Wow this 90s H/T desire is gathering strength on here .😎

There is kernel of truth in this.

I have a kona unit, no longer single speed, with 100mm forks and it's a very versatile bike.
More do than my 160mm enduro gnarpoon!

kimbers Raijin has sliding dropouts as well, my knees wouldn't thank me 😔

albeit a flat bar rather than drops which suits me just fine

I use upside down Ritchey Kyote bars with mid-mounted barends as a poor man's Jones bar on my 90s mtb/gravel bike. For me it's a better set up than drop bars for anything other than very smooth gravel roads.

For me it’s a better set up than drop bars for anything other than very smooth gravel roads.

If I understand correctly though, very smooth gravel roads, of which there are loads in the US were the original use case for gravel bikes. We've generously increased their scope of purpose since adopting them in the UK, (and maybe in other parts of Europe, I don't know, are they popular there?). Your flat handlebar preference seems perfectly valid in this context.

Maybe we need a new specific moniker for UK (not really) gravel.

Maybe we need a new specific moniker for UK (not really) gravel.

I thought we did? - Adventure Bike

Yeah, i just tend to use this type of bike as a kind of ‘hybrid’ between bits of road and sections of off-road.

Maybe Hybrid is a good enough term?

Oh, wait a cotton pickin’ minute…..

I thought we did? – Adventure Bike

Indeed, but it'd be far too sensible to adpot an existing moniker.

Me? I love my Titus Mutsu (like a Broken Road Ti). Flat bars with barends work better than drops for me, but otherwise it's a Gnarvel (Gnar-Gravel?) setup minus a set of drops.

Maybe Hybrid is a good enough term?

HybRAD

: )

My Spanish friend described my bike as a "Countryside Bicycle"
Perfect.

zippykona
Get the patent sorted on that right now ! This time next year etc etc 👍

Indeed, but it’d be far too sensible to adpot an existing moniker.

I'm against stupid marketing terms as much as the next guy, but I don't think a big advertising push for the, 'All-new 2023 range of 90s-mtbs' would sell as many bikes.

Or maybe it would 🙂

I felt I was being left behind when the LLS marketing train got a head of steam

The mistake you made was thinking the marketing applied to you.

LLS is indeed great for technical MTBing. However, if that's not what you want to do then find the bike that does suit what you want to do. Just because bike companies are selling LLS doesn't mean you need one. They also sell other stuff.

I built a bike for South Wales 'adventure riding' in 2015, a rigid 29er, and it's been great. Apparently I was ahead of the curve there. It has flat bars because that's what was available, I re-used flat bar parts, and it's probably better for some of the techncial stuff I encounter in the area.

Moral of the story - appreciate new tech for what it is, ignore marketing. Also, MTBing isn't one discipline.

I was looking at Canyon Grizl for a mate who has a C2W voucher to burn. I don't think it's fair to call it a 90s MTB. It's pretty different, the only similarity is that it's rigid, I think. I can't think of anything a 90s MTB would do better than such a monstercross/adventure bike from 2023.

Maybe Hybrid is a good enough term?

Mrs_oab is ahead of the curve on this one:
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52670264874_ae63a2f8d0_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52670264874_ae63a2f8d0_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2ofhSK5 ]Marin DSX for Jo[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/ ]Matt[/url], on Flickr

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52621124404_66eb0618a4_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52621124404_66eb0618a4_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2oaX1ZA ]Gravel is a social construct[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/ ]Matt[/url], on Flickr

“Countryside Bicycle”

Its gonna get shortened though isn't it....

ahead of the curve

Ridgeback would like a word about where that curve really is and who's ahead of it : )

Let's not forget Mountain Cross from 2010.
The best bike in the mud . Probably feel shit now.

Or maybe it would

I think you're underestimating the unfulfilled need that folks in their late 40's and 50's with disposable income have to recreate a time when their 30" jeans needed a belt and they completed the Gap (Or insert first 1990's proper off road ride here) that one day when the sun was out in Wales and they got burned.

Good times...

Here; buy this new bike that vaguely looks like that one from the 1990's but not only that, handily means that now you have an excuse not to ride the "crack of doom" that the locals 13 year olds ride down with impunity yet gives you the fear, and instead means that you can ride the dull bridleway that you soon realised (after that day in Wales) was the only thing those 1990 MTBs were good for.

I'll admit as a tag line it needs work, but I think the basics are there.

Its gonna get shortened though isn’t it….

Very good. Made me chuckle anyway.

I’ll admit as a tag line it needs work, but I think the basics are there.

I described my Salsa as a 'hybrid hybrid' i.e. between a hybrid and an MTB. I later called it a 'modern hybrid' meaning between a road bike and what MTBs are like now, rather than in 1989.

