Nah mate, you said there was no such thing as a trans woman. That’s not remotely the same thing as arguing they shouldn’t be allowed to compete..
@kimbers, respectfully:
and it is more complex than that, length of time post hormone treatment etc make a big difference
I posted very pertinent science on that - which clearly stated that the physiological advantages from before birth and growing up are retained - and no amount of hormone therapy can reverse this.
I'm not being a pedant - I would like genuine progress to happen in this discussion. However, to have genuine, real progress we can only argue on evidence. So if you've got some real scientific evidence that can refute the above I would dearly love to see it.
Genuinely. Really would. Because I prefer to treat the world as it actually is, not just how I would wish it to be. So to begin to amend my position I need to see hard evidence that backs up your claim.
Until then, trans women are women in gender alone. It's the sex part that is the issue, not the gender.
I don’t know who you are or what your circumstances are, but you have taken my generic opinions about men entering women’s competitions and it sounds like you’re applying it very personally to what sounds like mental health problems with your son. I’m sorry to hear about your son.
Like I said, theotherjonv is a far better father and also a far better person than I am.
The worst thing is, I honestly don't know if you have no idea what you are saying (and therefore you're just brutally insensitive and ignorant) or if you know exactly what you are saying (and therefore you're just an arsehole).
Given that you are now shrouding your abuse with plausible deniability, I'm going to take a guess and say arsehole.
I'll take that ban now, thanks.
Come on everyone. You know it all gets shut down when the insults begin.
Keep it to the issues.
It’s ok that another person doesn’t agree with you. Sometimes you just have to accept that and step away.
It’s ok that another person doesn’t agree with you.
This particular person doesn't agree that transpeople exist.
You cool with that?
It’s ok that another person doesn’t agree with you. Sometimes you just have to accept that and step away.
It's the STW/lefty classic of "you can have free speech within the bounds that I have decreed to be acceptable"
If this were a court case, would jonv be allowed on the jury?
Declaring that there is no such thing as trans women is a perfectly valid opinion. I happens to be my opinion too - there are men, there are women, and there are trans people...the end. The best way to classify them from a sporting perspective would be to include them in their own separate category, or in a fully open category in addition to the men's + women's.
As it happens I have your exact quote saved as it's still on my clipboard. And it's pretty far in my mind from 'generic opinions about men entering women's competitions'
But the mods deleted it so I won't requote.
@mark and others; please don't take a ban sticking up for me and don't shut this thread over it either. Although it can cause angry reactions, I believe in people's right to an opinion as I also believe in the right to be able to call that opinion out. There is a lot of good debate on this thread and the views of a few shouldn't be able to collapse that. Plus, sunlight is a great disinfectant and I'd rather have them out in the open having views debated than having their views deleted.
(exception made for trolling, people taking views just for shits and giggles can FRO)
there are men, there are women, and there are trans people…the end. The best way to classify them from a sporting perspective would be to include them in their own separate category
So, all trans people in one category? Those that others (not you) term trans women competing with those that are termed (not by you) trans men? That would be okay with you? Why is that?
Not that anyone ever watches videos or clicks and reads links, but this seems appropriate about now:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zDap-K6GmL0
...
Not that anyone ever watches videos or clicks and reads links,...
They do and it's been posted before 🙂
It’s ok that another person doesn’t agree with you. Sometimes you just have to accept that and step away.
Really? And here's me reading over the forum thinking people must only come here for their love of hot topic debates and arguments 🤣
and it is more complex than that, length of time post hormone treatment etc make a big difference
theres also not really a consensus on natural hormone levels
Hormone levels are irrelevant. By creating a hurdle out of some medical or surgical procedure you are deliberately excluding a large number of folk who identify as their non-birth gender. If you are truly in favour of inclusion then self-id should be sufficient.
Declaring that there is no such thing as trans women is a perfectly valid opinion.
It's a valid statement in some circles. In others it would lead to you being told where to go.
STW is under no obligation to provide a platform for people to say blatantly ignorant and transphobic shite,. Nor is it under any obligation to provide a platform to people who tell people who make transphobic comments where to go.
They decide what is allowed to be said on their platform.
Maybe they'll decide that saying 'Transwomen aren't women and transmen aren't men' is not OK. If so, you'll have to decide whether you want to stay or not.
Maybe they'll decide that saying 'Transwomen aren't women and transmen aren't men' is OK. But telling people who say such things to **** off with their transphobic ignorant comments is not OK. In which case I'll have to decide if I want to stay or not.
Either way, ball's in STW's court.
