Zwift meetups and social rides ?

On the flat you need much less but on the hills it gets eaten up real quick.

It think this is the issue. As the front Hares say they were doing 270W even DrP would be hard pushed to reel them in on the flat. But on the hills even us weaker Bs can catch the C’s and D’s pretty quick.

So next time we should set the gap based on the type of course?

, but when we set off after 5 mins the board had the Hares with a 7 min lead?

That was weird but I guess it's down to our average pace being lousy when we set off due to five mins stationary at the start which is I think why my (our?) power figure seems low for the amount of effort it felt like.

Thanks for organising weeksy and well done all.

Sorry I dropped off the chase folks.

So on the first race we did it was 30km & 275m of climbing, front-loaded and we were caught mid-way through the route.

Tonight's was 40km and 200m, the climbing was pretty balanced throughout and we comfortably stayed away.

So I reckon for the next one we do the Figure 8 route which has 30km and 235m of evenly split climbing but do 3 or 4 groups?

Without more numbers I'm not sure more groups works too much, you want a decent sized blob (10 ish). We might get 3 groups on a C/D, B/C and A/B.

On the flats I could hang with the hares (trainer balls up excepting) as a recently promoted to (crap) cat C rider and the group wasn't shelling that many riders or that fast.

I was the Hound version of Sad Ken!

I knew I shouldn’t have been a hound as I was a big lump of handicap

Congrats to the Hares it was a nail biting finish.

Great fun and a punishing work out

Loved it, cheers all & Steve

I wouldn't change too much - If we'd organised ourselves a bit sooner we could have made it much closer, and a couple of folk have already said they didn't have the legs this evening. The Hounds will just need to up their game!

we weren’t shelling that many riders or that fast.

Well I averaged 325w and 3.8w/kg - and that wasn't fast enough to catch you!!!

That fast as in those that did get dropped generally it was at the back end of the ride, not the pace of the blob.

Hounds will just need to up their game!

230w Av tonight

Last Thurs TTT was 290w so fair point

Well I averaged 325w and 3.8w/kg – and that wasn’t fast enough to catch you!!!

Yeah they were motoring some this evening. The time didn't seem to come down at all for the first 20 minutes or so.

The blob effect was very noticeable. I averaged 225w and didn't find the pace too hard. On Sunday Danger took 5 minutes out of me on a 30 min climb so it does come down to the aero.

I think Richmond would be a good course for a Hares and Hound.

@dangeourbrain - Virtual commute tomorrow (Thursday) morning?

I'm in the real office again tomorrow robbo, could do a very short gentle one if you fancy but a lot of temporary lights makes it a bit slower going and actual road miles plus TTT means it'll need to be a gentle pace too so I'd need to be done about 20 past.

Happy to organise it though and I can always just bail out early if you and Craig are both in.

I'm about Friday morning of either of you are about?

What time and how far is the virtual commute? I’ve another ride I need to do tomorrow on another app but think it’s quite short.

Sounds like I missed another fun one, sorry but it was just too nice up here to sit on the turbo indoors, the weather's been a bit pants recently, and my new bike won't ride itself 😀

Usually just after* 7am start, distance etc depending on route but try keep it reasonably short 30-40 min. The main point was to drag me out of my pit at a reasonable hour rather than take advantage of the extra time in bed that WFH affords me but its also been a good way to tick off a few of the shorter routes.

(I did 7 first time and it was heaving at the beginning so ended up chasing and pushing to get clear of the bunch, not conducive to a gentle warm up for the day!).

Can make it 6.45 and do a gentle 30 mins around the flat roads of Watopia or something? It is only a recovery spin for me so no need to push myself.

See pre-covid I did early exercise so WFH or WFO similar just WFH affords longer distance in the am potentially.

If it’s a 30m I could do that and the other ride as that should be 30mins too.

Though today is a well needed rest day so no commute!

I could do 6:45 and that would be a perfect warm up to the other ride.

