How good/bad are the new xt hubs likely to be?.will they be usable for an average rider or are they a total no no. Mainly bothered about reliability will they need constant care or are they fit and forget.seem fairly good price so might build a wheel using xt hub until more options become available.
will they need constant care or are they fit and forget
In reality they are neither of these two things. I haven't used cup and cone for a while, but the trick used to be, pull them apart at new, stuff them with plenty of grease, and check once a year or so to nip up any play. For a competent home mechanic it's a 15 mins job if you stop for a cup of tea between front and rear wheels
I commented on XT and XTR hubs further up the thread. My new wheels will have XT hubs.
Cheers scotroutes just re-read your post.a new xt microspline hub is under £80 so think I’ll get a wheel made up using that until hope bring one out.
I’ve just found out Sunrace are making an XD cassette with 10-46t, at a price I could just about stomach (vs going 12 speed). Just gotta wait for CRC to get stock…
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sunrace-11-speed-xd-cassette/rp-prod186874
@cha****ng I think that is a typo on CRC, just looked on Sunraces site and cant see any 10 tooth cassettes all 11 tooth high ear/ small cog.
@cha****ng I think that is a typo on CRC, just looked on Sunraces site and cant see any 10 tooth cassettes all 11 tooth high ear/ small cog.
No, it's correct. XD freehub allows a 10t small cog and I've verified the product's existence elsewhere on web.
Surprising there's been less fuss about it though, as it's a great solution for those of us wary of 12 speed but who need a bit more range at a reasonable weight.
Good news for everyone that Sunrace is going to be offering XD too. At 10-46 it’s limited utility unless wildly cheaper/not too much heavier (even lighter???) than the 1150 ‘GX’, but it’s a start, more will come.
Totally get that SRAM OE is about insane discounts on full group and that the consumer picks up the tab. That’s common knowledge I thought, and Shimano would do exactly the same if they had shock and fork manufacturing covered.
Who knows what is going on in Shimano’s head licensing wise. Maybe they’re demanding no clicky pawl Microspline because brand pollution? That would be a huge issue for Hope as they’d need a new hub and they’d need to buy the DT license too or engineer something completely new. Or possibly Shimano are writing in a ‘no competition’ clause that steps on Hope’s own cassette and bans them releasing Microspline cassettes of their own? Both would be very possible and totally business being business. Or, as earlier maybe they’re simply limiting the license to true volume OE’s in the short term while they get the first MY’s bikes in shops to drive bike sales.
As to choice, yep the choices are wide open now. One of them is going to be whether to change your rear hub or wheel if you want new Shimano by the look of things, but as above it’s always been this way for Road so not a surprise that MTB gets the same treatment once in a while. There’s going to be a ton of moaning about it in the forums, just like any other time a cool new toy comes along that doesn’t work with what people already have. It’ll end the same way, just like always.
Who knows what is going on in Shimano’s head licensing wise. Maybe they’re demanding no clicky pawl Microspline because brand pollution? That would be a huge issue for Hope as they’d need a new hub and they’d need to buy the DT license too or engineer something completely new. Or possibly Shimano are writing in a ‘no competition’ clause that steps on Hope’s own cassette and bans them releasing Microspline cassettes of their own? Both would be very possible and totally business being business. Or, as earlier maybe they’re simply limiting the license to true volume OE’s in the short term while they get the first MY’s bikes in shops to drive bike sales.
That sort of thing is why we have competition law. You have to be way more subtle about it to be legal, no doubt Shimano have their lawyers on the case.
A huge proportion of OEM wheels are DT, either overtly or badged. it really isn’t an issue.
Pretty small % actually, though higher at the high end / wheelset level. They need to license the design to KT or Novatech to get wide OEM spec. They've licensed centrelock to them in the past so it'll just be a matter of time.
it’ll just be a matter of time.
I think that sums it up best.
Some good points raised above about Shimano's QC expectations, so perhaps we've jumped to the wrong conclusions.
Anyway, I don't care now - I just want that Sunrace cassette and I'll stay 11sp.
That sort of thing is why we have competition law. You have to be way more subtle about it to be legal, no doubt Shimano have their lawyers on the case.
Accepted, but regardless of how it’s actually presented, if Shimano want a lot of kit on bikes from a standing start it’s a big selling point for bike mfrs if whole bike is the only way most people are getting the whole new Shimano shiney this year. I’d be surprised if at least consideration wasn’t given to that. Not sure how you’d fly it under competition laws, but I’m sure a sufficiently motivated company could do it.
