[Closed] 18/09/2014.

[quote=big_n_daft ]
is is a lot bigger than that in the North west of England or Wales, both areas will be glad of the change in direction for MoD spending post independance
Aye - but one would assume that the MOD budget would also be less without the contribution of the taxes raised in Scotland?

My son is 4 and my daughter is 10 months. I am sure any decision made next year will not affect them?! Do we think we made our best decisions at 16?

Some of the decisions I made at 16 make this quite a disturbing prospect.

I'm sure not all 16 year olds are as stupid as me.

[quote=muddydwarf ]Probably not, so its up to the people of Scotland to educate them on the pros and cons...
or you could be as cynical as me and think the yes campaign is banking on immature and unformed opinions..
Myth. Any independent polling of teenagers shows a pretty even split between those in favour and those against independence. Strathclyde Uni recently had their own hustings and voted "no".

I am sure they will big and daft.

Here's hoping for vastly different VAT rates so we can do some cross border bike part smuggling.

Stevewhyte - it may or may not surprise you that many people in England i have spoken to about this want Scotland to leave as well.

Would be interested to see some stats on that if anyone has them?

and the army

The MoD said the upheaval would ensure more stability in the future as the army settled around the seven hubs.

They will be at Salisbury Plain, Aldershot, Colchester, Stafford and in the east Midlands. There will be two more hubs in Scotland – in Edinburgh and Fife.

how many in the North West?

Regards MOD spending, I've kind of got the impression that Whitehall has been winding down in Scotland more than south of the wall already. Due to just have the one RAF base for instance.

Aye - but one would assume that the MOD budget would also be less without the contribution of the taxes raised in Scotland?

the split of the budget isn't balanced in terms of where it is spent, there would be a significant rebalancing towards E, W and NI of the remaining 90%

It was Alan Hansen who said "you can't win anything with kids" and look what happened then
🙂

piemonster - Member

Regards MOD spending, I've kind of got the impression that Whitehall has been winding down in Scotland more than south of the wall already. Due to just have the one RAF base for instance.

[quote=big_n_daft ]
the split of the budget isn't balanced in terms of where it is spent, there would be a significant rebalancing towards E, W and NI of the remaining 90%
You'd like to think so ...... I guess things like airbases are more related to strategic location - hence the East Coast has loads.

Indeed, think of all the lovely cash a nuclear weapons base on the Thames would bring in.

True about Alan Hansen. Lets not have him as our first prime minister/president.

Well, the last Scots Govt figures i looked at showed that the gap between what Scotland raised in taxation and what she spent was approx 3.5 times the oil revenue, so the loss of the Scots taxes may not affect the MOD budget that much. Was a while back now though.

I've passed two RAF bases on my way down to Scarborough from Scotch corner big n daft, pretty sure there's a very large army training base on the road over from Penrith to Scotch corner too,there's also pretty big gun range near Carlisle too isn't there- believe they shoot tank shells into the water a lot- although I accept that may be run by contractors..
How many airbases in the whole of Scotland is there going to be in the next few years if govt plans go ahead? Of course, in the next few years Russia might start chucking more backfires about above the North Sea again and perhaps that decision might need reviewed!
Not getting into a shooting match (groan) about it, I don't claim to have specific answers to the question I posed above either!

You'd like to think so ...... I guess things like airbases are more related to strategic location - hence the East Coast has loads.

they will need something at Carlisle to intercept the cessna's Alex sends south to test E,W and NI airspace like Putin does

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21364559

http://forces.2day.ws/forces/section/ArmyBasesGarrisons/
Quite a few at the mo based in Yorkshire in the above list..? Appreciate that'll be changing though..

I don't think Yorkshire counts as the North West...

I've passed two RAF bases on my way down to Scarborough from Scotch corner big n daft,

do you need a compass and a map of the UK?

pretty sure there's a very large army training base on the road over from Penrith to Scotch corner too,

there's also pretty big gun range near Carlisle too isn't there- believe they shoot tank shells into the water a lot- although I accept that may be run by contractors.

How many airbases in the whole of Scotland is there going to be in the next few years if govt plans go ahead?

Of course, in the next few years Russia might start chucking more backfires about above the North Sea again and perhaps that decision might need reviewed!

my understanding is that the SNP plans do not include air superiority fast jet for their airforce

two army hubs, multiple naval bases, one RAF station more than the NorthWest has currently

Faslane is a decent sized slab of concrete. Not actually aware of any others for boats??