I was going to write a comment but this topic is so ridden with linguistic pitfalls that I'm terrified of getting any of the terms wrong so I can't be bothered. Why does it bring out the worst in people? On both sides.
Bruce in a "censor people I don't agree with or I'll leave" rant...
... 🙂
By creating a hurdle out of some medical or surgical procedure you are deliberately excluding a large number of folk who identify as their non-birth gender. If you are truly in favour of inclusion then self-id should be sufficient.
there are already rules on hormone levels for (non-trans) athletes at the moment, thats part of the problem; as the baselines are so variable, we also dont (afaik) test to for XYY males who have certain advantages eg height, should they be banned? , it gets even more confusing when you look at XY DSD conditions, which is where Caster Semenya got into trouble, but as I understand it she is not banned from competeing in womens sports?
“censor people I don’t agree with or I’ll leave”
They said that if they are prevented from saying what they want, they would have to decide whether to leave.
Hormone levels are irrelevant. By creating a hurdle out of some medical or surgical procedure you are deliberately excluding a large number of folk who identify as their non-birth gender. If you are truly in favour of inclusion then self-id should be sufficient.
That's a good point. If you want to favour inclusion, acutally favour inclusion.
As addional point, Brucewee's mentioned a few times that trans women have been eligible to compete in the olympics for 20 years. But until 2016, when the policy was changed, one of the critera was to have had full (inc genital) reassignment surgery. I doubt there's anyone here who'd agree with that policy.
All I know is, if you’re trying to convince someone else their opinions are wrong, and yours are right, do you
a) tell them they’re stupid, insult them and try and shut down the debate (dare I say it, cancelling them).
or
b) reason with them using well thought and referenced opinions.
c) Accept that it is just that, an opinion and as long as there's some reason behind it then there's also a validity to it. No matter how convinced you are of the opposite. But accept there is no convincing that can be done, so move on.
But there is also a way of expressing that opinion that remains respectful and appropriate, and a way that isn't. While i disagree with a lot that has been posted on here and v/v it has, and largely remains a good debate.
I got temporarily triggered by some very specific language that to a parent of a trans teen was either very insensitive or frankly, and let's call it what it is, was deliberately chosen. Chosen because it is regularly used by certain parts of the anti-trans lobby and therefore immediately put them in that group. A group I find very hard to respect even if I have to bite my tongue and allow them an opinion. I won't repeat it, but those that saw it I think will know. A real dog whistle phrase, and then to hide behind 'All I said was....' is even weaker.
[edit for clarity, having re-read and recapped. The language being picked up and quoted by others, eg: ' transwomen don't exist / are not women / are men' is NOT the objectionable language, even if that is still objectionable. What was written and then deleted, either by the poster or STW - I think the latter - was much worse, even if plausibly deniable. Dog whistle, as I say]
I hope I haven't tried to shut people down for holding a different opinion. In fact I've tried at all turns to respect that their opinion is more popular than mine (I still don't concede that makes it right though....particularly on a matter that isn't 'proveable')
and to others - worried about using the wrong phrase. Don't be; if it's an honest error it'll be pointed out and you can learn and move on, with an apology if needed. It took me a long time to sort some things out and I still have to refer to the Oracle (my daughter) from time to time.
And others, don't be so unkind to the error, it's a complex area and everyone has something to learn.
Just let's all be nicer
(but not to ****s and trolls. They deserve everything they get 😉 )
I really am not doing a very good job of being out of this discussion, am I?
There's a certain level of agreement that needs to happen before any debate can take place.
In this case, that level is, 'Transwomen are women and transmen are men.'
If someone denies the lived experience of people and even their existence, how are we supposed to discuss the technicalities of how society is supposed to work within this paradigm? The problem is that we (as a society) are still fighting over this phrase, and it is a fight because we are talking about the right of a minority simply to exist.
Saying, 'You can call yourself what you like, I don't care, just don't expect me to buy into your illusion' is not being tolerant. We all require a certain amount of buy in from society to be able to simply live our lives. As the majority on here are white, middle aged, straight, cis-gender males we have little direct experience of having to fight for society to accept our existence or trying to get society to change to a new more accepting paradigm (some of us do, obviously, but by and large our existence and ability to do more or less whatever we want goes pretty much unchallenged). We have simply always been accepted and have no frame of reference for fighting just to exist.
So yeah, if you are saying, 'Transwomen aren't women and transmen aren't men.' or even staying silent when others say it, what are you doing here discussing the technicalities of how trans people should be included in society?
Shouldn't you be on another forum discussing how best to snuff out the trans-threat?
