D'oh + 1
Out of curiosity, what do they do ? Or put another way, what would you do if it’s not Z2 as per Crosshairs thoughts ?
Some of them just have ace genetics - I suspect, for example, that I could have spent my life mirroring Nick Craig's training / riding and he would still cruise off into the distance on every ride. Likewise, Pogacar isn't the rider he is solely because he does a shedload of zone 2, he is prodigiously gifted to start with.
Bottom line, you're not aiming to be fast in Pog terms, you're aiming to be fast enough for your own needs / wants. For a lot of us, just riding a fair bit, enjoying it and maybe topping up the top-end with some intense intervals / smashing hills for a laugh is going to be enough for that.
The curse of Zwift and smart trainers etc, is that it's thrown us into a world of repeatable metrics none of which measure simply how happy you are with your riding. I particularly love that people spends hours on Zwift training like a dog so they can do races on Zwift. It's like that terrible metaverse ad. Anyway, I get the fascination with this stuff, but not to the point where I'm prepared to sit in zone 2 on a turbo. On the road is a different matter.
Sorry, I don't want to come across as argumentative, I just don't really see how you can train zone 2 consistently indoors without killing all your brain cells in the process. Maybe that's the point 😉
I just don’t really see how you can train zone 2 consistently indoors without killing all your brain cells in the process. Maybe that’s the point 😉
It was the OPs point : ) If you can do Z2 work done with a brisk dog walk/jog, maybe the next Q is does that benefit cycling muscles anywhere near the same way as Z2 on a bike outdoors would - does Z2 work cause localised changes or is it a general cardio system change?
Likewise, Pogacar isn’t the rider he is solely because he does a shedload of zone 2
Aha... who's his coach?
I'd like to know more about that too, since replacing lots of sweetspot with Z2 (or Z1 HR on the 3 zone model) last autumn I found I was much fresher and able to ride hard for longer when spring/summer finally rolled around.
We'd also had a dog and was walking roughly an hour a day, although much lower down in the Z1 range. Often wondered if that may have contributed, possibly in some small way?
Anyway, I get the fascination with this stuff, but not to the point where I’m prepared to sit in zone 2 on a turbo. On the road is a different matter.
Turbo z2 is for when it's too shitty, dark or both outside to ride.
I just don’t really see how you can train zone 2 consistently indoors without killing all your brain cells in the process
Netflix.
Not sure where I mentioned it recently- far too many Z2 threads going on around the web 😂
But Adam Hansen got second in an early season race on a diet of mostly hiking because his team never sent him any wheels. His coached concurred it was great base.
Aha… who’s his coach?
Yeah, I know who his coach is. My point though is that he's a genetic freak, mostly the rest of us are in potential fast donkey territory. He could probably do nothing at all and ride faster than all of us.
He still has the same physiology though. The work drIsm has been doing with George Brooks is about how beneficial Z2 training is for everyone. In fact it’s most important of all for pre-diabetic and diabetic folk!
Yeah, I know who his coach is. My point though is that he’s a genetic freak, mostly the rest of us are in potential fast donkey territory. He could probably do nothing at all and ride faster than all of us.
Of course but even genetic freaks train hard.
From Cyclist.co.uk San Millán on Pogačar -
Is that ability to recover genetic? ‘In my opinion there are three things,’ says San Millán. ‘The main one is genetics – he has that recovery capacity. The second is his mentality. Three weeks in a Grand Tour can be psychologically hard for anybody but Tadej is very calm. He doesn’t feel the pressure, the stress.
‘The third thing is that we’ve been training a lot to improve his lactate clearance capacity and increase mitochondrial function, which of course is partly genetic. And what that means is that day by day he is not as tired as the others.
I did the Ironman without touching a bike for 6 months except 2 vomit inducing 2 39 minute spin classes a week. Then only did 6 bike rides before the race, the third ride being 102 miles at around 18mph without stopping which is fast for me, I know its not for many on this thread.
