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We have co-held several trail days this year, and support a childrens camp / group that offers coaching to kids.
If we lost LBS's, I don't think it would make much difference.
People mostly buy parts online. 99% of the time you get bikes cheaper online too.
Servicing is stupidly easy, even forks/shocks. If you can't service your bike yourself you need to get learning, save yourself some cash!
I suppose one thing is, you wouldn't have shop race teams. People have to start somewhere, without them, what would happen?!
LBS=SHITE
We are not the target or typical customer for most LBS. Edinburgh has several bike shops all with slightly different niches and seem to be doing fine. Good shops mainly as well.
I still find this whole idea of paying someone to service a bike totally weird, Its a bike not a BMW.
Did you guys have your bike in for a a 1000miles service when you were a kid ?
I really fear for the country these days, can no one do anything for themselves. When I was a kid if your bike broke you fixed it. If you could not fix it you asked your dad and he helped you fix it.
Are we really a country of morons !!
[i]Are we really a country of morons !! [/i]
Well, statistically nearly half of all the people you'll meet are of below average intelligence...
And The Sun is the best selling newspaper.
I still find this whole idea of paying someone to service a bike totally weird, Its a bike not a BMW.Did you guys have your bike in for a a 1000miles service when you were a kid ?
I really fear for the country these days, can no one do anything for themselves. When I was a kid if your bike broke you fixed it. If you could not fix it you asked your dad and he helped you fix it.
I can't ask my dad to fix it.
If for example in my youth i buckled a wheel, my dad bought me a new wheel. We never went out and fixed that one. However now our wheelsets are £500, well you'd rather fix it... doesn't mean you know how.
Also... my bike had NO gears... none at all.. therefore very easy to index.. 🙂
Hydraulic brakes were not even dreamed of..
So moving on to today, i'm happy to bleed my brakes, index my gears etc, but certain things like fork internals, BBfacing and even headsets are a little alien to me. I'd expect in the circumstances of necessity i would manage... but some things i like to take to someone who knows a bit more than me.
I think that theres quite a few things as well that are so cheap for a repair shop to do its not worth doing yourself - especially if you need to buy tools. I recently had a new bb installed and it was only 21quid. Fitting a neww chainset 12quid and a new rearr mech 6quid. The problem is that when its so cheap you dont really feel motivated. To learn. Time comes into it as well - I dont have any! I also loike having my bike professionally looked after. Its not down to being moronic.
I can't believe its quicker to take a bike to a shop to get a BB changed, than it is to do it yourself. It should only take 10 minutes. Must take longer to take it to the shop ?
I can't believe its quicker to take a bike to a shop to get a BB changed, than it is to do it yourself. It should only take 10 minutes. Must take longer to take it to the shop ?
However there are many variations, spacers, setups etc. so the first time isn't necessarily as easy as the on-going times. You may still need the teaching for the first time... where do you get that from ?
Also add into the equation, if you **** it up, your bike is off the trails/road.... . if the LBS **** it up, they'll sort it.
Also add into the equation, if you * it up, your bike is off the trails/road.... . if the LBS * it up, they'll sort it.
Really you don't think they might just tell you it was like it before ?
I think knowing how things work is a good idea just in case things break when you are out and about. It can be the difference between being able to ride and not. If you can't change a broken mech then what are you going to do if you break a mech hanger 2hrs from your car one day.
My LBS of choice stocks stuff I wouldn't buy, very run of the mill stuff, definitely aimed at commuters. The reason I go there is for the mechanic. He's brilliant.
Speaking to the owner, he survives pretty much totally on C2W schemes.
Really you don't think they might just tell you it was like it before ?I think knowing how things work is a good idea just in case things break when you are out and about. It can be the difference between being able to ride and not. If you can't change a broken mech then what are you going to do if you break a mech hanger 2hrs from your car one day
I'd bloody hope they wouldn't.
Mech hangers are not quite in the same league as re-facing a BB. ALthough you could argue with the right tools, doing the BB is fairly simple.
Thing is... these tools are expensive and take a long time to purchase all of them
Mech hangers are not quite in the same league as re-facing a BB. ALthough you could argue with the right tools, doing the BB is fairly simple.
