Designing it in the UK has never been a problem. It's manufacturing it in the UK that has.
Not only is it cheaper to make them in China etc but they now have the set up and expertise.
Unless the government goes all trump and puts massive tariffs on imported goods it will continue.
I guess a lot of companies are waiting to see which way the pound goes after brexit and by how much.
Best person to ask is Brant and what his thoughts are on this.
Does saying his name 3 times in a row still work ?
Unless the government goes all trump and puts massive tariffs on imported goods it will continue.
They would need to be on a much more massive scale that Trump is trying. I recently bought a Dolan Pre Cursa frame for just over £200. A nicely painted and pretty well made alu frame, carbon forks, headset, seat post and seat clamp for just over £200. To make that same frame in UK with UK labour on build and spraying etc,. would I guess be around £5-600.
No. Why would it make a difference?
Home grown bike design is pretty strong anyway and most bike manufacture is already outside of Europe.
Ignoring some sort of deal scenario as that’s just a load of pain for no real change, a No trade deal would make the likes of Canyon and Cube more expensive as it would mean double duty on them, which is good for Uk companies but for everyone else outside the EU it’s fairly irrelevant so normal business continues for the US etc.
Likely effect on uk based business would be a decline as the UK is less competitive in the mid term and more difficult to export. Devaluation of currency won’t help the manufacturing side really either unless you’re only selling frames and able to do all the forming etc. in the uk too, but even then if you’re that scale you need the EU sales at least as much if not more than the Uk so again it’s not really helping unless you’re big somewhere like the US. I think it might seem like a boon as you’re going to hear about companies opening offices in the EU and US etc. And that might sound good but I’m reaity it’s just moving jobs that could have been in the UK to elsewhere.
Thats before you consider the general economic impact on the uk of course. Assuming that brexit isn’t good for the economy in the short to mid term (I don’t think anyone could realistically think it will be) then Uk sales will fall and you’ll probably see a reduction in the number of UK based companies not a growth, irrespective of wider bike specific implications.
White Bikes in Norway (and Sweden and Finland apparently) make bikes for the domestic market that don't incur high import taxes.
I guess we might see similar companies growing in the UK.
They’re an own brand aren’t they? Like a Calibre but in the scandis. I don’t think they’re making anything actually in Norway so there’s no advantage for them over anyone else.
Oranges won't be any cheaper for us, a bit more expensive because we'll still have to buy in groupsets and raw materials with our weaker pound. But they might be cheaper for the rest of the world.
For the popular design here build in east business model its probably a no. Costs have already gone up and what will happen after the brexit proper doesn't look to promising (hoping my pessimistic outlook is wrong tbh but realistically?). I think some of our current british brands may find themselves in a precarious situation through no fault of there own having to have very hard negotiations with there suppliers. Starting up production on small scale high value product (thinking Stanton here) may work out well but can't see anyone investing in large scale production, no business confidence with all the unknowns?
Yeah, White bikes are like Calibre or BTwin, an own brand of a big sports retailer (XXL), definitely not manufactured domestically. Cutting out a distributor is how they keep prices down.
"Weak sterling is good for manufacturing"
Is the absolute definition of Tory thinking.
The cost of importing stuff goes up and the cost of exporting goes down, which means we can make and sell more. But that's only because wages effectively fall, you can buy less with them due to the inflation effect of weakening currency.
You could achieve the same thing if we all were prepared to do more work and take a pay cut, as that's what it means (we don't magically make more stuff) but that's harder to sell to an electorate.
Most material and components will be imported - costs will increase
Machinery and plant required for manufacturing is imported - costs will increase
We have chronic shortages for engineering and technical skills - we require migrant labour
Exports of finished product to the EU and US will probably incur import tariffs
Any slight advantages UK bike brands gain from Brexit are likely to be more than cancelled out by the way effect of the massive honking great Brexit induced recession that’s coming this way once we crash out next year.
Designing it in the UK has never been a problem. It’s manufacturing it in the UK that has.
Not only is it cheaper to make them in China etc but they now have the set up and expertise.
Unless the government goes all trump and puts massive tariffs on imported goods it will continue.
I guess a lot of companies are waiting to see which way the pound goes after brexit and by how much.
manufacturing isn't a problem and companies have two options
at the moment no one and i mean no with an interest in making a profit rather than amortizing it in their love of cycling and other manufacturing interests is interested in manufacturing anything for bike people because they want it for sweet **** all, then don't want to pay you and then think you are doing it for the love, companies that can, and we can make some of the most advanced frames in the world right here in blighty ,
you can now make a steel frame in the UK for 150 quid with no paint so can compete with china, but
but reality is (if you own a manufacturing company and arent balls deep in love with everything bike related) you think **** that i can make 50 of something for 2 grand a go i'm done at 5pm every day and don't have to work weekends and the Manufacturing cell has made me 50k and paid for itself in a year so why would i risk losing all the profit on a batch of frames if one fails and i have to remake it (plus the damage to your rep when the dreaded uh oh their shit is rubbish emerges and their are some little tossbags that have never built a thing in their life are borderline clueless but will make it their life acheivment to try and bad mouth you)
the easy answer is you sell direct instead of making for other people (and its something you toy with) but then think shit i have to build a brand (it wont matter who you have done work for in the past and the experience level you have or just sheer volume of frames if you suck at branding
you have to majorly kiss arse in a very fickle customer facing market and if you cant do it yourself then you have to pay to play and get someone else in give them a job to do as brand am
the other way is you set up direct yourself invest at least a few years learning all the shit that goes with materials supply chains finishing machinery costs running etc etc , if you have a couple of hundred k to invest in gear and the time and sheer force of will you might just build something and sell it
so what do you think , do you want a go or not
Ps the 7000 series aluminium i buy from europe has already gone up 20% or so on this order alone, so im thinking right now i might make here in britain but europe may still screw me on price
I'd pay more for a UK built bike, all EU based bikes are off my shopping list..