As above, I’d be surprised if controls aren’t relaxed after a big splurge on the OE scene.
The license only covers the spline interface, not the freehub mechanism.
Anyone started listing the SLX/XT stuff yet? Wouldn't mind pricing it up 🙂
not the freehub mechanism
Considering the disaster surrounding the XTR hubs, I don't think anyone will be looking to learn anything about freehub mechanisms from Shimano right now anyway.
Just fitted a MicroSpline driver and XTR cassette to my Roval (DT Swiss) wheel.
The cassette figment is so much nicer than XD, no stupid torque settings, cassette locks on really positively.
When the frame arrives later I’ll be putting the rest of the drivetrain on it (XTR shifter and mech, got Praxis Lyft cranks so XTR would have been a step down!) so should get some miles in on it this week.
I will probably try my Mrs’ Eagle GX wheel as well to see what the shifting is like on a Sram cassette.
It's listed on Bike Discount M8100
Availability stated as within 6 weeks - (group set 'priority pack' said 14th June).
Considering the disaster surrounding the XTR hubs, I don’t think anyone will be looking to learn anything about freehub mechanisms from Shimano right now anyway.
Slight over-reaction? They have dropped the ball somewhat on the new mechanism, but have a pretty solid 30 odd year track record on inexpensive and reliable freehubs.
We are talking about the new ones. The Scylence hubs turned out to be vapourware, yet they want us (and shops, and OEMs) locked into their hubs (plus those from a few partners)? And what else disappeared between XTR launch and new bike models…? The chainset, the racer's 11spd options… still more hubs…? You're right about past reliabity, longevity and availability… however…
DT's ratchet hubs don't have a poor record for reliability, the only real issues with them are that they still ship 18T as default and make you spend if you want 36 or 54T (=20/10/6.6deg engagement) and that Hope spare parts are easier to come by in a hurry for most, but if you stay on top of servicing you're not likely to need emergency parts unless you're extremely unlucky. Anyone who wants to get something with a 350 or 240 in the back end or build one into an existing wheel can run the full group now without a Shimano hub with no realistic reliability concerns if they want. I'd expect ebay prices for DT 350 based wheels will see a bit of a bump.
If reliability brick bats are being flung about, Hope have a bit of history too. Sure, they addressed these problems - by releasing new models for people to buy with the problems designed out. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the Scylence hub other than Shimano hit a very rare for them fail with it. From the noises (!) being made it'll be back at some point. It's also fair to say that the context of the botched 9100 launch was the aftermath of their factory fire combined with a very ambitious launch. Dropping a few bits of the group to save the rest was by the sound of things an unfortunate but necessary decision. As to lockin, they've made third party hubs possible with their preferred suppliers immediately at launch. That just doesn't include Hope right now, it's almost certain to at some point but from the noises being made I really wouldn't hold my breath for this MY.
If Hope do manage to land it this year, then good for them, but Shimano seem to be playing Business, so if they're limiting immediate access to the license for the necessary FH body, they probably just don't want too much aftermarket up front which basically smells of a semi-OE exclusive. If they want to do that then it's their product...
Jeezo Kelvin - calm yer breeks?!
Chainset delay was caused by a fire at a factory. Hardly anyone’s fault, and a cheaper alternative was offered ASAP.
The 11 speed option was cancelled as there was too little demand for it and complicated things with an additional hub to reap the benefits. There are still ratio options (10/45 and 10/51) that others don’t offer which offer real benefits to more people without added compatibility complications.
Freehub issue as said is regrettable, but the budget non-series ones were unaffected, the replacement XTR was available pretty quickly and the big global high end vendor had an option from the get go, with others following. Hope is only a big deal in the UK. As James said, KT and Formula/Novatech are the important budget OEM brands. There is no locking in - just limited options due to being a top tier option only until now. That’s bound to change with the new groups, but it’s a 2020 group, and 2020 bikes are few and far between right now - we’ll soon see.
Other after market options will doubtless follow.
In answer to OP - just checked on Madison B2B, and all parts for a 1x group with 4 pot brakes look to be available this month with the exception of the EV option shifter - standard band on shifter due this month, EV option next month.
Wonder if Shimano will do 11sp cassettes in Microspline? Has anything been stated on that front?
Hm. Thanks, concrete!
