I expect Shimano will change tack and allow wider licensing, I just don’t see what they stand to gain commercially by being so restrictive.
That might depend on what terms DT Swiss etc negotiated and what they paid. Maybe they have a grace period of restricted competition.
I9 already have microspline hubs available, pretty sure they're not an OEM manufacturer.
Oh and why is it XTR, Deore XT, SLX?
What's with the Deore name for XT? Just call it XT for christ sake!
For me, if I can't get the benefits of the hyperglide+ with the new cassette then there's little point in going to shimano 12 speed, I'd rather go sram eagle and leave the option of going wireless if prices come down or GX AXS gets launched.
Oh and why is it XTR, Deore XT, SLX?
What’s with the Deore name for XT? Just call it XT for christ sake!
Because it's been Deore XT for ever - 1982. Excepy when it went from Deore XT in 1986-ish to Deore XTII in 1987-ish and back to Deore XT in 1995.
It used to be Deore DX, Deore LX and Deore XT didn't it?
What’s with the Deore name for XT? Just call it XT for christ sake!
read the link!
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/deorext.html
ps molgrips, yes
It used to be Deore DX, Deore LX and Deore XT didn’t it?
Deore DX was posher than Deore LX
Deore DX was posher than Deore LX
Yes of course, you are right.
Because it’s been Deore XT for ever
And should remain so.
Still running 9 speed. Feeling like a grandpa. So little innovation in the mountain bike world in the last 7-8 years or so. Starting to feel like a broken record, but the endless new standards, spacings, splines and incompatibility is really beginning to get on my tits.
but the endless new standards, spacings, splines and incompatibility is really beginning to get on my tits.
You want innovation but are sick of new stuff?
^ isn't that innovation?
I'm on 10 speed. Don't really see the need for more on an MTB - I often double shift up and down anyway. 10 spd stuff seems cheap enough, and my Saint shifter, XTR mech and Sunrace cassette shift perfectly. As long as I can get my lowest climbing gear I'm not fussed about top end speed. It's cool they're doing new stuff - maybe I'll get it in a few years once we know what is reliable and prices come down.
Definitely see the need on drop bar bikes though.
One thought with the trouble Hope seem to be having, possibly DT are seen more favourably because they don’t also sell other competing parts (cassettes)?
I’m holding my breath a little on the idea for pricing, but as I only ended up all SRAM after not getting on with M8000 I’m certainly interested in taking a punt if the price is right, and rebuilding a rear wheel doesn’t sound like an impossible barrier. Remember, Shimano do this often to the Road guys without being too concerned.
So little innovation in the mountain bike world in the last 7-8 years or so.
Hmmm...
- Geometry's been sorted out
- Wheel sizes have changed (twice) and 29in is rightly going to win
- Dropper posts have been made reliable and longer, allowing us all to ride better
- One-by drivetrains with wide range cassettes have become dominant
- There's now a good choice of shocks to rival Cane Creek for performance
- Enduro reinforced carcass tyres hit the sweet spot of durability and pedal-ability for gnarly riding
- XC bikes are getting with the long, low and slack-ish programme now too
- E-bikes are now hugely popular, if you like that sort of thing
What did you want to see? Gearbox bikes I bet.
Because it’s been Deore XT for ever
And should remain so.
Thought it went from the Deore side, to XTR(XT-Race), Deore XTR would be a mouthful, and to distinguishe between Deore LX, as it became more of a hybrid/touring groupset, SLX or Sport LX (or maybe Super LX as a finger up to campag ;-))
but I may just be making that up...
Used to be Mountain LX < Deore II < Deore XTII
Then Deore LX < Deore DX < Deore XT
I actually thought they did drop the "Deore" from Deore XT then reinstated it, but maybe I imagined that.
So little innovation in the mountain bike world in the last 7-8 years or so.