Most people are now predicting a Brexit based recession or slow down as it looking more and more likely a no deal Brexit. Niche, beautifully finished UK designed and built frames are very much disgressionary purchases, hence I can’t see an upturn in these post Brexit.
The UK has 1 Aluminium Smelter and a shrinking steel industry, we have excellent Carbon Fibre tech though if you want to pay F1 prices. It's not a good starting point really is it. If all the materials for the bike need to be imported it's not going to be that cheap
Brompton doing very well at it.
Carbon Fibre tech though
Purely out of interest do we make the fibre or pre preg in the UK or import it?
I am often surprised when I order something I think is local (Europe) then get a notice it has shipped from China.
As an aisde, I’m fairly sure at Planet X we make bikes in Britain.
We bring the parts together from all over the world (China, Taiwan, Europe) and assemble them in the Uk. Just like all the car manufacturers who make cars in Britain do.
Just In Time deliveries from key suppliers keep us lean. Smart speccing of common parts on many models helps us shift around specs as supply changes.
At Hebtroco we have been critiqued about our use of German moleskin and even the use of a Pug (a foreign dog) in our promotional material. Someone above is questioning country of origin of fibre.
I’m currently sat in a German bath in North Holland drinking Chilean wine.
🤷🏻♂️
No.
Well the point of origin of material has an influence when discussing tariffs.
If we start doing a Trump and non local raw materials are used there is an impact. And obviously once we are out of the EU minimus rules for exports and country of origin will impact us.
@brant how many of the components were fabricated in the UK? Lots of car parts are.
All the Trouser parts are “fabricated” in the uk. Though “fabricated” is just cut of out cloth.
I meant the bikes...
I thought cars were mostly made by robots now?
We have not been able to find a Trouser making robot in the uk. Or a bike assembling one.
I’ve seen wheel assembling robots in the uk.
OK, nice asides there.... for ref most boutique brands are assembled in whatever country they are bought in it's nowt special though wherever you have chosen to have your parts/frames made be proud of it, you chose it for a reason so tell us why it's the best place to have that thing made.
Quite the contrary. Most brands ship bikes in boxes all over the world.
I mean, keeping it close to this forum, Jeff Jones specifically has bikes boxed in China to make his bikes affordable.
Jeff Jones specifically has bikes boxed in China to make his bikes affordable.
That is the crux of it really. Is it just labour that makes it more affordable or is it the raw materials, mfg facilities etc are all in one place?
i think even my “boutique” frame was made in Taiwan... possibly only the hope components were actually made in the UK...
Purely out of interest do we make the fibre or pre preg in the UK or import it
Both, we have large scale production for fibre and prepreg production there are facilities in the UK for formulating also .
Quite the contrary. Most brands ship bikes in boxes all over the world.
Which isn't what I said. The guys who sell frame only and a lot of customisation will have it mostly assembled in country at the LBS.
Is there any part of the manufacturing you see on one bringing into the UK there Brant?
Before I left in 2014 we were planning a deeply cynical project involving shipping a lot of cut tubes, welding jigs and parts here, sticking a Taiwanese welder on a plane and having him put the frames together here.
Its funny as around the same time I met my girlfriend who’s an art curator and basically, positioned right, this is an art project, bringing into question what “made in Britain” actually means.
And post Brexit Vote, I guess even more so, except maybe the welder needs to be Polish.
That would have been amusing and all, but in terms of art, I'd prefer a nice painting.
this is an art project
I like this idea. Haha.
sticking a Taiwanese welder on a plane and having him put the frames together here.
except maybe the welder needs to be Polish.
Brant, is this because its cheaper than employing a British welder or because we don't have the expertise available in Britain to weld? Or a bit of both ?
Bizarre that some have taken this thread seriously.
A local wool processing company near me ten years ago shipped a complete factory to Poland. It was cheaper to drive to Poland with wool and pick up processed wool and bring it back once a week than process it in the UK with a 10 mile journey.
After 8 years of doing this they realised it was no longer cost effective as fuel prices had risen and wages in Poland had risen. They sold the factory in Poland and then didn't have a processing plant in the UK or qualified staff to produce it. They then used a competitor to process the wool then eventually sold the company to Chinese investors.
Bizarre that some have taken this thread seriously.
Perhaps you'd rather have a what tyre question or help me with my tubeless tyre question ?
🤔