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tpbiker
Free Member
So does this mean us Neanderthal guys now get the Friday Kylie thread back? 😉
😀 - there's plenty on Mumsnet that makes the old Friday Kyle seem very banal!
In all seriousness - I've seen this done before (over my wife's virtual shoulder) - There were remarks made behind the safety of the 'gender wall' about specific male users and about the male of the species in general that would not be tolerated on the main open forum or if gender reversed. I trust STW won't fall into that trap.
Mention trying to clear a jump with brain fog to a bloke, and they don’t get it, bless ‘em.
and that’s my point. If you have those conversations behind closed doors how are you ever supposed to get men understanding? It just reinforces stereotypes and lack of understanding
A good idea as it might help get some more fresh faces on the forum. I have found it a bit weird that having seen the explosion in women on the trails, uplifts and just riding generally that so few have popped up on the forums, facebook groups etc.
Good that it’s going to happen.
A shame that it needs to happen.
Agreed.
If you have those conversations behind closed doors how are you ever supposed to get men understanding?
I'm guessing because maybe it's good to be able to have a conversation without having to explain context all the time? Possibly in the same way as it's different chatting about a cycle race with people who really follow it and understand rather than people new to it. Both are fun and fine but they are different conversations
@tjagain apology accepted, thank you.
@FunkyDunc, it's not so much that men make it difficult to post, it's that the big hitters (which is who I meant by cool kids, but couldn't find the words at the time) tend to be men, dominate the chat, and I end up rolling my eyes and stop responding.
A number of excellent points have been raised here as to why a women's forum is a good idea.
Mansplaining happens a lot, usually it's meant well, but there's a lot to be said for having a space to discuss shared experiences without explaining all the contexts. Avoiding the undermining comments and digs meant as jokes @drprofessor "The Ayotollah will be pleased" really?
Being able to call someone out on their comments without the slight level of anxiety that accompanies it because you're just waiting to get flamed. I have no issue with constructive arguments, I love discussion and having my opinions challenged, but years of being gaslit creates an oppressive feeling whether men like it or not.
I suspect I'll flit between each forum, and will be very interested to see the topics that come up. I don't tend to sign in much nowadays, but I might start doing so more.
well said, although TBH the fact that you have to explain the desire / need to have a separate space validates the need for it.
On the subject of education and understanding, would it be acceptable to allow read only access to everyone else where they can passively observe without getting in the way or is that a no go?
Genuine question, apart from anything else it allows scraper bots to do the usual Google promotion that seems to go hand in hand with this site and reach a wider audience, draw in more members and hopefully become a virtuous cycle.
and what about the blokes who aren’t interested in the circle-jerk shit-fests. Think this says more about the overall state of the forum, esp off topic threads, than anything else.
A fair point - some of us, me included, don't always understand when to stop.
Jeepers tone is so hard to convey sometimes. My first post was intended to be sympathetic and supportive but clearly I hit the wrong tone and thats not how it was seen. 🙂
I have found it a bit weird that having seen the explosion in women on the trails, uplifts and just riding generally that so few have popped up on the forums, facebook groups etc.
Perhaps they just have better things to do than score virtual points on forums!
My wife and daughter are life long horse riders, I don’t think either of them post on horse riding forums. They are in a few local Facebook groups though. But horse riding is a female dominated sport, and I guess cycling is a male dominated sport. So their online presence follows the sports demographic.
Sad it’s needed though - the more we are ‘told’ we are more inclusive as a society the more divided we seem to be getting.
I've been here a very long time, and I remember the last time this was muted ... circa 2009 ish I think. We used to be quite a niche little bunch of MTBers hanging out here but unsurprisingly that has evolved as our funny little pastime has become more popular. With my rose tinted specs on, I think the forum of old probably felt a bit more friendly, the banter more measured. But, if you ignore all the 'big hitter' willy waving there's still a host of kind, helpful people here willing to offer support and advice. I've said it before, but STW has an exceptional knowledge base and there really isn't any life question that doesn't go unanswered, which is in itself quite remarkable.