Hmmm…
– Geometry’s been sorted out
– Wheel sizes have changed (twice) and 29in is rightly going to win
– Dropper posts have been made reliable and longer, allowing us all to ride better
– One-by drivetrains with wide range cassettes have become dominant
– There’s now a good choice of shocks to rival Cane Creek for performance
– Enduro reinforced carcass tyres hit the sweet spot of durability and pedal-ability for gnarly riding
– XC bikes are getting with the long, low and slack-ish programme now too
– E-bikes are now hugely popular, if you like that sort of thingWhat did you want to see? Gearbox bikes I bet.
- I was riding a 29'er about 10 years ago now. I still have the same hardtail.
- I was riding a perfectly fine dropper post on the aforementioned 29er about 8 years ago.
- There are a wider range of enduro tyres around, but it's hardly a major leap in tech.
- The whole high range, single ring cassette trend is just the emperors new clothes thing still doesn't provide the range that XC bikes had 10 years ago with a 2x9 or 3x9 setup.
- Gnarly, gnarly. All this "enduro" shit is enough to put me off mountain bikes. I still enjoy seeing locals school Brits dressed as power rangers in bike parks in the alps on old cross country hardtail.
10 spd stuff seems cheap enough, and my Saint shifter…
The don of shifters.
So… even down at SLX level… no 11-51 cassettte that runs on a standard HG freehub body? And no Micro Spline freehub body for any of my wheels for the foreseeable? I'm out.
DX was BMX focused wasn't it?
I'm just here to make sure people don't overlook the humble workhorse STX and STX RC components. #lestweforget
You haven't got a chip on your shoulder at all have you Joe?
So what innovation were you hoping for again?
Stx had a stupid chainset. Not something I miss.
I'm surprised that Hope can't play the angle that they are a bike manufacturer these days.
They might just sell a surprisingly high number of spare / replacement HB160 freehubs.
So… even down at SLX level… no 11-51 cassettte that runs on a standard HG freehub body? And no Micro Spline freehub body for any of my wheels for the foreseeable? I’m out.
Shimano are going to have a fight on their hands in some respects still. Quotes around the web say to expect XT at around half XTR and SLX at around a third XTR. M9100 still isn’t the easiest thing to source a full 1x drivetrain group in one place, but based on street prices right now that looks like around £450-500 for an XT drivetrain and £320-340 ish for SLX, which puts SLX head to head with GX, which is basically XT with a crap shifter. That’s definitely pitching XT as premium and SLX as Everyman. SLX with XT shifter is likely to be a common look I think 😁. The lack of alignment between SRAM and Shimano groups is always a problem, but they’re going to need to work the Shimano loyalty a bit this time I think. NX is in big trouble though.
Looking at the 7000 level Deore, I’d guess this is where the 11-51 Shimano cassette will eventually show up - if at all. The old HG FH’s had a good ride, when it’s holding up advancement it’s time to let go and move on.
As earlier, looking forward to getting my hands on this which is a first for me with Shimano since 10spd several years ago.
How do Shimano justify this lock in? I mean, it's obvious why they are doing it, but are they claiming some other reason that isn't about gaining an advantage/control over competitors? Anything about the quality control and tolerances or the like?
Still don't get the idea that any of us non-racers are being "held back" by not being able to fit a 10t cassette… and anyway, all my hubs (and probably yours) can be converted to a XD freehub, and technically can probably be converted to Micro Spline… if Shimano would play ball.
I didn’t say people were being held back, but progress definitely was by HG. So many riders either abandoned Shimano completely or went to XD freehubs and SRAM cassettes, which will have massively hit Shimano in the aftermarket and OEM sales. Arguably, if Shimano hadn’t dropped the ball so thoroughly then Sunrace et al wouldn’t have had the opportunity to get to market in such a big way which is probably good for competition and the speed their product is improving it’s only a matter of time before they’re genuinely first tier and not just what you fit if you don’t want to replace hub/freehub. That’s got to be good for riders as a whole, but not necessarily Shimano and SRAM. As for performance, it’s a simple choice (leaving user perceptions of shifting out) - if you’re going 1x then you have choices. 11T robs you of a top gear leaving you needing a bigger cassette and chainring to get back to the same gearing - or just abandon top gears. That may suit some riders but definitely doesn’t suit everyone. Then, staying 10sp leaves you with big gaps between gears. Again, fine for some but not all. Choices, that’s what it’s all about.