The 'priority group' looks like a fairly healthy premium over waiting for full release to get stuff 6 weeks early. If the hubless priority is £920, I've done addy ups and got a full 4 pot group without hubs and without rotors (but including a DT freehub body) to £720 so either those brake rotors are damned expensive or there's about £180 premium (accounting for the FH that the Shimano box set doesn't have) 'to be first'. I don't need a tin mug that badly...
So, leaving brakes out but including DT FH body that's a street (Germany) price of £480 for a full drivetrain at 32T, 170mm and 10-51. That's not crazy money and it's well cheaper than X01 but it's noticeably more than GX. XT being 'somewhere between' that's reasonable, but I'd argue XT is closer to GX than X01 so hopefully we'll see lower prices still 😀 Broadly does look like the suggested 'half XTR money was correct.
Also good news for anyone desperate to run but without suitable rear wheel; the non-boost 142x12 and centre lock 32H is £78 on that site with boost about a tenner more, so anyone prepared to rebuild a rear wheel has a possible get-in that isn't *that* much more than replacing a FH body on a posher hub and cup and cone isn't really inferior to cartridge bearings for rear hubs, it just needs regular maintenance, which surely isn't a massive deal until Hope or whoever else get the license?
I have plenty of hubs that aren't Hope, and can be swapped between XD and HG… but not Micro Spline. This isn't just about Hope… the implications are bigger for those needing cheaper hubs for OEM builds. Anyway… launching an SLX level groupset that can only be used with hubs from Shimano and a few other vendors looks like lock in to me… call it what you want. The option to widen the Micro Spline licence to all, or produce a low end HG 12 spd cassette, would have opened up the option for end users and bike brands considerably. Understandable not to do this with XTR bling bling, but disappointed not to see it at this level (yet).
(accounting for the FH that the Shimano box set doesn’t have)
As far as I'm aware, the priority group comes with hubs.
sillyoldman
Subscriber
In answer to OP – just checked on Madison B2B, and all parts for a 1x group with 4 pot brakes look to be available this month with the exception of the EV option shifter – standard band on shifter due this month, EV option next month
Any chance you could look up when the M8100, 2 piston brakes will be available individually in the UK? Thanks!
Bike24 had the priority groupset up on the day the embargo was lifted. Price has already dropped €100 since then.
I thought the priority groupset had no hubs and no BB but does have complete brakes including rotors (that are often extra). plus free hat and mug which definitely wins the sale 😉
€629 or €699 for the back order version. That's not as bad as I thought it might be. Hard to compare right now, since they don't quote a brakeless groupset option for Shimano, and don't quote a Sram groupset with brakes. But I'd estimate that XT would be a few € more than GX street price, like for like.
Since Bike24 is now part of the Wiggle-CRC empire, I'd guess they have similar deal?
Just got 1x11. cba to change now, although I could make use of the extra ratios. going 1x12 would cost me a new wheelset or €70 extra for freehub body regardless if I stick with Shimano or defect to Sram.
Front brakes due end of June, rear brakes due mid July.
Anyone want to offload some 1x11 M8000 kit, I'll take it 🙂
Mister P
Member
Front brakes due end of June, rear brakes due mid July.
Thanks!
Kelvin - I’d bet the interchangeable freehubs weren’t available prior to the group in question being available though?
Well, I didn't have any of my current hubs way back before XD game along… so you're right in a way. But if you're making the point that XD freehubs were of limited availability when they first came out, your point is valid. SLX isn't XX1 level though. These work horse groupsets need an option to use Micro Spline hubs from more suppliers, or a cassette that fits the previous Shimano freehub spline. Anyway, I'm just repeating myself. I'll leave this thread alone now.
Bike Discount are selling the priority group with and without hubs, for a sensible price difference.
From my POV I’m mostly interested in their pricing because I’ve not seen anyone in the UK put a street price to the stuff yet. Based on BD’s pricing info, the wear and tear kit (cassette and chain) is the only thing they’re selling particularly below RRP - or the only thing they say they are.
As commented, prices asked seem about normal range for XT at start of a cycle so I’d imagine 7100/8100 stuff will show up in the UK at prices that aren’t surprising. Which is nice. I’m hoping to have a new bike before long to hang some stuff on so I’m prepared to put my money where my mouth is and see if Shimano really have got their M785 groove back on 😁
I'll be in the market for a new groupset soon when I get my next bike which will be a Jeffsy Pro Race, I'll be swapping out the E13 9-46 cassette and 11speed XTR, I'd love to have the choice of XT or XTR 12 speed as I reckon hyperglide+ could be really good, but if E13 don't get the rights to microspline that's not going to happen.