Surely though refacing only needs to be done once if moving to an external BB. If bike came with an external BB or replacing another one then its straight forward.
To be honest, although I would rather buy the tool and do it myself if possible, I will concede that I can see why someone might say get a headset fitted by a LBS. But not just replacing worn out components etc or adjusting the gears.
Its funny people seem happy to do DIY on their houses which is probably most people most valuable asset, but they won't work on their bike them selves.
Its funny people seem happy to do DIY on their houses which is probably most people most valuable asset, but they won't work on their bike them selves
Horses for courses mate. I can't do DIY, however i can rebuild a motorbike from component spares and have done more than once.
I can't do car engines but i can change a camchain on a motorbike.
I can't wire a plug, however i'm trusted with over 1000 Microsoft servers 🙂
Im not happy doing diy either. Hate it.
Horses for courses mate. I can't do DIY, however i can rebuild a motorbike from component spares and have done more than once.I can't do car engines but i can change a camchain on a motorbike.
I can't wire a plug, however i'm trusted with over 1000 Microsoft servers
Thats odd 😀 a bike engine and a car engine are pretty much the same and all the principles are exactly the same. I reckon you would not have too much trouble if you tried 🙂
My guess is you are interested in building a bike engine but not a car engine 🙂
I had built a fair few car engines and I was nervous when I built a turbocharged Hayabusa engine from the ground up. Complete disassembly, measure modify and rebuild. Knew I could do it though as its not rocket science. I loved building that engine so much lighter and less hard work then building a car engine 🙂
I must add I have no formal training in this sort of stuff, but I am always willing to learn. If someone else can learn about something that means I can too !!!
If you mean "the sport" as in competitive racing, then I guess LBS input is minimal.
However if you mean the activity of cycling then, yes, LBS is important - online retailers may satisfy "you lot" (meaning aspirational gear whore bikers) but it's not going to beat seeing something new and shiny hanging up in the window, won't mind your bike while you pop next door to the chippy on the way back from a ride, won't rummage in the parts bin for an odd little ferrule/nut/thingamejig and won't take you round your local trails showing you some "new bits".
I only buy online these days if it's an item my LBS doesn't stock, more than happy to pay a few quid more to keep them in business 🙂
It's so simple to DIY stuff on a bike, I can't be bothered to try to get to a LBS when they're open to drop it off and then the same to pick it up
I also loike having my bike professionally looked after
So do I, hence I DIY
The LBS will survive OK, there may well be less of them and those that remain will probably have to charge more for repairs so those that like to use their LBS will just have to pay more for the pleasure
The bottom bracket is a good example, really. Most cyclists wouldn't touch one. More serious riders, like most people on here, probably own the BB tool for the kind of BB they own, and can handle taking out a cartridge BB and replacing it with another.
But what if the new BB needs a new tool? What if the threads need cutting, or the shell needs facing? What if the BB is stuck, and you've stripped your tool and all the teeth on the BB trying to get it out?
Typical arrogance from stw posters re diy mech/home repairs!!!
My son is suffering from the leftover diy home improver on his new house. Obviously "we" are not all that blessed with the stw massives diy skillz!!
As for bike maint I see the consequences near enough weekly of the dad/granddad/uncle etc repairs 🙄 We are not all blessed with the dexterity and knowledge to fix "stuff"
As for shop staff I agree there are some duffers but on the other-hand the way some people treat same staff makes me shudder. Lots of arrogant sods out there have expectations above their station in life. Seen quite a big increase in this over the summer months and on speaking with others they agree it is on the rise.
As for the comment re go and learn - where?
As for the OPs question "will the sport" survive? YES it will.
I am not interested in cycling as a "sport" only as a recreational pursuit. Recreational cycling will survive but racing will price itself out of the market partly due to cost and partly due to world economics imo
I know many people who have posh expensive bikes - but haven't a clue how to maintain them.
They are the target audience of the LBS.
Also, how many of the STW 'DIY Gods' who fix their bikes, go anywhere near the bonnet of their car? Or do they let the local garage service it for them?