Adventure bike is probably the more recognised term, but it's a bit daft since you can have an adventure on any bike.

nickc nailed it 👍

I had been reinventing my own gravel phase. As I have got older and more rickety, I don't feel the need to 'push the envelope ' of my skills. A nice tootle along a remote track with a nice caff at the end is my choice these days and it seems the bike industry is following suit.
The bike I ride most is a 29er HT with carbon forks and fairly narrow tyres. And yes it's like the hybrid my missus had thirty years ago

@nickc I think you've nailed it. There's always the "Back in my day we rode down Fort William on a rigid v-braked ATB so that's all you need" brigade, but someone did post a photo up the other week of an early STW Group Ride which seemed to show lots of people pushing 90's/early 00's MTB's up and down a fairly tame slope and not many people actually riding...

Let’s not forget Mountain Cross from 2010.
The best bike in the mud . Probably feel shit now.

ahh, the days when stems were that perfect length to attach batteries to.

Not quite 90s but I got a wee bit obsessed with all the fat tyred city bikes and wheelie bikes I was seeing in London and wanted one of those, but ended up with a mk1 Soul instead. Though I'm going to ruin it with big fat slicks

I don't think I'd go any further back personally- I had a 90s mtb that was considered decent when i bought it new, I later converted it to a commuter, and later still stuck mtb tyres back on it thinking "this'll be a laugh, I had a great time on this back in day". And of course, it was rubbish

My only bike that gets ridden around 4,000 miles a year is probably a lot closer to a 90s MTB than most.

Rim brakes
Square Taper cranks
Steel frame and forks
Narrow tyres
Good saddle to bar drop
Flat narrow bars (although now back on drops as more comfortable and a bit faster)

Douglas Adams captured the sentiments of this thread (and half of STW really):

I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.

Gravel bikes aren't shite, you're all just becoming old... 😉

Edit: I also really like your bike above Kerley, just looks 'right'...

I can’t think of anything a 90s MTB would do better than such a monstercross/adventure bike from 2023.

Arguably that's down to them having 26" wheels and, to a lesser extent, rim brakes. If you've ridden 29" for a while, going back to 26" wheels, even on a really good mountain bike, is a bit of an eye-opener. I repurposed my early 2000s mountain bike with rigid carbon forks and a 29" front wheel with a big tyre and flat bars and it worked surprisingly well. Now pondering what to do with my Ragley Ti, which I can't bring myself to part with.

If you’ve ridden 29″ for a while, going back to 26″ wheels, even on a really good mountain bike, is a bit of an eye-opener.

My reaction when I switch from my girlfriend's 2021 Giant Toughroad to my rigid 1997 Orange P7 is one of relief.

It's feels lighter (even though it's probably not), it's more responsive, it goes where I tell it to go not where it wants to go.

Not sure exactly what category the Toughroad falls into but mid 90s mtbs have it beat in every category, as far as I'm concerned*.

*OK, fine, the Toughroad beats my P7 on brakes. Although my XTR parallelogram Vs look awesome and work pretty well. 16 year old me would be super impressed.

The Toughroad has integral racks. It beats the P7 on that...

Gravel bikes aren’t shite, you’re all just becoming old…

The truth cuts me deep man, real deep...

While a lot of MTB was going down the LLS route from ~2010 onwards (first Mondrakers?) there was also XXC Mag and long-distance racing that had come out of 24hr racing, inspired by John Stamstad, Iditabike and the Great Divide Race. 29ers had landed well there and I remember riding a good rigid 29er for the first time as a eureka moment - an MTB that worked for the early draw of MTBs / ATBs, the exploration and escapism. That's where the modern ATB builds work so well. The same thing is happening in the road scene as they discover gravel bikes and long distance racing.

The Toughroad has integral racks. It beats the P7 on that…

Had to take the racks off to fit mudguards so they aren't 'integral'. Saying that, I haven't actually tried riding it without the racks yet so maybe the wheels simply won't turn without them bolted on so you might be right;)

29ers had landed well there and I remember riding a good rigid 29er for the first time as a eureka moment – an MTB that worked for the early draw of MTBs / ATBs, the exploration and escapism. That’s where the modern ATB builds work so well.

My first 29er was an early Niner EMD. I remember for 6 months thinking 'meh', but then forked out for better tyres that the Velociraptors (only 29 tyres the LBS had at the time...) and suddenly it was 'wow' and was brilliant at covering long distance, albeit rather too stiffly. Sadly nicked before I managed to add a few more bits to it.

https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/niner-emd-9-d-xc-29er-review/

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/3266/2414488562_2980e85b31_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/3266/2414488562_2980e85b31_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/4FmTk9 ]100_5178[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/ ]Matt[/url], on Flickr

As I have got older and more rickety, I don’t feel the need to ‘push the envelope ‘ of my skills.

That's why I have a gnaarrpoon,

[polemic] I don't have any skills, and now I don't need to, because the bike takes care of that for me. Honestly; I've spent way too long riding just sub-par bikes, I've always had this nagging thought in the back of my mind that the way bikes were sold to us BITD vs what they were actually capable of doing fell pretty short. Well largely that's no longer true, I really can ride the crack of doom with the 13 year old groms, so while I still have control of my bowels and I don't make an involuntary noise when I sit, then I'm ****ed if I'm going to buy a bike that's less capable than the tatt I was riding when I was younger when I didn't have a choice [/polemic]

Gravel bikes and all that long distance bridleway bashing can wait. It's dull anyway.

