[Closed] Zone 2 training - worth it?

MrSmith/vdubber: any chance either of you two fine gents could point me in what you consider a better direction please, rather than just being smug gits? 🙂

Jase, did you do Friel's 30 min test to calculate your LT & HR zones?

I know a few cycle coaches (qualified) and they laugh at threads like this with all the spurious misinformed ideas gleaned from reading a book or a few blog posts.

It's actually people trying to learn and figure things out for themselves. I'm sure coaches would rather us cough up £60/mo or whatever and blindly believe whatever they say.

I know a few cycle coaches (qualified) and they laugh at threads like this with all the spurious misinformed ideas gleaned from reading a book or a few blog posts

I'd sooner follow the advice on some of 'these threads' (although I know whose posts I'd heed, it's not everyone's) than pay for some of the coaches I know of. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

I've had a few coaches over the years, but only really stuck with one, as I liked his approach and techniques (which worked), and still broadly use his advice now, some years on. Having a piece of paper doesn't necessarily make you a good coach, and you have no idea of the qualifications or palmares of some of the people you seem so quick to rubbish.

For starters, a lot of 'coaches' are far too prescriptive IMO, part of what you pay for with bespoke coaching should be adaptations to changing situations and circumstances. No point doing a 4 hour ride if you're completely wrecked (for whatever reason), too many adopt a 'one size fits all' approach.

Middle aged men are the worst to coach because they never follow their program as they think they know best

I assume you're either including yourself in that, or are you paying someone to help you finish second to last in the vets at the Gorrick in February? I'd start listening to the advice on this thread! 🙄 **crosses fingers that's the right Gary Smith**

2 is to do with burning fat, rather than carbs

yep.. i'd agree with that.. I did a fitness test about 4 years ago (with andy wadsworth)

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I was told I was absolutely appalling at utilising fat as lower levels. I think he said he'd never seen sub 50% at such a low heart rate.

I then did about 4 -5 months of zone 2 rides or an hour at lunch time (amoungst interval training) This figure went up to 84% at 125-130bpm

So yes.. you don't need to do loads of zone 2 training. This figure also improves through diet (I did the idave at the same time). I also lost 6kg

I was also told your zone 2 range can change.

After 1st fitness test I was given these zones to work in

Zone 1 = <125 beats per minute.
[b]Zone 2 = 125-144 bpm[/b]
Zone 3 = 144-165 bpm
Zone 4 = 165-178 bpm
Zone 5 = 178 + bpm

After 5 months of training and another fitness test zone 2 completely changed

Level 1 = <140
[b]Level 2 = 140 - 158[/b]
Level 3 = 158- 172
Level 4 = 172 +

Is that not because you went from 5 zones to 4...

Is that not because you went from 5 zones to 4...

maybe i didn't need the 5th one anymore 🙂

I assume you're either including yourself in that, or are you paying someone to help you finish second to last in the vets at the Gorrick in February? I'd start listening to the advice on this thread! **crosses fingers that's the right Gary Smith**

You ran out of luck there.

I would never pay for coaching, buy a power meter or £2k aero wheels as there's far more life enriching things to spend money on that trying to spend my way out of having zero talent on a bike.

You might see my name very near the bottom on a vets SE league cross race next year but that's just a bit of fun and I'm not about to start a training program for that

So you're quick to dismiss everyone on here roundly as having no idea, which you can't tell, when you yourself, definitely have no idea? Still, at least I know which side of the "heed advice or ignore" line you fall!

And why, exactly, are you on a thread called "Zone 2 Training", if you have no interest in training. Seems pretty clear what it's going to be about, isn't there a photography thread for you to troll?

There are probably more life enriching things to be doing than trolling this thread too 🙄

And why, exactly, are you on a thread called "Zone 2 Training", if you have no interest in training

I'm interested in a laymans attitudes/ideas to training (and other professions that people think they can do themselves from reading a book or watching 5min YouTube tutorial)

Last winter I was doing 2-3 high intensity interval sessions with one long social (ish) ride of 3-4 hours at the weekend.

I found the mix very beneficial beating all my PB's early in this years TT season.

I think the high intensity intervals are where it's at as they lift your overall fitness regardless. Your top end benefits as does your endurance at lower outputs.

Not sure if that helps, just my experience.

MrSmith, can't really see much "interest" being expressed in your condescending troll.

Ps, on the turbo I use TrainerRoad and the Sufferfest vids.

I'm interested in a laymans attitudes/ideas to training (and other professions that people think they can do themselves from reading a book or watching 5min YouTube tutorial)

How do you know there are no qualified coaches here? You must be immensely bored.

How do you know there are no qualified coaches here? You must be immensely bored

How do I know there are?

Bored? No, about to pop out for a fartlek session to liven the day up.

How do I know there are?

You don't, but you're making scathing and patronising comments assuming there aren't.

Have fun, don't rush back, good time to be doing longer rides.

Fartlek sounds suspiciously like training to me.

Ok I've just done a short ride to try out Z1/2 as described by Friel.

Z1 was faster paced before but minimal effort so ideal recovery pace I would say.

Z2 was much quicker than before (using Z2 zones based off Max HR derived from formula as found on random web page!) Not enough effort to make legs burn but enough that breathing was noticeably heavier at the top end of Z2 (although still OK to hold conversation I would say) in comparison to previous Z2 which was barely any more effort than a brisk walk.

Does that sound like the right amount of effort? I could see that a non-stop 3 hr ride at that pace would certainly feel like a workout (although not a leg/lung busting one but probably not slow/boring either).