Back whenever it was, I wrote quite a long, reasonably eloquent (at least that's how remember it!) email to Mark about why STW shouldn't start carving up the forum for us women. I should have kept that email .. but suffice to say I feel the same now as I did then. I come to STW for bikes and silly off topic stuff, if I want to chat menopause .. as I really am getting old now ... there's plenty of other places for that stuff. It's my personal preference though, and others will of course feel differently about it, as the comments so far reflect.
the big hitters (which is who I meant by cool kids, but couldn’t find the words at the time) tend to be men, dominate the chat, and I end up rolling my eyes and stop responding.
We all feel like this.😀
there’s a lot to be said for having a space to discuss shared experiences without explaining all the contexts.
We all feel like this.😀
Being able to call someone out on their comments without the slight level of anxiety that accompanies it because you’re just waiting to get flamed. I have no issue with constructive arguments, I love discussion and having my opinions challenged,
We all feel like this. 😀
Maybe we need another sub forum (I'd ban politics) 😂
Some of the patronising to-ing and fro-ing on this thread just highlights the problem. Great idea, but a bit of a sorry reflection on the STW.
and what about the blokes who aren’t interested in the circle-jerk shit-fests.
Just ignore the threads which end up like this, there are one or two every week, but they are the minority.
I just stop looking once it passes a certain threshold, then once it gets closed, go back and see what exactly tipped it over the edge!
Thanks Hannah and STW for setting up a women’s forum. I’m another long-term STW’er who has mostly stopped posting and occasionally lurks around quietly.
There’s a few reasons why I’d appreciate a women’s forum:
- a chance to discuss some women-specific issues (eg training and performance during periods or the menopause) knowing that all the other people reading it will have had direct experience
- shared experiences and frustrations (eg when I did the Marmotte road events in the Alpes and Pyrenees there was no women’s jerseys available, only men’s which were too big!)
- an opportunity to have a laugh, chat and generally slightly different banter with other women
Like others, I’ll carry on using the main forum, same as I spend most of my time happily riding with guys, who are all great. But a women’s forum offers something a little different and valued, same as my rides with my female friends.
Lets give it a go, with an open mind, and see if it is something that women want 😊
As an aside, amusing parallels with the UCI trans thread the other day. There, some very opinionated men were saying that someone being consigned to the "open/general" class wasn't exclusionary or a problem at all. But now it's them being kept in the "open/general" forum, some aren't so keen! 🤣
I have found it a bit weird that having seen the explosion in women on the trails, uplifts and just riding generally that so few have popped up on the forums, facebook groups etc.
Perhaps they just have better things to do than score virtual points on forums!
Interesting question, do fewer women post because they're not interested in forums, or maybe spend less time at keyboards? Personally, I pretty live in front of a keyboard, so the barrier to access a forum in zero. Is it just there are more men stuck in front of keyboards in IT roles?
No actual idea...
Interesting question, do fewer women post because they’re not interested in forums, or maybe spend less time at keyboards? Personally, I pretty live in front of a keyboard, so the barrier to access a forum in zero. Is it just there are more men stuck in front of keyboards in IT roles?
No actual idea…
I have four close female friends (Programmer, Project Manager, Graphic Designer and a Manager for a soap company) in my mountain biking circle, not a single one posts on forums.
Reasons range from 'no time' to 'CBA'.
Seems like a top idea and I hope it thrives.
Can we have a forum where we can safely argue about thread pitch?
As an aside, amusing parallels with the UCI trans thread the other day. There, some very opinionated men were saying that someone being consigned to the “open/general” class wasn’t exclusionary or a problem at all. But now it’s them being kept in the “open/general” forum, some aren’t so keen! 🤣
If that's in response to my "observe but not take part" suggestion I was definitely on the other side of that argument.
I'm not suggesting that because I feel left out but rather if women get the chance to discuss things uninterrupted by opinionated blokes then it helps understand their perspective better. Maybe they want to keep that to themselves, I don't know. All I know is I'd rather find out women's (and indeed anyone else's) points of view on things from the horses mouth than from a (typically) old white guy.
Either way, it's not my place to say what should or shouldn't fly, it was just a suggestion and my opinion ultimately counts for nothing here.
@sue_w:
There’s a few reasons why I’d appreciate a women’s forum:
– a chance to discuss some women-specific issues (eg training and performance during periods or the menopause) knowing that all the other people reading it will have had direct experience
As a bloke I'd appreciate that discussion happening in front of me. How else am I supposed to learn stuff if it happens behind closed doors?