@dangeourbrain - you have sent the invite. It says THursday commute club but is scheduled for Friday?

Ah bugger it. Invites sent. 6.45 tick tock [s] 17k [/s] 19.2k and pancake flat so should be round that in 35-40 and if not I'll just drive to the office!

(just noticed zwift insider gives a "lead in" distance)

you have sent the invite. It says THursday commute club but is scheduled for Friday?

Ahem. No it doesn't. Ahem. Maybe you misread it?

Thanks and I see it’s swapped days 😉

Perfect thanks for sorting

Ahem. No it doesn’t. Ahem. Maybe you misread it?

Oh yes must have - have accepted 🙂

Also want to tick off Surrey hills at some point this week

Ticked off this morning...oh my god it was sweaty!!

@Dangeourbrain seen your invite for tomorrow commute club, I'm unsure as yet as I was intending to give the legs a rest after 2 days of hills. I'll see how I feel in the morning and join if I can...but I will be slow...be warned!

How was Surrey? Its a fair chunk of altitude on that route.

No trouble at all re tomorrow, we're heavily subscribed with 4 takers (including me this time since I was corrected on Sunday). Its a very flat route from what I can tell and as ever its what ever pace suits at that time to be honest (especially since I really must pull my weight in the TTT this week after 2 DNF and a no show)

Surrey was not too bad, Fox and Box hills were nothing major, although the finish is at the top of Fox hill, so you end up going up it twice! The longer Leith and Keith hills are the leg sappers, yes its quite a bit of altitude, same as the Alpe more or less.

I think Sundays hill ride must have done something to the legs as I'm definitely seeing improvements in speed up hill (maybe not compared to you lot!!) and I'm not really noticing the 5% to 7% hills much, I'm able to get up them at a reasonable rate for my hefty weight.

Like I said, I'll be there tomorrow if the legs allow, it might do me good to have a flat spin to keep the blood flowing.

I think Sundays hill ride must have done something to the legs as I’m definitely seeing improvements in speed up hill

That's good to hear. For the moment it just feels like it's taking a lot out of my legs and not putting anything back.

Lol we only started with a few. A couple of monsters in the wrong groups if you ask me.
Pessbee and zilog, you boys are too fast for me!!!

I'm not really that fast anyway - I have little stamina for sustained effort, I'm just really good at drafting now 😃 Always beat a few people in races putting out more W & W/kg

I think the main issue re. you guys not catching us was there were loads of us working together so the draft was massive... when not on the front the pace was easy allowing recovery which meant I could do a minute or so on the front at 300w+ then drop back and recover at <200w. Practicing my tactics for the TTT tomorrow lol. IMO doing a ride like this at steady pace is really inefficient, plus if you are "surging" at the front constantly rather than exploiting the draft you're wasting so much effort as it's not adding to the group speed.

IMO doing a ride like this at steady pace is really inefficient, plus if you are “surging” at the front constantly rather than exploiting the draft you’re wasting so much effort as it’s not adding to the group speed.

This was posted on the other thread but I'll pop it here too.

It's noticeable how much harder the front rider has to work in a proper draft train to achieve the same speed as a churn 350 vs 300W. Overall there's a power saving there but for it to be effective you need to be able to hold that 350W for a few minutes at least before dropping back so if that hares had a churn at the front at 300W and then recovering back in the pack the hounds in a small train need to be able to put out 350W for 5 minutes, recover for a bit then repeat, that's a lot of extra W just to hold even.

so to make up the ground we'd need to be 8% higher for the 5 minutes and 12% for the speed from the churn so that's 375w on the front to catch you.

(phil's 325W avg over the hour comes out at 354W avg over the 55 min we were moving and he wasn't on the front for at least 2 maybe 2.5 minutes of that.)