Good LBS's will be fine but averages ones will struggle. Most (none STW) cyclists can't repair their own bike and will continue to use LBSs, they will also continue to use them to buy stuff from as they can offer advice.
I've recently bought a road bike and, as I know very little about them, used an LBS. What I found when looking around was that the variety of quality within these LBS's was huge. Some went out of their way to help and really tried to get a sale, other simply could not be intereted.
I've worked in specialist retail for years (Audio Visual if you must ask) and the LBS is representative of the same sort of niche market. If the LBS goes the local market is effected, if many go the bigger market is effected. Not necessarily the whole market and maybe not immidiatly, but high-end brands with small T/O will be hit hard. Most buyers of (high-end) bikes are probably not hobbyists or even weekly riders, they just want to buy a nice ride. If not able to look-see-touch-try they'll not part with their cash, or if they do it's at a much lower price point. Give these people the opportunity to try ever nicer bikes they'll spend more and support the industry. They probably outnumber the enthusiast 10-1 if not more and keep smaller companies alive.
The [problem] with enthusiasts is that unless sponsered (or loaded) they will find ever more creative ways to save money to feed their addiction and, in today's world, that means bypassing the LBS and going on-line or buying second hand.
I just ordered a very expensive (to me anyway) new bike from my LBS, and got a very good deal i might add. I want to be able to walk in or ring them up for help and feel justified in doing so.
Others here may think anyone incapable of complete bike maintenance is representive of a falling society but bikes today are following the motor industry. They're becoming ever more complicated to service and whilst it's possible to learn the ropes most simply haven't the time or inclination. I for one haven't the time to spend hours tinkering in the garage, modern family life is just too busy to selfishly focus on my hobby all weekend... I need my LBS.
We need to support good shops, bad ones will go away anyway, without the LBS the niche brands we rely on so much will struggle and that can't be good for our sport.
As for bike maint I see the consequences near enough weekly of the dad/granddad/uncle etc repairs We are not all blessed with the dexterity and knowledge to fix "stuff"
Its not about being blessed its about being arsed to try. The reason I can do it is because when I was younger I tried fixing my Raleigh Chopper when it went wrong. I changed my own punctures and we built up bikes from old frames etc. So now I have a nicer bike I am not afraid to do what are simple jobs on it.
As for the comment re go and learn - where?
Lots of places, friends, internet or Park big blue book of bicycle maintenance. There are plenty of places if you look.
Its about confidence and we have a generation of people who have no confidence in themselves to do the real stuff in life. We have a culture of we must be officially trained or have a qualification to be competent at something.
bazzer - there are a lot of people who simply are not interested in maintaining bikes. They use bikes but are not people for whom cycling is a hobby.
teh STWer and their mates are not the norm in cycling
bazzer - there are a lot of people who simply are not interested in maintaining bikes. They use bikes but are not people for whom cycling is a hobby.
Totally understand that, but its not a case of can't its a case of can't be bothered.
I can understand someone who says don't want to do it because I just can't be bothered that's fair enough.
I don't change the oil on my car these days, I could and its not because I don't have the tools etc. Its because I am too lazy to crawl underneath the car.
Its just all the excuses that are trotted out about not having the tools or skills etc. Its a bike not a life support machine.
The ability to service a bike is not a requirement to describe your interest as a 'hobby'. I clean, oil, bleed and repair everything I can. But socks, forks etc... are areas I just won't go, at least until I'm retired and have the time.
My other 'hobby' is photography; and you won't find me dismantling my £800 SLR either... 🙄
Some people just aren't mechanically minded. I'm not musical - parents and teachers tried to teach me a variety of instruments, from piano to guitar to oboe, and none of it stuck - I'm just not musical. In the same way, some people just aren't mechanical.
There's also a matter of time - there's no way a home mechanic, even one with a stble of bikes, will spend as much time repairing bikes as someone who's been doing it all day, every day for years. All that experience adds up.