Is it the case then that Joe Friel Z2 is significantly faster paced than "traditional" Z2 or just that working out the zones from a formula and/or according to max HR is just spectacularly crap?

Is it the case then that Joe Friel Z2 is significantly faster paced than "traditional" Z2 or just that working out the zones from a formula and/or according to max HR is just spectacularly crap?

Mostly the latter. See what trickydisco said. His max HR wouldn't have changed but his zones did. HR isn't great for this sort of thing either as it can be up or down for a given effort depending on lots of factors.

Yeah I appreciate that. Would love to get a power meter but can't really afford/justify it at the moment. (Definitely keeping an eye on the more affordable options that are coming out/in the pipeline now).

Does the level of effort for Z2 sound about right to you?

I did the performance test at Loughborough Uni earlier in the year and the HR zones they gave me were much higher than is been used to. Zone 1 for me was now easily zone 2, meaning I could train on long rides at 80% max HR.

They also gave me some good advice on some hard intervals. 4mins on and 4 off. The on's were flat out and the offs as easy as you needed. Repeat until you can no longer keep good form.

did the performance test at Loughborough Uni earlier in the year and the HR zones they gave me were much higher than is been used to.

I'm not entirely sure. They told me that anything below 80% max hr could be classed as zone 1 and that any long ride (3 hours upwards) should be 95% at this level or below.

They really seemed to know their stuff as they assess all the top uk cyclists wiggins included. They did a proper lactate threshold test too. That one broke me!!

BTW my previous HR zones were based on the ones The Garmin software provides.

When on the flat in favourable conditions I could be zipping along at 15-16mph

I got around to doing Friel's LT test last night (after simply using a formula for max HR for the past week).

The zones are significantly higher and closer together. Z2 is now pretty much what Z3.5-4.5 was for me before. Does this sound right?

definitely sounds a lot more like it. you'll get a good measure for 'beginner' competitive cycling. when fitness has improved and you get to wanting to up it, a proper test may be beneficial

@zilog6128

The zones are significantly higher and closer together. Z2 is now pretty much what Z3.5-4.5 was for me before. Does this sound right?

I did the Friel test recently to compare the results against other ways to set zones and found the same thing. According to the British Cycling calculator, my Z2 is from 111 to 136 bpm right now, but according to Friel it should be 134 to 144 bpm.

My max HR is 178 and zone 1 for me me is bellow 145 bpm I think.

My max HR is 178 and zone 1 for me me is bellow 145 bpm I think.

Really? That sounds very narrow. My MHR is 203, but Z1 was lower than that when I had it properly tested. I forget the number!

I'll dig out the info when I get home and pop it on here.

But presumably Zone 2 will vary between the different models, I didn't think it was universal. i.e. You'd test yourself with BC's method if you were going to be using their training plan and likewise for Friel?

My RHR is approx.42, Max HR 186 (almost irrelevant as not used by Friel in calculating zones) and LT 162 making my Z2 for Friel workouts 131-144 (IIRC).

If I was going to use a plan from another provider I wouldn't necessarily use this range for their Z2 work.

All of my turbo work is based around my FTP. As mentioned your HR can vary depending on many things.

My max HR is 178 and zone 1 for me me is bellow 145 bpm I think.

It does sound a bit narrow, but then there are many different definitions of the various zones and everyone's physiology is different. Just looking at what's in TrainingPeaks, you have zones based on lactate threshold, max HR, max and rest HR, max HR and LT, and within each of those you have half a dozen different methods, and then each one of those typically defining somewhere between 5 and 10 different zones! So what's zone 2? 🙂

Power seems a bit more clear cut, though still just estimates.

Though the goal of the different zones is to aid in targeting the various energy systems, and that's different for everyone and can only be determined through proper testing (and you need to be able to interpret the results as I don't think there is a "standard" output.)

What's zone 2 indeed!

Equally, what is fitness?

Compare two Chris's - Froome and Hoy?

Here's the thing.

Everyone, EVERYONE! Responds differently to training.

You have to work out what makes YOU go faster. Took me 15 years.

Zone X is just a particular coach's thing where they think it's good to ride to get a certain effect. There's no general definition.

For me I just wanted some structure to my winter training with repeatable figures that would (hopefully) show me improving. The program's that are available on TrainerRoad work for me and the monthly fee is cheap as chips (£6 I think) and you don't need a power meter.

I think the days of just smashing out loads of steady miles in the winter are coming to an end. If you can find something that works for you, and train smart with quality rather than quantity then the winter can be very beneficial.

I had 'Cyclists Training Bible' on ibooks for well over a year and read it once or twice but it didnt really grab me.

However, 'MTB Training Bible' is just a more user friendly book all round in my opinion.

To all the nay sayers, I would argue that the book (MTB Training Bible) is not dogmatic at all. In fact, he goes to great lengths to emphasise the flexibility needed to make a plan work.

The step by step way he guides you towards your plan is so simple to follow.

Also, there is room in there for all the other things people advocate. A large part of the base phases are about 'speed' skills which refers not to outright velocity but to the actual physical act of riding or if you prefer- skills sessions. So prety much any riding you do can be matched up with the relevant phase of the plan but you will end up doing it in a more balanced fashion.

Even a cursory glance at the block pattern recommneded weekly session will show a wave-like rise and fall of training stress.

I would urge anyone who is craving a plan but gets put off by either the thought of it or the ill-informed white noise that surrounds his very name now, to buy MTB Bible- its a good read if nothing else.

As to whether it works, well tune in next year to find out but the whole planning thing is a fun winter hobby in itself 😀