However I was running at least 5 hours a week in Zone 2 and swimming about 4 hours again all in Zone 2 for most of the time before I got on the bike. So I’d say the benefit is transferable especially with some high intensity specific training thrown in.
I’m about 20 mins into this and dr Seiler answers a lot of things we’ve discussed quite well.
I wanted to go and see him deliver it live but couldn’t make that evening sadly.
Apologies if I’ve missed it, but as an example, if I have 7 hours of time per week to train, that is 3 hours on a Sunday and one hour four times a week. I currently do:-
Sunday long steady ride. Struggle to keep it in Zone 2. Pretty much every hill takes me to Zone 4 HR.
Monday is a 45 min Zone 2 spin. Boring as heck, but indoor.Treated as a recovery ride.
Tuesday is a hard 1 hour to 1:30 interval session on Sufferfest.
Wednesday is a shorter interval session on Sufferfest.
Rest day Thursday.
Friday is a zone 2 easy ride.
Rest day Saturday (family day)
Should I bin of those midweek intervals and just do zone 2? But then do I treat my long ride as the 20% hard ride and do intervals by hammering hills etc?
I was coached previously, was lucky enough to be part time so focused on my racing. I did mainly lactate threshold training, which appears to be what is being discussed above. Being honest I always struggled with understanding it, hence why I needed a coach to tell me what to do.
And apologies about making this about me, I’ve tried to understand what is being said but it makes my brain hurt translating it into a personal approach.
I do have longer to train but would really struggle with the zone 2 rides indoors. I work away in the week so they are all gym Wattbike rides.
I love tackling other peoples training conundrums but I’m a fat Cat 3 so take everything I say in that context 🤣
I guess it depends on what your goal is- and when. Specificity gets more important closest to any event.
But if it’s just for health and general fitness then you can do more or less the same all year round.
Would this be feasible?
Monday- switch to day off
Tuesday- sufferfest HIIT 1h
Wednesday- 30min easy endurance
Thursday- 90min upper Z2
Friday- 60min easy endurance or upper Z2 if feeling good.
Saturday- rest
Sunday- 3h ideally mid-upper Z2. Buy more gears 😉
That will give you 2/10 training days as HIIT.
I’d look at Tuesday and Thursday as your days to seek progression. Really smash your Tuesday intervals and really push the top of your Z2 on a Thursday.
Friel talks about splitting workouts into either breakthrough or recovery. Then planning your week to roughly alternate the two.
Thanks Crosshair, I should have said my goal….just to race Crits again next Spring. Previously was 65 to 67kgs, FTP was 307. As the races are only an hour, the focus really was on HIIT. My blocker was my ability to recover quickly, as i’m sure you know, every corner becomes a sprint out of it, every hill the same. When I was younger this was OK, but really become apparent that it was my weakness as I got older….49 now, stopped racing at 46. Plan on racing vets next year.
Your schedule looks good. Will have give it a try from next week. Might mean getting up early on a Thursday to train….I travel back home on a Thursday night after work. Don’t think missus will be pleased if I’m 90 mins late as I stopped by the gym!
With my previous training regimen being so focused on crits, I honestly got to the stage where I hated cycling, I was shattered all the time, progress felt like it wasn’t happening. I’d turn up for a race raring to go, but as soon as the pace went up I’d feel exhausted, the metallic taste of blood in my mouth straight away….if that makes sense?! Im just getting the love for it back after a year of the bike….and my FTP has hit rock bottom (210!! Stop laughing at the back!!) I’m still able to do fairly long rides, not quick, but at this stage it’s just time back in the saddle.
And good point re easier gears. I’ve got Campag EKAR running 40t at the front and 42t rear, great on the road, but off-road I really could do with a couple more gears….38 front me thinks. Thanks again!
Approximately 90 mins hard for 7 hours so I’d probably do the first half of the Sunday ride in Z2 (personally I’d use the 3 zone system and keep my HR below 75% of max), then intervals to take up a good chunk of the second half.