I'm not saying all LBSs are perfect - the majority of the more complex Rohloff repairs I do, for example, are fixing the bodged repairs of other bike shops.
sure ask1974 - I was thinking about two of Mrs TJs colleagues - their bikes are a means of transport - bought new, serviced by the shop.
ask, socks are nothing to worry about. bit of darning and they'll be fine
I'm the same. happy doing most things, but the cost of a headset press, and the complexity of suspension mean i'll hand stuff like that over to the pros. BTW, i learnt everything i know from the park website
Wow - I expected this thread to be supportive of LBS, but on the contrary generally. That is a real surprise.
I think the issue is hard and I am inconsistent in buying behaviour. My heart hopes that LBS and specialist retailers survive and prosper but my head reminds me that no business has a right to exist. Everyone has to earn that right. I would happily pay a little bit extra for good service and to keep a specialist retailer in business, but the gap between pricing is becoming so great that this becomes difficult.
I was recently in lakes and shattered my helmet in crash at Whinlatter (note to TJ - head took all the impact first!!). Shops at Trail Centre and at Ambleside stocked comfortable Giro Hex replacement at £75. But wiggle is [b]30%,[/b] yes 30%, cheaper[b] before[/b] discount voucher. This is too much for me to cover, so I bought from Wiggle.
But at the same time, local bookshop (that I have always loved and patronised) had Lakes MTB guide at @£16 versus Amazon at $11ish, an even bigger discount but somehow I wanted to use the shop as I have been doing on and off for 20 years. Where is my logic??
But its really quite simply - if the LBS offers a service that people value, it will stay in business, if not it won't. Simples! (unlike certain parts of our economy of course, but that's another story!).
What about places like Evans that offer price matching to CRC et al? Internet prices, the ability to try stuff out/on as well as mechanic services seem quite formidable in comparison. However the knowledge of the staff is not always as broad as I would like it to be.
I try and use my independent LBS if it's something I can't do myself, but I also see that as an opportunity to get new tools and learn more.
How can we produce more Danny Harts and Steve Peats if everyone gets someone else to work on their bike? I think it is an integral part of developing your riding to also enhance your mechanical knowledge. Understanding how the bike works makes it easier to ride/set up.
There are also a lot of other cyclists who are newcomers to the sport and would never think of shopping online. They are directly affected by the LBS' range. There are a high number of Ridgeback, Specialized and Halfraud's bikes in Brighton which is exactly what you can buy locally.
We also have a community bike service called Crank's where people are taught how to repair as they are guided through by a mechanic and the parts and labour are barely more than cost. It's a not for profit group that has gained a huge following. More of these please!
My L(ish)BS closed down about a year back, shame as the sunday rides used to be good, the pace seemed to drop off when it was no longer being led by the shop so I stoped going.
My actual LBS is rubbish, Ok so they organise the local race series which is good I suppose if you race, but they charge £17.99 for brake pads (thats one end, so £36 for a bikes worth!). With prices like that I often wonder why the L(ish)BS didnt survive.
+1 for teamhurt more. I just cant afford to ignore big price differences. Bike station is good for learning as well.
The LBS will survive. There are more bikes than ever in the UK and the vast majority of them will have owners who have absolutely no interest in servicing them.
Even most decent home mechanics reach their limits and rely on the LBS for the bigger jobs they don't have the tools/expertise to perform.
Mechanical knowledge is hard won. Practical skills take a while to develop especially when you are learning through trial and error.
A pure guess but here's how I reckon the general public breaks down regarding bike maintenance
Keeps it cleaned / lubed: 20%
Basic Maintenance - Indexing gears / changing pads/blocks: 10%
Can change parts / build a bike: >5%
Can service complex parts eg forks: >1%
Admittedly its probably also true that a large majority don't care that they are riding a creaky rusting piece of pig iron but there is still a massive gap between the home mechanic / enthusiast and even the majority of regualar / semi-regular cyclists
Feeling quite smug I'm in the 1% category 😀
From an LBS point of view.
Over the last couple of years I have seen my trade bias shift far more towards servicing than sales.
There is little point in me stocking anything much high end as if I did I'd still have most of it a year later and only be able to sell it for less than I'd have bought it for. I regularly have to apologise to customers for only being able to show them catalogue pictures of the products that would fit their requirements. I'd love to have a shop full of all the best stuff but if I did I'd eventually have a museum rather than a shop.