The Toughroad

My that looks nice.

My reaction when I switch from my girlfriend’s 2021 Giant Toughroad to my rigid 1997 Orange P7 is one of relief.

My reaction when I rode my mate's 2005 Kona HT a couple of years back was one of sheer terror. The front wheel was basically under my torso (it was the correct size) and in any corner it was far too weighted, so all it wanted to do was wash out. That's exactly how things were in the 90s too. We used to hoon down fire roads and try everything possible to prevent the front wheel washing out and dumping us on our faces. I now own three MTBs - one is pretty old still but can be configured with a modern HA, and this puts the front wheel further out and my weight much more central which means I can throw it into corners and its properly balanced. The other two are XC orientated 29ers and the large wheels and longer put the front wheel further out even with their steep head angles. If I throw these bikes into a corner they drift in a balanced way.

Early MTBs were based on road bike geometry, and that just is not appropriate for MTBing. Gravel and rough tracks maybe, but then you might as well fit bigger wheels, decent tyres, discs and drop bars, and hey presto it's an adventure bike which is what we now have.

Although, if you are short, you may not have the same issues with 90s MTBs than I do.

but then forked out for better tyres that the Velociraptors (only 29 tyres the LBS had at the time…) and suddenly it was ‘wow’ and was brilliant at covering long distance, albeit rather too stiffly.

Honestly, I think this is where most of the, 'You can really tell how shit they were when you jump on a 26er after riding a modern 29er'

9 times out of 10 they are talking about a bike with un-bled brakes, un-serviced forks, and, most importantly, age hardened tyres that were probably a bit shit to begin with. Even if it's kept in tip top shape, the best tyres are often simply not available for the current 'wrong' wheel size.

Most of the time, the best bike is the bike with the best tyres.

modern ATB builds work so well

They should never have dropped the original ATB tag 😉

Maybe we need more Action Hybrids or Extreme Countryside 😆🤣

Gravel bikes and all that long distance bridleway bashing can wait. It’s dull anyway

I would have agreed before I bought bone conducting headphones.
Now I'm listening to my favourite radio shows and getting out and seeing stuff. Win ,win.

See, the fact that you need distracting with a podcast tells me all I need to know. I'm joking of course, the vast majority of my riding from my door is local bridleway bashing on my Scandal.

It's still dull though, and mostly only interrupted by the other group of folks that have increased traffic on bridleways since the pandemic; People who have no control whatsoever over "doodles" the cockerpoo.

The front wheel was basically under my torso (it was the correct size) and in any corner it was far too weighted, so all it wanted to do was wash out. That’s exactly how things were in the 90s too. We used to hoon down fire roads and try everything possible to prevent the front wheel washing out and dumping us on our faces.

I had the opposite problem.

In the 90s I would lose traction with both wheels at once. As the mid-00s rolled around I suddenly found myself face-planting on a regular basis.

It wasn't that I was leaning back when descending. I was in what I would describe as an 'athletic' stance. Think tennis player waiting for a serve or goal-keeper taking a penalty. Weight was over the feet, leaning slightly forward ready to move immediately.

I found in the mid-00s I had to move away from the athletic stance and go to a more crouched position with a much more aggressive lean forward, which did affect how quickly I could shift my position but it was the only way to avoid front wheel wash out.

My current bike, with longer wheelbase, is probably more likely to two wheel drift but my instinct to keep the front wheel weighted at all costs, thanks to faceplanting for the best part of a decade if I didn't, means I'm not sure if I could go back to my athletic stance of the 90s. Also, the extra length of modern reach means I'd struggle to get into the athletic position.

I'm 5'6", for reference.

Honestly, I think this is where most of the, ‘You can really tell how shit they were when you jump on a 26er after riding a modern 29er’

Not really. I'm talking about a Ragley Ti with top of the range Maxxis tyres fitted, properly maintained brakes and transmission that work, a Pike - a modern ones as the bike has for convoluted reasons a tapered-steerer compatible head tube and reasonably modern geometry. The main difference between it any my 29er is the wheel size. I live and ride in the Peak and the way that 26" wheels hook up on stuff that a 29er rolls over effortlessly is immediately obvious. Granted if you ride somewhere smooth, this would be less of an issue, but for me there's a huge difference which is down to wheel size.

I live and ride in the Peak and the way that 26″ wheels hook up on stuff that a 29er rolls over effortlessly is immediately obvious. Granted if you ride somewhere smooth, this would be less of an issue, but for me there’s a huge difference which is down to wheel size.

It depends how you ride. If you like to plow through stuff then 29er is your friend. If you like to 'pick and place' and use the terrain to generate speed then 26 is better.

I'm very active on the bike but when I ride a 29er it just feels like wasted effort most of the time. Easier to just sit back and roll on which is not what I enjoy.

However, I understand that most people prefer to just plow through so I know I'm always going to be in a minority.