Since you’ve already activated the higher energy systems and would need around 30 mins to drop back down it’s seems pointless to try to shoehorn any more Z2 in so make the most of that second half.
Then bin off the midweek intervals in favour of Z2
Or all day Sunday nice and steady if you can, HR can rise a little on hills but only for very short durations…then Tuesday intervals and easy on Wednesday or vice versa?
Caveat, IANAC just my interpretation!
Should I bin of those midweek intervals and just do zone 2? But then do I treat my long ride as the 20% hard ride and do intervals by hammering hills etc?
This is what I'm considering, if only so I can enjoy the weekend rides and do hills/smashy gravel bits/sprinty muddy bits. Just aiming for 3hrs Z2 during the week. I don't honestly think I have the dedication to manage it all indoors so might consider gearing down the winter road bike and being ready to grab any opportunities when the weather is reasonable.
This week for me was recovery week on my TrainerRoad program and today I did my 1.5hr z2 ride outside rather than on zwift, so much nicer even if I did whack my hip going down on a slippery wooden section of river footpath! 😩
If I wanted to do regular 1.5hr or longer sessions I'd need a rocker plate for the trainer.
I opted not to do the long outdoor z2 I had planned cos I knew it was going to rain in a cold wet windy kind of way and I think I've got a touch of the sickness my wife has. So I'm heading out to the garage in a bit and I can come back in if I feel weak.
I found a perfect route around the Ochils that was largely pan flat for 2 hours and culminated in a long gradual climb, so I managed to stay reasonably close to Z2 for 2hrs then do 20 minutes of sweetspot before the descent and rolling minor roads home.
Mostly felt really good but not for the first time when trying long easy rides I seemed to get my eating all wrong and ended up in a hopelessly cranky foul mood for the rest of the day (not helped by the standard sore hip I get after virtually any ride now and our exceptionally disobedient 5 year old spotting an easy target 🙄).
Still debating a softer saddle or *something* as I was getting quite uncomfortable after 2 hours when I've managed 6 hours gravel on the same saddle in the past. Not helped by being unable to stand up out of the saddle for any duration for fear of heart rate spiking...
You can still stand up in z2. Just change up a couple of gears and keep the speed the same.
Yep, I need to do 30 or so pedal revs stood up every 20mins to loosen the legs back out. Well I don’t *need* to but it feels nicer.
I just make sure I don’t push any harder. Your HR goes up as you’re using more muscle mass (arms and core)- not because you’ve necessarily gone out of zone as it were.
HR goes up as you’re using more muscle mass (arms and core)- not because you’ve necessarily gone out of zone as it were.
I did wonder, I tried to keep an eye on speed even when standing, convinced myself halfway round that I *needed* a power meter but I think I'd rather spend the money on a new saddle 😎
Aargh. Have been slowly getting used to the Z2 workouts on the rollers, the time does pass a wee bit slowly but they are becoming more bearable, can comfortably do an hour before 'rewarding' myself with a bit of intensity (e.g. 1 HR Z2 yesterday followed by 15min high sweetspot).
Problem is I fixed an issue with my rollers yesterday (the resistance magnet was making contact with the rotor on the drum, noisy!) and it has completely changed the unit resistance, so now I need to relearn the 'virtual' power zones all over again 😭
Really just need to pony up for a power meter I think but have just sunk £100 into some new winter tyres 🙄
^ If you're working to just under aerobic threshold for Z2, is there a reason a PM is better than a HR monitor? I thought you could go to higher or lower HRs to hit a given power level. So on a tired day your Z2 may be over aerobic threshold, whereas your HR may be the better guide of how much O2 you're needing at that effort level? (idk, asking rather than advising)
Good question! I've noticed more variability in heart rate at Zone 2 than at higher intensities.
e.g. for sessions when the breathing test and virtual power on the rollers suggest I'm at zone 2 I've seen heart rates anywhere between 135 and 145.
But ultimately if Z2 is all about measuring work done by muscles then that's just a measure of power isn't it? Heart rate is secondary.