The big online retailers are always going to be able to offer the cheapest prices because they have the buying power to get their stock cheaply -- just like Tesco. Also, how much do they have to pay the staff who put your shiny new parts in cardboard boxes and tape them up?
The majority of my customers think £500 is a lot to spend on a bike and as long as the supermarkets etc continue to to sell cheap bikes I'll continue to make a living patching them up. It's always refreshing to have more enthusiastic and discerning customers in the shop but round here they are too few to be a significant part of my business model.
MB - interesting comments. What are your thoughts on product pricing? I cannot understand the inflation in pricing in most areas of mtb kit. Are suppliers deliberately restricting supply to keep prices high? How do plan for stock? In the current climate, why would you risk holding £2-5k bikes? Is the risk worth taking?
There are a couple of things I don't understand about the LBS business.
First is why do they not push back on the importers/manufactures refuse to take product from them if they don't give you a competitive pricing structure.
Why don't LBS sell online as well to get their volumes up? Ebay and Amazon allow simple entry into online sales.
Times are changing and customers need a compelling reason to spend money these days.
I do agree though with what has been said I think the average STW'er is probably not the market your typical LBS is targeting these days. Maybe they could though with the right plan in place.
If you are a good lbs then you will survive. Not everybody has the inclination to fix their bike, nor the tools, nor the space, nor the time. Customer service is paramount.
It's great that some sponsor young riders and races too.
My biggest complaint has always been the lack of demo bikes available, fine if you're a medium or large. I really believe that manufacturers should pull their finger out to help the retailers - any size should be available, for a charge obviously.
Demo bikes have always been a difficult one, from an uninformed perspective say you stock 3 makes, with perhaps 4 fundamentally different models and maybe go with 3 sizes as demos that would be 36 different demo bikes without breaking sweat.
And that is before you get in to people who want to try a custom build frame only option.
Good bike shops do exist and should be cherished for the effort they do put in. The world would be a lot worse if they died out and the only option for getting stuff fixed was Halfords.
Also - what price the benefit of being able to wander in to a bike shop with the kit you bought (and broke) hand it over with the sentence "look what happened?" and know that they will do something to resolve it.
On the subject of Demo bikes LBS's again need to push back on the suppliers to tell them they need to support them with this.
No car dealer would expect you to buy a car without having a test drive. You don't go into a BMW dealer and be told that they can't be expected to have a demo M3 because they are really expensive.
There are a couple of things I don't understand about the LBS business.First is why do they not push back on the importers/manufactures refuse to take product from them if they don't give you a competitive pricing structure.
[i]Because you would have no stock at all, some suppliers are better than others, and some are working harder than others at supporting LBS, but the big boys are very often bypassing the importers and going direct.[/i]
Why don't LBS sell online as well to get their volumes up? Ebay and Amazon allow simple entry into online sales.
[i]Because to do 'online' properly costs a lot more than setting up an LBS. Ebay/Amazon fees are astronomical and do not work on the 30-40% margins which are available to LBS'. I've run an onlibe bus for 10yrs, a LBS for 3, don't do online for the LBS as the cost of entry is now too high, can't compete with CRC, wiggle, merlin[/i]Times are changing and customers need a compelling reason to spend money these days.
[i]Yes, but the LBS is never going to be able to offer lower prices, we have to offer something which is different and less price sensitive[/i]I do agree though with what has been said I think the average STW'er is probably not the market your typical LBS is targeting these days. Maybe they could though with the right plan in place.
[i]The average STW'er is probably not a key target for the average LBS, although there is always the odd one who will shop local becuase they value having an LBS. STW'ers are generally pretty clued up on what they need and where to get it, and many can fit it themselves as well, so not really in need of local service, it is however very much worth doing your best to keep them happy, as they are likely to point work colleages etc in your direction, even if they themselves don't spend much.
Totally agree with you there shortcut. But as a 'small' size rider, it's jolly frustrating particularly if you want some bling! I've been known to completely tie myself in knots comparing geometry on various bikes.
I might add that I have been known to phone my lbs when I've had a mechanical on the trail. 😳