Shimano have never shown so much consideration to the Road market where they’ve had several specifications of FH since HG was launched at eight speed for MTB. It’s less defensible that they didn’t adopt the XD hub which is an open standard so would have cost nothing but tooling but entirely unsurprising.
Tbph, I’m actually hoping that the aftermarket spares situation for DT hubs gets a boost out of this, that would be a nice bonus for consumer choice too. No idea why Hope are being kept out in the cold, but if I was guessing I’d go with a combination of being a drivetrain competitor with the cassettes, really not having the capacity to be an OE partner and their tendency to do things how they see fit rather than sticking to the standard. I’d be surprised if they don’t get Microspline at all, but if they’re still out in the cold a year after M9100, it may be a while yet.
FWIW, Miche are now doing a 12 speed, 11-51T, HG freehub cassette. 468g
https://www.miche.it/en/xm-12-speeds-11-51.html
I kept thinking that the weight benefits of 1x over 2x must be getting narrower as we add more cogs to the cassette so i did some quick maths. (I am bored).
Using 2x10 xt with 38/24 chainrings and a 36t cassette i get front and rear shifter 255g/ front deraileur 137g/ rear deraileur 249g/ chainset 716g/ cassette 338g/ chain 273g/ extra cable and outer 8g gives total 1,968g.
1x12 xt with 51t cassette (they only state one weight for chainsets and due to the confusion mentioned earlier i put the cassette in the middle of the weights listed for 12sp) i get shifter 117g/ rear deraileur 284g/ chainset 608g?/ cassette 470g?/ chain 252g gives total 1,831g
So 12 speed is about 140g lighter than 2x10 if my maths is right. Dont know how much 12 speed is but thats a lot of £££ for a few grammes.
I will let someone else work out what the gear range differences are as none of the online calculators i tried took 12 speed.
Quick edit. Cheers scotroutes that was for a pair not each.
front shifter 255g/ rear shifter 255g
shifter 117g
There has to be something wrong there. I can't see why a 10 speed shifter should be more than twice the weight of a 12 speed (assuming i-Spec all round)
The only way I'd ever go back to 2x is with the Di2 syncro shifting thing, otherwise the front mech needs to die.
Trying to co-ordinate front and rear shifts when you just need a slightly lower gear on a climb, but when dropping into the small front ring, you then also have to shift 3 or 4 cogs on the rear? No thanks.
I'd happily take a weight and price penalty over 2x.
I will let someone else work out what the gear range differences are as none of the online calculators i tried took 12 speed.
https://www.bikecalc.com/gear_ratios
1x12 - (34t chainring/10-51): 3.4 - 0.67
2x10 - (38/24t chainring/11-36): 3.45 - 0.67
Choices, that’s what it’s all about.
That's great. Now will I have the choice to use a Shimano 12 speed cassette on my wheels? Yes or no?
You have the choice not to use 12 speed. Or go with SRAM. Or use a different cassette. Or change hubs. Why should you have every possible option every time? FWIW there are lots of hubs that have no XD driver option either.
Talking about choices, I'd really like to be able to choose an 11-speed 10-46t Sram XG1170 level cassette for about £70 or £80. They could even go nuts and make 10 to 48t, it'd probably still be fine with 11sp XT.
Currently on 10-42t and making do with a 28t chainring, but they've probably lured everyone onto Eagle that they're going to by now - so why not offer a bit more support to 11sp users?
Why should you have every possible option every time?
