[Closed] yaw (rotation) on cleats

Do you really need that much rotation?

I've got proper duck feet, with my knees facing forward my feet are at about a 60 degree angle to each other.

On spd shoes I'm comfortable with a few degrees of toe out, on flats I naturally have a bit more but it does make it hard to ride with my knees wide on the MTB. In fact I've just set up a new pair of road shoes fitted the trainer today and did 1hr 40m with normal pedals an a slight toe out, enough to make it comfortable but not enough to rub the cranks at the limit of the float, which is 5 degrees on my pedals.

Doesn't stop me riding normally for hours.

If you really want that much toe out you'll have issues with crank rub/chainstay rub unless you have massive pedal extensions.

I am not a bike fitter. Just going on some advice I had.... Turning cleats to suit your foot angle is not the way to do things. A little, yes. But we're talking 1 or 2 degrees. More than that is asking for trouble and will just transfer stress and strain to knees and hips.

Try some insole wedges to tilt your feet out a little. Think I used some 1 degree wedges. Made a load of difference.

Not as much difference as switching to minimalist / barefoot shoes mind (for general life, not cycling). My feet are almost straight now after a few years of wearing them without any targeted excercises.

I'm predicting some sort of glute problem that is causing external rotation of your femur.
I'd suggest getting to a competent bike fitter / physio asap.
Phil Burt is the man... but not cheap!

In the meantime, maybe try and get those glutes loosened off and then strengthened.

I am also duck footed (not 20 degrees though, more like 10 or so.) and have spent a fortune on physio/bike fitting and such like. And spent a lot of time studying bike fitting and biomechanics/physiology type stuff. Forcing your feet straight(er) is not really a good idea, the more you do it, the worse problems you are potentially saving up for later (though that depends hugely on why your feet turn out, mine is a combination of musculature and skeletal, so some straightening is done by physio/massage and stretching, some by changing the bike/fit points).

Using road pedals will gain you a few degrees of flexibility to start with, the cleats are far more adjustable than 2 bolt SPDs, and also give a far more locked in ride/stable platform, i find trying to get a 2 bolt SPD system set up properly leaves you with your feet hanging off the end of the pedal and a lot of instability. With 3 bolt, you can twist the cleat and push it inboard on the shoe (so your foot goes out) you can actually get some combinations of shoe, cleat and pedal to be completely unusable, as the heel of the shoe needs to pass through the crank to allow pedaling!

The other big change that makes massive difference is using shims on the cleat, i've got 3 degrees of shimming, and that allows my knee to track properly (up/down not in an arc) and takes about 5 degrees of duck footedness away at the same time. So that might be worth looking at as well.

Another thing to bear in mind is trying to copy your foot angles when you're stood up is going to lead to a world of pain, pedaling is not the same action (or loading) as standing or walking.

Thanks all for the comments. Yes, I am known to NHS podiatry and have been known to surprise them with how weird my feet are! I have also, at their good direction, been stretching my glutes and everything else for ~12 years now.

For those suggesting less rotation for one reason or another, I wonder if my mtb setup would clarify things: flat pedals, tilted orthotics in the shoes (I forget the exact tilt maybe 8 degrees), 20mm pedal extenders, and that just about gets me to the point where my heels don't rub the cranks when climbing. I'm willing to consider I should have less rotation with a clipped pedal if any of you stand by that assessment knowing those numbers.

@mert when you mention shims I take it you mean the ones that tilt the cleat, I haven't seen any that rotate it?

Same here - my 'wife' says I walk duck footed, but I've only a slight amount of rotation on my cleats - SPD and Look Delta - how are your feet sitting on flats - you'll have marks on the soles - I'd come in a little if it's quite pronounced.

Yeah, just tilting the cleat, it's an easy and cheap alternative to canted footbeds/orthotics.

Especially as it's only needed on two or three pairs of road shoes. The wider stance on my MTBs means they aren't required.

And if you're going to force your feet to be less twisted (as that's what it is) you have to be very very careful.

I don't really walk with duck feet but at rest my left foot likes to point outwards, if I run cleats perfectly straight then it gives me knee pain in my left leg although it takes a few hours of riding to come on. The easy fix, before they where inexplicably discontinued, was running Speedplay Frogs where the 15° float was sufficient to allow me to run the cleats straight but allow my foot to find the place it wants to be, I run Speedplays on the road bike. I was going to buy Time spd pedals due to the float but was give a pair of Look pedals and by pointing the cleat slightly so it point towards my big toe before tightening the bolts, I didn't need a backing plate or anything special, I can ride multiple hours pain free.

if I run cleats perfectly straight then it gives me knee pain in my left leg although it takes a few hours of riding to come on.

This is the issue with twisting your foot. It might take minutes to notice (me), or hours, or months (or for some lucky buggers, never.)

A guy in our club has recently had a partial knee replacement in his late 20's, directly attributed to running his cleats how his (completely unqualified) coach told him to. "Both feet should be straight! It's what perfect pedaling style looks like!!".
Started very young and trained very hard, so thought the pain was normal. Now rides one foot straight (after surgery, so it's not even all his knee anymore) and the other one about 5 deg toe out, where it should have been to start with.

how are your feet sitting on flats – you’ll have marks on the soles

looking at the soles, 20-30 degrees out, even with my 8 degree tilt 😀

No reason why SPD pedals and shoes won't let you rotate the cleat. You might need to modify the shoes slightly by removing some of the rubber tread either side of the cleat but that won't be difficult.

Or try Time pedals that have a bit more float.

Try some insole wedges to tilt your feet out a little. Think I used some 1 degree wedges. Made a load of difference.

Thank you for mentioning these, weren't aware they were a thing and I've realised I have more pressure on the outside of my foot so a couple of degrees tilt should help a lot.