Prestwick is a single Sea King? How long does that gave left, not long.

Rosyth is.... Actually what the hell is Rosyth?

Rosyth is a Royal Naval Reserve base and Supply/Service base

My very bad- I was getting my west and east mixed up- still, north is north eh? Guessing we've not traditionally been worried about the north west of england being overflown by our enemies!
My comments about policy reviews were assuming that Scotland says no and current mod plans are pushed ahead btw..
Is Rosyth not just a big repair and maintenance port really?
With regards to the firing range- you've not heard of it? Really? Like I said though- prob run by private contractors these days eh?

I can't wait till we don't have to pay for the new trident and any further wars in the Middle East.

Faslane is a decent sized slab of concrete

don't forget the satellite sites

[quote=althepal ]
With regards to the firing range- you've not heard of it? Really? Like I said though- prob run by private contractors these days eh?
Are you not thinking of the one in Galloway that fires all the DU shells into the Solway?

Once again I must apologise profusely, the range is close to Kirkcudbright in Scotland!
Once again, my very bad for not being overly familiar with the local geography!
Edit- cheers Scotroutes- I was just googling that- honest!
I believe I did state earlier that I was no expert in these matters?

My very bad- I was getting my west and east mixed up- still, north is north eh?

you aren't helping yourself 😉

I'm not really trying to be honest! It's been a long day-but my poorly researched (googled) attempts at building a constructive argument mustn't detract from the overall imbalance in mod spending in Scotland compared to England overall eh?

mustn't detract from the overall imbalance in mod spending in Scotland compared to England overall eh?

Scottish independance will lead to a larger MoD spend in the north of England

many will see that as a bonus

I can understand how that would make a lot of folk happy in the area..
The east or the west though...? 🙂
If we do become independent it won't be my taxes being spent!
(Point about imbalance still valid though- without wanting to get into a North/south of England debate!)

athgray - Member

Do we think we made our best decisions at 16?

I think a significant part of the electorate can be trusted to make uninformed decisions, regardless of age.

The "Kids will vote for independence" thing is actually pretty interesting- as Scotroutes mentioned, independent surveys consistently show it's not true. Some suggest that they lean slightly more towards Yes, though that's a consistent age trend- 30 year olds are more likely to vote yes than 40 year olds, and so on. No shock, we grow more resistant to change and value comfort more as we age.

Why that's interesting, is that this isn't a shock to the SNP either, they've always known that the youth vote isn't a Yes vote. Now maybe they expect to swing that vote... Or, maybe they just think it's the right thing to do. Education's a political football, youth unemployment is soaring... And if you're a 16-year-old in work, then you have taxation without representation. Who has a bigger stake in the future than the ones who have the most future left?

By all means leave school, join the army, have sex, get married, go to prison, leave home, drive, but for god's sake don't vote!

I wonder what the British government will do with all that extra money that they used to use to subsidise Scotland once we leave.

* s****s *

Yay, less spending on the military in an independent Scotland. Let's call it 'bread not bombs'.

I'm not really trying to be honest! It's been a long day-but my poorly researched (googled) attempts at building a constructive argument mustn't detract from the overall imbalance in mod spending in Scotland compared to England overall eh?

You need to Google better - there is actually a significant defence underspend in Scotland per head of population - Scots are effectively subsidising English defence spending by about £1bn per year.

http://www.defencemanagement.com/feature_story.asp?id=16821

bawbag - Member

Yay, less spending on the military in an independent Scotland. Let's call it '[s]bread[/s] [b]deep fried mars bars[/b] not bombs'.

IGMC 😉

Just as it starts getting sensible again eh?

Not wishing to start a flame war, but has there actually been a decision from the EU about what happens if Scotland becomes independent?

No, it's a unique situation. However it's pretty unlikely that they would strip EU citizenship from several million citizens. Also, if Scotland suddenly gets kicked out of the EU, why should the rest of the UK automatically stay in?

EU membership isn't really a set of rules - well it is, but they bend or break the rules all the time, so it's really a negotiation. The question really is why would the EU not want an independent Scotland to be a member?

However it's pretty unlikely that they would strip EU citizenship from several million citizens.

No different that stripping several million people of British citizenship, no?

Also, if Scotland suddenly gets kicked out of the EU, why should the rest of the UK automatically stay in?

The rest of the UK is not the part becoming independent, and is not the part that would have to renegotiate. I think the term is "continuing state".