@BruceWee Just to be clear, do you think female women should be able to meet without male women (because you believe Trans Women are Women)?
I ask this as this whilst the thread 'was' about sports you, and others, have made it into a wider discussion, using ever increasing emotive language, culminating in you latest post where you use the phrase 'snuff out'.
In Brighton and Hove, there are no single sex rape support services. A women has raised a legal challenge to try to secure one single sex support group. Along with numerous death threats she was told to 'f*ck off and make your own group'. So, she did just that. TRAs have emailed every venue in Brighton & Hove warning them not to allow the group to meet, and the (male) venue managers are now saying they cannot use their facilities unless they include males in the group. This is happening right now.
In this case, that level is, ‘Transwomen are women and transmen are men.’
But it's not that simple is it? Because if 'Transwomen are women' then how can we have a debate about whether it is fair to ban women from female competition. By the very fact that we are talking about it implies that there is a difference between Transwomen & cis women. The nature of that difference & the reality that there is a difference is what is leading to the ban.
That’s a little like a catholic asking that we all agree with transubstantiation or virgin birth. before we can talk about religion. You’re asking that people agree with 90% of what you believe before a discussion can take place.
It is perfectly valid to believe that trans people should be treated with respect and dignity without believing that anyone can (I really am trying to be respectful here, but I’m not sure what terms are polite) be born in the wrong body/change sex/be the opposite sex of what most people would assume them to be.
There are no doubt people who would say:
“There’s a certain level of agreement that needs to happen before any debate can take place … that level is, ‘Transwomen are men and transmen are women”.’
There doesn’t seem to be much point in the two groups having a little debate just with those who already mostly agree.
edit: my word this website does some strange things when you copy and paste
@rainper That's horiffic. I also saw your earlier post about the lesbian speed dating event - that was blatant homophobia (there's no other word for it).
There are no doubt xxxxx malfunctioning websites who would say:
<span style=”caret-color: #000000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’; -webkit-tap-highlig
FTFY
I ask this as this whilst the thread ‘was’ about sports you, and others, have made it into a wider discussion, using ever increasing emotive language, culminating in you latest post where you use the phrase ‘snuff out’.
Actually, I was out until someone decided to make some pretty disgusting comments that don't really need repeating and then decided to follow it up with something equally shitty even if it may have seemed reasonable without the context of the initial post.
But yeah, I don't know about the situation in Brighton and Hove but it sounds similar to a lot of other situations where there has been an attempt to exclude trans people and people who don't accept that exclusion have not taken it lying down and have been very vigorous in their denial of the exclusion of trans people.
It sounds like, if we start discussing this, it's is going to be a 'Should trans people be allowed to exist' type debate. I'm done having that debate, to be honest. Yes, they should be allowed to exist and society has to buy into that existence.
You're either going to find your own way to deciding that trans people should be allowed to exist or you won't. Either way I'm not going to be the one to get you there.
And because I know how this is going to go, lots of people are going to think you mean a women's shelter rather than a Rape support service. You are probably not going to correct this misconception so I'm doing it now.
Anyway, I don't have to solve this tonight. Demographics is thankfully going to do that job for me.
As a general rule I hate young people but sometimes they aren't so bad.
@brucewee I think rainper was perfecly clear in her wording, and it's also very clear that the group whose independent existence you will not tolerate is female humans.
I don't have much to contribute, but I just wanted to say hats off to you @theotherjonv. I have learned so much about this issue over some years now from your posts, and IMO you always strike a very balanced tone in these threads even in disagreement. Thank you.
And because I know how this is going to go, lots of people are going to think you mean a women’s shelter rather than a Rape support service. You are probably not going to correct this misconception so I’m doing it now.
I don't see how I could have been any clearer. The woman is trying to set up a 'support group', where woman who have been raped can meet up in a supportive and safe environment to talk about their trauma. So far, her attempts a book rooms (at a variety of venues) have been rejected because the group is for females only.
FWIW absolutely support that ^.
I'm all for inclusion but in this case I understand that has to take a back seat to a more important need.
There are some horrible people on both sides of the argument and I have no time for either.
There’s a certain level of agreement that needs to happen before any debate can take place.
Failed at the first hurdle.
But telling people who say such things to **** off with their transphobic ignorant comments is not OK. In which case I’ll have to decide if I want to stay or not
Fair enough, abuse isn’t tolerated here.
You could always disagree with people without resorting to abuse.