I would try to get better at RPE but it just seems so dependant on external factors like motivation/mood/temperature etc.
HR is affected by other things not just getting oxygen to muscles. It drifts upwards during the session, for starters, and could be affected by ambient temperature probably and what you've eaten or something.
I think that’s the biggest (only?) revelation in what drISM has been saying…
On the days you are really pushing your z2 on, you need to be at the “talk test” rather than an arbitrary percentage of either HR or power.
Then power just helps you see your progress (you’ll be pushing more watts at the same lactate) and your HR will probably not change too much but you will see your decoupling (how far apart your power and Hr become over time) improve.
But ultimately- you can do his protocol with neither power or heart rate data just as effectively 👌🏻
you need to be at the “talk test” rather than an arbitrary percentage of either HR or power.
My fundamental issue with this is how inaccurate I think the talk test is. I've even found myself wondering if singing is different from talking? does it matter how loud you are talking? what about talking to yourself, is that different because there are no pauses while the other person speaks?
I'm sort of joking but sort of not, I don't like the talk test, was really hoping there was a more repeatable, accurate alternative.
For me though, I think the benefit of Z2 will always be that I'm not panning myself in midweek then getting sick or injured, so long as I'm reasonably close to Z2 without going over I'll probably be doing well.
That’s it- to be honest it’s more important as a cap than an absolute.
I find I get to know my talk test / ease of breathing through nose levels and HR level match up pretty well and from there I work to that level or just under - you have good or bad days, you have higher HR a day or 2 before getting ill, HR does change Vs output after 3hrs or so at steady Z2, etc. But all in all, agreed, it's mainly about keeping a lid on it 80% of the time so you can go all-out the other times, which seems to be an effective way to be quicker.
But ultimately if Z2 is all about measuring work done by muscles then that’s just a measure of power isn’t it?
Heart rate is secondary.
I thought Z2 was more about O2 demand level and thf HR and breathing rate were more of a guide than muscle power output on that day. Could be over-simplifying or wrong though.
So following on from my preivous post... I upped the wattage from 185 to 200w, and held that for an initial 60 min.
It seems that's the wattage required to keep my HR in zone 2:
Will up the time to 80 min, then 100, then aim for 120 min...
Needs a good film, tbh!
DrP
You don't know what your Z2 is in power or HR without a lactate test.
You also can't really ride to it without a power meter. You can find yourself punching out extra efforts without seeing your HR change much, but as above that would be affecting the oxidative stress on your body and making it a different workout. If you've never used one you will be astonished at how hard it is to get your effort down to z2 on a climb and up to z2 on a descent.
You don’t know what your Z2 is in power or HR without a lactate test.
True I guess...but you can, like the vast majority of the population, figure out that you likely sit somewhere in the middle of a bell-shaped-curve of likely power and heart rate bands...
DrP
Well, I have to say that I'm really looking forward to racing against folks that have spent all winter doing 7hrs of 'zone 2' + one interval session per week...
Good luck all!
Lolz @Jamz 🤣🤣
I feel absolutely amazing on it to be fair. Even got away in a zwift race last night. Big attack and then just ‘made it say 400’ until the gap was 8 seconds. Ended up averaging 330w for ten minutes until I got caught.
That was after an hour ticking off route badges beforehand and 90mins on the mountainbike at lunch time.
The other day I averaged over 300 in a 55min race… at low tempo HR!
It’s partly just insane levels of freshness but also you can feel yourself coping with the lactate. The blocked legs never arrive- your HR just keep going up instead.
Looking at intervals.icu I’m on 72% Z2 or under for the year so could afford even more Z2 yet.
I’m looking forward to starting a sweetspot progression next Spring (goal is 2h @ 300w) but summer is a looooong way away so I’m also determined to stay patient.
Means I can lose weight too- 10lbs and counting…
Well, I have to say that I’m really looking forward to racing against folks that have spent all winter doing 7hrs of ‘zone 2’ + one interval session per week…
😂
To be honest 7hrs + 1 interval session a week is currently about 3 extra hours over what I manage now, so I'd probably be flying!