There seems to be bafflingly little certainty around this seeing as it's possibly going to be the most important issue for a newly independent Scotland. A bit of googling found this, which is as clear as mud:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21601242

However, the EU president's 'hypothetical' comments make it pretty clear that there would be no free ride. Scotland's response is downright worrying - hoping for common sense to prevail!

Also, it's not that unique a situation - take a look at the Basque country. I suspect that at least Spain would be pretty wary about Scottish independence and admission to the EU setting a precedent.

The real question is what name the remainder of the current UK would have.

It can't be UK because there's only one kingdom* left.
It can't be Great Britain because it's only half the island.

Londonitania?

Edit: forgot the Kingdom of Man

The whole "continuing state" thing is problematic - if Scotland is a new state not a continuing state, then we would inherit none of the national debt. New country, start from scratch. I can't see that being popular. The only other possibility is both countries are continuing states, so on an equal footing regards the EU.

By unique, I mean it's not happened before - it might set a precedent for Basque independence, but there's no precedent for this, apart from maybe the separation of Czechoslovakia.

The real question is what name the remainder of the current UK would have.

Little Britain.

As a southern Englishman I'd be sad to see the union broken, but perhaps its just sentimentality. I totally accept the argument that many Scots feel that it's not right that London governs their affairs. I reckon if I was Scottish I'd vote yes.

I think the future for the whole island could be defined by this vote, I hope that, whatever the result is, those on the losing side are able to accept and live with the decision.

Our two country's past, present and future are woven together, I hope that isn't overlooked by nationalist attitudes and policies from both sides of the border.

Indeed - think of the still strong relationships between most countries of the Commonwealth. Even with independence, Scotland would still be very closely linked to the rest of the UK.

I don't think the "continuing state" will be a problem in real life.

There's lots of points that can be made, eg Scotland has always been treated as a separate entity, there has been a recognised border since before Union, it has always had a separate legal system amongst others.

And in fact technically, thanks to Margaret Ewing, the Scottish parliament is a continuation of the parliament that was dissolved in 1707.

The whole "continuing state" thing is problematic - if Scotland is a new state not a continuing state, then we would inherit none of the national debt. New country, start from scratch. I can't see that being popular. The only other possibility is both countries are continuing states, so on an equal footing regards the EU.

It is quite conceivable that negotiations between Westminster and Scotland result in domestic affairs being separated with resources and debts being shared, whilst the EU itself still considers Scotland to be a new entity. I can't see any logical reason why the treaty of separation between the rest of the UK and Scotland would have any mandatory impact on the EU's decision regarding Scotland's accession. I can see that it might have impact, but I think it's highly unlikely that Scotland will be 'just let in' on the basis that it's dealing with its share of the UK's sovereign debt and assets.

Ultimately how assets and debts get shared is between Westminster and Holyrood, whereas entry into the EU is between Holyrood and Brussels. Two different issues, which might have some relation on each other, but I don't think a certain outcome on one equates to a certain outcome on the other.

A more pertinent question is will the rest of the UK still be in the EU in a few years? With the rise of UKIP and Cameron's in/out referendum, perhaps the best way for Scotland to stay in the EU is independence.

A more pertinent question is will the rest of the UK still be in the EU in a few years?

It's an important question, yes, but just a distraction to the discussion at hand. One for its own thread, perhaps?

Relevant in the context of The discussion though!

The position of the EU is that they will only give a definitive answer if asked to by the UK government
David Cameron has ruled this out. Why would he do that if he thought it would provide ammunition for the No campaign?

Cos he's feart?

I didn't know that, interesting... It is one of the elephants in the room isn't it, lots of people have opinions, even official ones but it's the sort of thing that you should be able to get a solid answer on.

As a englishman I'd like the opportunity for a UK wide referendum as to whether we should continue to accomadate scotland within the union.

Simple answer: if Greece, Ireland and Portugal can get in, then allowing Scotland in is a no-brainer.

As a englishman I'd like the opportunity for a UK wide referendum as to whether we should continue to accomadate scotland within the union.

Accommodate? Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK.

Why would he do that if he thought it would provide ammunition for the No campaign?

No idea, but it's not like he's renowned for joined up thinking

This is the bit I don't get. What's in it for the Tories? Why on earth do they want to keep us Labour-voting Scots hanging around so much?

Simple answer: if Greece, Ireland and Portugal can get in, then allowing Scotland in is a no-brainer.

Greece, Ireland and Portugal were already separate entities and members before the GFC. Scotland isn't.

ohnohesback - Member

As a englishman I'd like the opportunity for a UK wide referendum as to whether we should continue to accomadate scotland within the union.