But I'm glad the majority of the posters on here have expressed opinions and experiences calmly and cogently. As ever,I've learned more about this tricky issue
So far, her attempts a book rooms (at a variety of venues) have been rejected because the group is for females only.
Yes, because what they are trying to do is set up a 'separate but equal' group. History tells us that separate but equal is one but not the otherr. In a climate where trans people are fighting for their right simply to exist I can see why the attempt to set up such a group would generate a lot of anger.
Transwomen are raped and assaulted at a higher rate than ciswomen. The existence of such a group would just add to the trauma. Not only did you get raped, you're not even good enough to get support from the 'real' women. It's compounding an already traumatic experience.
Would you expect a 'white only' group for women who have been raped by men of colour to be able to book rooms? It's something that nobody would have questioned in the past but society has bought into the idea that whites are not the important group compared to others.
That's what I mean by buying into the idea as a society. People are not allowed to exist only when it's convenient. Inclusion is the default and exclusions have to be carefully considered and thought through for all parties. Not just the one that matters.
Was the effect on transwomen considered when this group was first set up, or do their feelings and experiences simply not matter when compared to ciswomen?
Fair enough, abuse isn’t tolerated here.
Saying 'transmen aren't men and transwomen aren't women' is abuse.
Genuine question @rainper what is the objection from the venues, that the group isn’t inclusive? At what point is the objection raised? If I wanted to book a room for a mid to large number of people, I wouldn’t tell them the subject, as what business is it of the venue what is discussed?
Or I might tell them something different, how would they know? Is it a (understandable) requirement to have no men on site at the time?
For cryin' out loud BruceWee, you do come out with some rubbish. What are you, a transhumanist or something? Listen to women instead of dismissing them.
Casting woman as having the same position of power wrt to male people as white supremacists have to black people is cloud cuckoo land.
@tomhoward
Venues often ask what a booking is for. If it's mentioned in any way that the event is for women the next question will be 'it is inclusive?'.
Hormone levels are irrelevant
In society in general maybe not, but in sport they most most definitely are, as are chromosones. Simplistic statements to the contrary ignore the complexities of the society in which we live and in particular sport. If you try to force people into a simple yes/no response you'll get just that and probably won't like the answer.
When dogma takes over from compromise you force people into camps. Having both the notions of biological sex and gender, and accepting that both have their uses and limitations gives more freedom to those concerned than saying "If you are truly in favour of inclusion then self-id should be sufficient." Because it isn't sufficient in some situations but is in others. In competetive sport I consider it insufficient because there's no longer a level playing field in women's sport but on the MTB club Saturday ride I'll happily identify people as they self identify because everyone wins.
A round in circles we go to the next simplistic argument.
Listen to women instead of dismissing them.
I do. Many different women who, it may surprise you to learn, don't all think the same way you do.
Including Hannah. Or is she the wrong sort of woman?
Anyway, this place is thoroughly depressing. I think I'll look at some statistics on the levels of acceptance of transpeople among women and young people to cheer myself up.
I’m going to say that whilst the attitude by some folks on here to trans woman hasn’t been great, the attitude shown to woman by certain posters is pretty disgusting as well
Sport is sport. We should agree to disagree. But when it comes to people being raped, I think it’s fair to say I fall strongly on the side of the woman’s right to pick and choose exactly who they want to share the experience with
i don’t think it’s a subject anyone should be trying to score virtue signaling points around tbh..
Reading around I note that Brucewee has been cherry picking data along with some whataboutery. If you're interested here's a link with a fuller picture, it's obvious what it's about, if you don't think it relevant to trans in sport, don't click.
https://www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-assault-and-the-lgbt-community
I suggest you start a thread on LBGT hate crime, Brucewee. It'll probably be very short and very dull because I don't think you'll find anybody supporting violence against minorities.
I think I’ll look at some statistics on the levels of acceptance of transpeople among women and young people to cheer myself up.
Here is one to cheer you up… my daughter’s partner is a trans-woman… so that’s more than “acceptance”… it’s love, support, understanding and commitment. Things are much better for younger trans people now… especially if they can live and work with people their own age… there is very little backlash as long as older people aren’t involved. Sport, well “competitive” sport, is a whole different experience though… maybe because the organisations involved are run by older people, I dunno… but in that area everything is going backwards. People feel, and in many instances are, totally excluded. And far from safe.
FWIW absolutely support that ^.
So do I. As long as there is also support for trans victims (they’re at risk just like anyone else of violent and sexual assaults), then the existence of support groups they can’t join for those that require that to feel safe shouldn’t be prevented. I don’t know the background of what’s going on in Brighton, I’m talking more generally.