– shared experiences and frustrations (eg when I did the Marmotte road events in the Alpes and Pyrenees there was no women’s jerseys available, only men’s which were too big!)
Same thing. Don't see why that can't happen out in the open.
– an opportunity to have a laugh, chat and generally slightly different banter with other women
Blokes had that, but we were told very clearly that our desire for women-free spaces is wrong and exclusionary to want it. So the men-only clubs were shut. And frankly, I do think we've gained more than we've lost from that tbh.
However, I do get it. If STW wants a women-only forum and women want it then fair enough. Who am I to argue. But I will say there's a bitter taste about it that I can't quite articulate. I'm not a fan of single-sex spaces in general and despite obvious frustrations (on both sides of the supposed divide) I think men and women do better together than alone.
and what about the blokes who aren’t interested in the circle-jerk shit-fests.
They can identify as 'She/Her/Hers’ in their user profile if looking to get nicer, less aggressive posts. Or they think they will. While the tone may be different it won't necessarily be any better and just adds to a sort of segregation that may not really help anything but worth a try. When women get together they can talk just as much shit and be just as opinionated and horrible as men you know!
I would imagine the number of posts would be 1% of those in the 'main' forum but be interested to see how it goes and whether the low participation is because of the atmosphere or simply because not as many are actually interested enough in cycling to frequent a forum about it..
I think this is an interesting experiment that will be good to learn from.
As others are pointing to, I wonder whether a more equitable solution may be a forum with a commitment of some kind to "be nice to each other".
I see we're sill at men telling the women why the idea is a bit flawed; at least we've only had a couple suggest we need a men only forum in response. I guess that's progress.
I've a couple more thoughts - that's all they are, not advice or demands.
1/ I'm happy of course the emphasis is on identification / using pronouns, if the qualification was FAB I'd be less welcoming. So thank you STW itself (staff etc.) that I think do get it.
2/ Tricky one this. Truly hypothetical because my son isn't a cyclist but until recently did have periods and so discussions on what impact that has on riding and training would have been very relevant. Likewise, advice on shorts and saddles..... who knows but maybe there's a man on here right now who might not be able to get that support and also feels excluded.
It's just a thought
a forum with a commitment of some kind to “be nice to each other”.
I think that's a basic rule of the ones we have! And I think that generally holds, with a few exceptions.
Maybe we need another one that doesn't have the rule, enter at your peril.
As others are pointing to, I wonder whether a more equitable solution may be a forum with a commitment of some kind to “be nice to each other”.
Being nice doesn't mean you aren't in the way.
I think - which is always a dangerous start so I am happy to be roundly shouted down by those in the know - you've missed the point. It's not about separating the males from the females it's about including as many females in the conversations they want/need to have without clutter. We certainly could all weigh in on struggling with jumps* but really the general riding issues etc that span all gender identity are regularly discussed if there is a smaller subset of issues rarely discussed there is merit in that having somewhere to discuss it without interruption either well meaning or just obnoxious.
Equitable doesn't mean fairness by treating everyone the same it achieves fairness by ensuring people are supported/given the space/whatever to close any gap.
Maybe, what do I know, other than being a baldy I don't have many sociatle obstacles in my path.
*I for one can contribute alot to how bad jumping skills can be.
I hope I haven't missed the mark with the above. I also didn't actually voice my support!
There's lots of interesting studies about online forum segregation, a couple that are of interest in validating some of the assumptions in this thread below my synthesis:
My Synthesis: The more relavant the threads, the more engagement and conversation happens. Which suggests if women do have their own spaces, they will likley interact more.
There are a few other studies that caution segregation can cause echo chambers to form, and that stereotypes can become overly enforced - as some discussion moved out of general, open forums, is not seen by the other sex - meaning a lack of awareness and the opportunities for shared learning are missed. For example, the issues around cycling and periods/menopause etc.
For me, I'd intepret this as a trade off between the purpose of the forum - is it about generating and exchanging conversation, or is it about raising awareness of often unsaid issues?
The final point that's raised is one of segregated forums tending to become more hostile in nature - that's dealt with by good moderation, and as the studies are largely focussed on political forums - I'd suggest this is less of an issue with a cycling forum.