Although 7hrs + 1 interval session isn't really 80/20, if you're doing 8hrs a week that's time enough for 2 interval sessions 😎
There is some debate over whether it’s 80/20 by sessions or time in zone 😉
I’m pretty sure Seiler’s original description was sessions….
I had my "beginning of season" meeting with my coach today and he laid out in an evidential way how zone 2 had allowed me to catch up with people of very long durations by maintaining or recovering back to circa 200w for much longer than they can, then add the cherry on top. For example, the national 12h within which I came 9th I averaged 196w over 10:25 of actual pedalling, with a "power on" average of 231 w which is low Z3 for me.
For '23 for a change / rest / because the Marathon scene seems to be fraught with cancellations I shall be having a bash at XCO, and while this means intensity starts early, he then showed how training in Z2 will support higher efforts and be "stronger for longer".
Hences, 2.5 months of Z2 work incoming....
Too much 😭 🤣 Down to 94kg at the minute…
I've dabbled a little bit with zones and stuff, having always raced by feel in the past and done well. I do a 6 week training plan before a race that has a lot of zone 2 stuff, often at high cadence.
What exactly is the point of it? Is so much zone 2 work really aimed at people who are not particularly fit and need to get fitter, rather than people who are already race fit? Is it meant to be rest day stuff (although I'll admit it does feel like my legs have had a work out)? Active recovery?
When I'm not doing the training plan almost all my training rides are just reasonably hard rides with the odd interval and that's always got me up the front at races in the past.
@munrobiker I suppose you could call it non-specific aerobic conditioning. Whatever level you are at, the idea is to try and move your aerobic threshold higher. Basically make your Diesel engine bigger.
However.. the fitter you are, the more of a stimulus you will need to progress. For world tour road pro's, that could mean multiple 6/7hr rides a week during the 'base' season when they are looking to nudge that aerobic threshold up a small amount.
Likewise, a type 2 diabetic with obesity may only need 3 brisk 30 min walks at zone 2 to see massive gains.
If you are able to maintain a large enough aerobic base on your current training program then there may not be much benefit to changing what is working.
However, you may find that by switching to doing less generic intensity, you can smash your odd interval session much harder. So you get gains at both ends. (Aerobic gains by upping your weekly volume of diesel work and Vo2 Max gains by being fresher when its time to whizz the turbo!)
Active recovery should be sub 1h and really easy but I do sometimes alternate long Z1 sessions with harder Z2 sessions.
Is so much zone 2 work really aimed at people who are not particularly fit and need to get fitter, rather than people who are already race fit?
No. See: Pogacar 😎
But also, I guess if you're already race fit then you possibly already have a big aerobic engine so could maybe spend more time developing the high end? Or like Crosshair says, maybe you're doing more Z2 than you think because you're already fit?
Either way, the point for me is still being able to do worthwhile structured training without smashing hard sessions all the time, I'm currently nursing a minor sniffle after 3 week's Bronchitis, and now Norovirus is doing the rounds in our 5 year olds school, it pays not to be constantly recovering from hard training sessions!
I also did all my indoor sessions last week at Z2, so when I got out on the gravel bike at the weekend I pootled along at Z2 for an hour or two (call it an extended warm up to the coffee stop) then got to play segment chasing and pushing hard on the muddy bits on the way home. So the benefit of Z2 indoors for me is that I can save the hard efforts for the fun bits outdoors. Win-win
suppose you could call it non-specific aerobic conditioning. Whatever level you are at, the idea is to try and move your aerobic threshold higher. Basically make your Diesel engine bigger.
This x 100
For me I wasn't very efficient and would often bonk on rides (from my post earlier in the thread i was awful at utilising fat) . I realised if i needed to race i need to improve this area. My weekly training plan would change as this area improved and i did less and less of zone 2 specfic training. I guess it also depends on your physiology how well you respond to training.