Well, there are two clear and obvious ways that Shimano could sell me, and a lot of others, most of a spangly new groupset… let hub manufacturers make Micro Spline freehubs… or make a cassette that fits current Shimano pattern freehubs. And it's not just after market sales… I predict that SRAM OEM will be on far more new complete bikes now… why should bike brands feel locked into buying wheels/hubs from Shimano or a limited list of partners? Especially when wanting to equip lower end bikes with the "one more gear" that customers will be looking for?
I predict that SRAM OEM will be on far more new complete bikes now… why should bike brands feel locked into buying wheels/hubs from Shimano or a limited list of partners?
A huge proportion of OEM wheels are DT, either overtly or badged. it really isn't an issue.
Sram already dominate the high end MTB OEM market, 'cos they were so far ahead on 1x drivetrains.
If anything Shimano might gain back some ground now.
Re weight, going 1x11 M8000 from 3x9 M970 saved me 300g ish, and cost about £180 ish since I kept my cranks.
Sram already dominate the high end MTB OEM market, ‘cos they were so far ahead on 1x drivetrains.
Yup, and 12 spd XTR was the chance for Shimano to get the high end back. The hubs fiasco has probably ruined that chance now. And few lessons have been learned when going for the mid range now… tying the SLX group into Micro Spline exclusively, and limiting that new freehub availability to a handful of hub/wheel manufacturers, won't win them fans with bike brands looking at their build specs.
<quote>
Talking about choices, I’d really like to be able to choose an 11-speed 10-46t Sram XG1170 level cassette for about £70 or £80. They could even go nuts and make 10 to 48t, it’d probably still be fine with 11sp XT.
</quote>
I was riding last week with someone on a new YT set up with 11 speed XTR and a 4-46 e-Thirteen cassette on an XD driver. The steps are big, but it works well and would give you the range, and his shifting didn't seem any worse than mine on 10-42 cassette with 11 speed XX1.
Sram already dominate the high end MTB OEM market, ‘cos they were so far ahead on 1x drivetrains.
I thought it was less that, and more the size of the discount they give if you buy a complete SRAM finishing kit. SRAM is cheap for OEMs and expensive for punters.
The microspline farce means I have had enough of Shimano and I've insisted on using their stuff for the last 15 years cos of the shifting quality.
Oh and the constantly changing I-spec compatibility.
Off to SRAM I go.
I thought it was less that, and more the size of the discount they give if you buy a complete SRAM finishing kit. SRAM is cheap for OEMs and expensive for punters.
From my limited insight as a punter, I think they were heading into the lead anyway for that reason, but have made even bigger gains with their one-by transmissions the last few years.
e-Thirteen cassette on an XD driver
I was interested when they launched it, until I saw the price was £200-plus. And I don't really trust them on durability and shift quality TBH.
-
HOWEVER
I've just found out Sunrace are making an XD cassette with 10-46t, at a price I could just about stomach (vs going 12 speed). Just gotta wait for CRC to get stock...
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sunrace-11-speed-xd-cassette/rp-prod186874
From Pinkbike-
“TheRaven PLUS (3 days ago)
@covekid: XD wasn't completely open at first either. It still isn't technically COMPLETELY open as you still need to get SRAM's permission, and just like they would with Shimano, they can choose to deny any application.
As for Shimano, the reluctance to license MicroSpline is due to manufacturing capability. Shimano needs to see that the applicant can reliably meet specification before they will sign off.
The bottom line is this - now that we know that both XT and SLX use MicroSpline, it's only a matter of time before all the significant players have MicroSpline options in their hubs.”
That seems reasonable, but why simply say no to other potential licensees instead of having a programme where they can demonstrate capability? Surely the fact that they've been making HG for decades would suggest they can?
Unless they consider the alu freehub gouging thing to be an issue...
Negotiations?
Maybe DT Swiss are paying for (or had it written into their deal) that they'd have a lead time with little competition.
It's a it naive to think that there isn't more stuff happening behind the scenes than is being discussed on a bike forum.