Links to interesting studies:
'The Dynamics of Message Selection in Online Political Discussion Forums: Self-Segregation or Diverse Exposure?' by Hyunjin Song, Jaeho Cho, and Grace A. Benefield (2020). This study found that people tend to self-segregate in online political discussion forums, meaning that they are more likely to read messages from people who share their political views.
'Ideological Segregation Online and Offline' by Matthew Gentzkow and Jesse M. Shapiro (2011). This study found that people are more likely to interact with people who share their political views online and offline.
'Disclosure of Gender Identity in Internet Forums: A Case Study of Saudi Arabian Forum Communication' by Nadia A. Al-Sharif (2013).
'The Role of Segregation in Online Communities' by Daniel A. Greene and Joseph B. Walther (2015). This study examined the role of segregation in online communities. The researchers found that segregation can lead to both positive and negative outcomes. On the one hand, segregation can help to create safe spaces for people who are part of marginalized groups. On the other hand, segregation can also lead to echo chambers and make it difficult for people from different groups to understand each other.
'The Effects of Segregation on Online Political Discourse' by Thomas J. Johnson and Natalie Jomini Stroud (2017). This study examined the effects of segregation on online political discourse.
Just to point out I think this is a great idea.
comments without the slight level of anxiety that accompanies it because you’re just waiting to get flamed.
This is true in general, I’ve had self imposed breaks and changed my posting style to avoid it. I’ve lost count of the many times I’ve written something to contribute my opinion and not posted / deleted it for fear of that. In that context STW often isn’t a nice place to be, it’s an anxiety trigger that leads to muted opinion.
However as said by others above, there are some great threads to read and some very kind people on this forum, I hope this principle promotes more of those to come to the fore, male or female.
Another one here who thinks this is a great idea.
I'm an occasional poster here, I guess my posts are 50% genuine attempts to solve other posters' bike or life problems and 50% smartarse comments. I don't think (I hope) that any of them have been hurtful, but I'm a bloke so I wouldn't know.
I do know though that on group rides (like the old Sideways Cycles night rides) that females joining in for the first time can feel mighty intimidated.
I hope it has a long and positive life. (And me and you too.)
If the target audience think it's needed then bring it on, I have been saddened by some of the comments on the main forum in the past so can see why it would be seen as a good thing. Quite often I've seen people assume posters are male and not even consider that they might not be which would get irritating after a while.
However I've also learned a lot from the women posters as well that relate to my partner and daughter e.g. from discussions on personal safety, and the article on period pants which I passed on. It would be a shame if these sorts of articles/discussions became solely the reserve of the women's forum.
In regard to thinking spaces should be all inclusive, I disagree, females really do need a separate 'Loo' and if you don't understand that or the reasons why, then have a good think.
Another interesting point mentioned above is fewer women post on forums through lack of time.
My job isn't computer based. I don't sit in front of a screen and when work is finished, there isn't always the time to catch up, at most I possibly read STW for 10 minutes and post once a day.
Women still 'seem' to bear the brunt of child care, housework and care of an elderly relative, therefore time is limited.
This new forum may or may not get off the ground, we can but hope.
@Bunnyhop - you've outlined the reasons for my discomfort very well. If, as you say, there are a number of reasons for women not being frequent forum users, I'm afraid that the main forum will be lessened when those few interactions take place elsewhere. I'd much rather the main forum was a place everyone was comfortable. Shame it can't be that.
<p>The other way round this would be to remove gender biased names, then no one would be able to tell who is male or female ?</p><p> </p><p>Just a random curve ball. Mrs FD works in a very make orientated environment as an orthopaedic surgeon. Many of the men have big egos and very outdated views. However she can directly challenge their stance. Many managers in the NHS are female, and she says their unconscious bias is in many ways worse and harder to over come.</p><p> </p>
@scotroutes - I along with several other women will still be using the usual forums. I for one find this site the very best for all kinds of Information.
The hope is that women will find the 'new forum', then join in with everyone.
The other way round this would be to remove gender biased names, then no one would be able to tell who is male or female ?
My username is my surname, what gender am I, can you tell?
As a bloke I’d appreciate that discussion happening in front of me. How else am I supposed to learn stuff if it happens behind closed doors?
It's not being arranged for the convenience of "blokes", and their education is not the responsibility of forum-using women. 🤷♂️