If they do, there's other little annoyances which would probably make me choose sram, like the i-spec EV XT shifter being a completely separate unit to the band on model. If I choose brakes with no adapter I'll need to choose the band on shifter, but if an adapter comes out later I'd need a complete new shifter to use it? Why shimano?
That and the chance of Di2 XT or XTR 12 speed being years away at best, you'd hope that Shimano saw how clean and simple AXS is and are in the midst of designing a wireless Di2, but I won't hold my breath....
I’d guess the majority of the 3rd parties who weren’t in the initial release will get offered the licenses at the same sort of time.
Regarding the ispec vs band-on, that’s pretty normal at least since ten speed. The entire top of the shifter is different, even when the parts are available you’re usually over halfway to a new shifter anyway... plus, it won’t be long before problem solvers have a bracket for SRAM or Hope brakes and iSpecEV shifter (and probably vice-versa)
Using the prices (rounded up) from Bike Discount, I think I'll be going for the below setup (need to add a DT Swiss freehub yet).
Cassette + Chain (SLX): £88
Shifter (XT): £45
Rear Mech (SLX): £55
Crank (XT): £119
Chainring (SLX) £23
Total: £330
That seems very reasonable to be honest. It'd probably be very similar price for GX Eagle with the crank, but I'm keen to try the shifting under load 🙂
Yeah there probably will be a solution for Hope brakes, Hope might even bring out an i-spec EV mount (I wouldn't blame them if they didn't, tbh), if not you'd probably need a Hope matchmaker mount and an i-spec EV to matchmaker mismatch mount... jeez lol!!
Shimano just seem to have an air of 'tradition' which some could interpret as 'stuck in their ways'. They were designing an entirely new shifter and brake mounting system, how hard would it be to design a shifter than can be both band on and i-spec? They seem content with being the 2nd, or 3rd to market but with tried and true designs that are probably more reliable than the cutting edge stuff from other manufacturers. I don't know if that's a good thing, or not...
Their brakes have been shocking for years now. I was a Shimanophile for more than 20 years before that. I still don't know how they got away without a recall!
Sram and Hope for me these days.
I’m yet to hear of the very current Shimano brakes failing but yes, they have had a very bad run with them that really would have really finished SRAM/Avid off brake wise but everyone is just ‘oh, Shimano... get a new calliper...’. They do seem to get a free pass on them. That said, I’m not a fan of Hope’s levers simply from an aesthetic point of view and then they ain’t cheap plus they aren’t as head and shoulders ahead of everyone like they used to was. I was a Guide fan for a bit before hitting a patch of sticky pistons on several sets.
Currently I’m sold on Magura for brakes, but if the new Shimano’s still haven’t been dragged through the forums with leaking calliper pistons by the time I’m ready to buy I may take a punt. It would make connecting everything much easier.
As usual,all you hear are the stories of a few failures, not the (probably) hundreds of thousands of calipers in use that are fine. I could, if you like, start a thread every time my calipers work, or every bike I service has calipers that work. I suspect you'd get bored very quickly, especially if other folk chipped in.
Big fan of Shimano brakes, myself. All manufacturers have some duds.
As usual,all you hear are the stories of a few failures, not the (probably) hundreds of thousands of calipers in use that are fine. I could, if you like, start a thread every time my calipers work, or every bike I service has calipers that work. I suspect you’d get bored very quickly, especially if other folk chipped in.
More than just a few failures.
Quite. As I’ve said before, I do wonder if the general practice in dome parts of deliberate overfilling to ‘get the feel right’ is what has been busting seals in many cases, but even then the time this has been going on, something should have done, the seal should have been re-specced. It is miraculous that everyone remembers Avid/SRAM can’t make brakes but defends Shimano for them though. Personally apart from hating the bleeding I was fine with 785’s until I got a bike with Guides and didn’t look back but I know plenty of riders wgo have had leaky Shimano callipers, enough that it really isn’t a rare problem.
Doesn’t just happen with pushbikes though, ask different people about the previous model Ford Focus ecoboost and you’ll get completely different answers depending whether they’ve been left with a trashed engine due to the plastic water pipe melting or not. It’s a very widely reported issue but officially ‘never a problem’ and certainly not recalled.
So... Anywhere got XT/SLX stuff in stock yet?
Most of what I've seen is still "pre order". Google is failing me (or I'm failing!).