As a hare it was fun and a good workout, I averaged 229W and was pretty much ok, tried a couple of times to put a turn in on the front, but found it hard to manage my power and stay there for long, had to concentrate hard on staying in the blob, which I think was good practice as this is a skill in itself in Zwift (not being a group road rider IRL I have no idea how realistic this is).

I'd done the race up the Alpe the day before and legs were a bit tired, so was glad it wasn't much harder really, but never felt that we were going to be caught, if the hounds had been closing faster it would have added to the tension and we would probably have pushed the average up a few watts, but might have resulted in dropping a few (inc me probably).

Could do a re-run on same course, but with a 3 minute head start, that would have put the Hounds about 30 seconds behind I think at the end, which would have been more exciting 🙂

@dangeourbrain sounds like it was lack of numbers/tactics that meant you didn't gain much ground then, that 354W average is well over 100W more than any of the hares averaged! I guess the head start was too great as well & lessened the tension, altho a lot of the hounds said they weren't really feeling it that day so who knows how much closer it'd been if everyone had fresh legs.

I'd like to have another go on the same course, same handicap - let's see if we can get ourselves organised and fresh - it might still be difficult, but I think if we manage to get a group working together like we've managed in the TTT we should get very close

that 354W average is well over 100W more than any of the hares averaged!

The thing is with 15 or 16 of you, each of you only need to pull on the front at 300W for 4minutes total to finish at the same time as we're getting if all 6 hounds pulled at 375W for 10 mins each.

Once back in the pack at 200W for you folks that's 206W average over the hour.

For us at 375W then back in at 250w that's 280 average. The 280 is fine to hold for an hour for me, 375 for 10 minutes, less so!

But yeah, I'm with Phil. Another go on the same course, same setup. We've just got to be willing to burn the slower folks pushing hard on the front early then shell them back out of the hounds and not slow up just because they're throwing up at the side of their turbo.

Sounds like a plan then!
I like the idea of staying on the same course and only changing things very slightly until we find the right competitive balance.
I guess the composition of the hares and hounds will change each week but nothing to be done about that.

On the objective, what exactly do the hounds have to do to "win"?

Is it just one hound beats one hare?

I would say that at least one hound has to be in front of all the hares at the finish, whether it be "time's up" or an actual finishing line.

whether it be “time’s up” or an actual finishing line.

Oh yeah, let's not to that again, the lack of finishing line was pretty soul destroying!

For us at 375W then back in at 250w that’s 280 average. The 280 is fine to hold for an hour for me, 375 for 10 minutes, less so!

TBH with 15-16 hares and only 6 hounds, the hounds can shell who they want, they're still not catching them. Especially with a few guys who can pull 270w turns. As i said earlier and this isn't a dig, just an observation, people like Zilog and PeesBee really shouldn't be in hares if me and Magnetodog are in hounds, both of them are as good or better than me or Dog... So what chance do we have.... Answer is, none really.

I am happy to switch to hounds for the next one, even if it's just to balance the teams & have me lurking at the back 😃

Maybe we should have an intermediate group? Hounds, hares and pedigree chum?

I am happy to switch to hounds for the next one, even if it’s just to balance the teams & have me lurking at the back

With Phil the beast out there, we're all lurking at the back. LOL

I certainly don't want it to be easy, but it has to be slightly viable for more than just 1 hound. I'm more than happy to put a shift in on Zwift, but last night, 14 mins in we were still showing as 6:00 behind lol.

ok me & Pees if he likes can switch to hounds, everyone can try TTT tactics as much as poss to maximise draft, try again same course/setup?

With Phil the beast out there, we’re all lurking at the back. LOL

So same course, same time next week? Tuesday evenings seem to get good attendance.

the thing is, if the hounds are effectively just soloing it behind 1 guy, and the hares are working together, even Phil can’t close the gap as demonstrated!

I agree, but not sure there's much alternative, he's a bucket load stronger than us. Even on my very best days i've got a 275w average over an hour, on my normal day, 260w.... yesterday, about 225 lol.