That's nice. But I don't think you quite understand the meaning of "self determination". Now if you want to leave the union, that's fine.

It's a bit like when you go to a party, and someone you don't like is there- you can leave but you can't demand they leave. Especially when, like in this case, they bought all the drinks 😉

This is the bit I don't get. What's in it for the Tories? Why on earth do they want to keep us Labour-voting Scots hanging around so much?

I'm not entirely convinced they do want the Union to survive. There are pros and cons for them.

There's a loss off influence and prestige on the world stage, but at 8.5% of the UK population it's not a catastrophic loss.

And that's the best part of 80 seats less to fight against in Westminster. I'd guess its more to do with pride and not wanting to upset the Tory heartlands that I'd wager want the Union to survive.

Why would Cameron/the Tories want to save the Union? Well it could be that they have an underlying principle that the Union is sacrosanct regardless of any issues - or that they know that Scotland actually contributes more than it gets back. I'll let you decide.

Interesting discussion some of you are having here, I shall restrain myself from posting my usual puerile drivel and just lurk about.

Just one thing, the Tory party's full name is The Consrvative and Unionist Party.

In contrast to others, if this is the one vote we get, I see a No as a no-brainer. That's simply because there's no detail to vote for.

Were this part 1 of 2 which started negotiations and then part 2 was a vote on a specific deal on debt, taxation, EU, Defence, etc then a yes to part 1 might make sense now.

But, given the low calibre of Scottish politicians there is no prospect of me giving them a mandate to negotiate my family's future without a chance to approve the final deal. I fear the desire to gain independence would see unfavourable terms accepted just to get the result.

Do the English get to vote on whether we should keep them or not?

The Conservative Party merged with the Liberal Unionist party in 1912. At that time the "unionist" part was to do with the Irish question.

Oldbloke - what would happen on the event of Yes/No vote in your scenario?

Do the English get to vote on whether we should keep them or not?

I can vote, you have to live here though.

The Conservative Party merged with the Liberal Unionist party in 1912. At that time the "unionist" part was to do with the Irish question.

I did not know that, you learn something every day.

Do the English get to vote on whether we should keep them or not?

Nothing to do with nationality, all to do with residency. Anyone can vote if they're registered to vote in Scotland.

scotroutes - Member
Oldbloke - what would happen on the event of Yes/No vote in your scenario?

It would have to be clear there were two steps at the start.

Part 1 - Yes vote = "go negotiate, come back to us with a detailed proposal". No vote = "don't bother, we're not interested"

Part 2 would be binding on both Westminster & Holyrood.

Part 1 was the people of Scotland electing the SNP as the majority government. Part 2 happens on 18/09/2014. In the next 18 months the two sides of the campaign will hopefully provide all the details necessary to make an informed decision.

In the next 18 months the two sides of the campaign will hopefully provide all the details necessary to make an informed decision.

I really hope so, I'm currently on the fence but leaning towards a no.

Bawbag:

Electing SNP was not Part 1. That was a national election, not a single issue vote.

Even it it were, part 2 does not happen 18/9/14. There cannot be the detail of a deal to vote on at that point. There isn't time. If there were, I'd be delighted, but there won't be. In my dealings with policitians, they couldn't decide on the detail of their own headline policy within 18 months (it actually took 4 years), let alone conclude negotiations with multiple parties who are not so committed to the final goal.

If you want them to dot every i and cross every t before you vote, it's not going to happen. However there's nothing stopping you researching the issues yourself - become an informed member of the electorate. Decide for yourself whether you think Scotland would be better off independent.

For me, it's not about whether Scotland would be better off*, it's about self determination. Even if it costs us, I think it's worth it to be able to decide things for ourselves, to be able to stand on our own feet and make our own mistakes, and to be able to kick the nukes out.

*A Better Together "analysis" recently announced that being independent would cost every Scot the grand sum of £1 per year. Don't know about you, but I'd happily pay £1 per year to never have to listen to a Tory politician ever again 😉

oldbloke - I hear what you say about the "independence at all costs" folk but let's say it's a Yes/Yes, based on amongst other things a settlement with the EU. What happens if in, say, 10 years time a different Scottish Government is elected that decides to pull out of the EU - or there's a re-negotiation of some other sort?

I think Ben, you may have just convinced me to vote.

All the sentimentality of the Union washed away at the mere thought of never having a Tory prime minister.