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I'm becoming a grumpy old man and can't understand why there's so much hype about a new derailleur hanger standard?
I mean, I understand there are benefits to it (although... if it's stiffer and stronger does this not jeopardise the frame?).
Specialized seem to have made it part of the branding of their new frames and there have been numerous breathless articles about it.
Have manufacturers really run out of things to shout about, or is this some sort of really big deal that those of us still running 11spd mechanical shifting haven't seen the need for?
New?
For SRAM it was the Trojan horse that made it possible to launch Transmission
For consumers it would be great to have a single hanger standard and that is how it gained popularity.
But I don't have a single UDH bike. As an alternative I have one or two spare hangers for probably every bike I have ever owned as they have all been different
I’ve decided today that UDH is a pain in the arse.
I’ve just been stripping a frame to swap bits on to a new frame and the bush/sleeve that goes in the frame for the T-Type derailleur fell apart. Now I need a new one but nowhere has them in stock.
Bugger.
Apart from that, I quite like the whole UDH system but each to their own.
I'm with the OP - it is a sacrificial item to save mech and frame, so if it is suddenly strong enough to stand on, those bump forces are going to be going elsewhere...not ideal.
I don't have it, but if the new bike choices had it, I'd probably avoid it due to my thinking.
No doubt an engineer will be along to explain why my thinking is wrong, but I can't see the benefit myself.
Having only ever bent 4 mech hangars over the years - and 3 of those were user error! - I'm not seeing the benefit of the udh system.
It's not that I don't recognise there might be benefits, although given that my shifting is already as good or better than my fingers can tell I don't think they're for me.
It's just the disproportionate level of hype as if it was something revolutionary like discs or tubeless or something.
I don’t have it, but if the new bike choices had it, I’d probably avoid it due to my thinking.
Better not be looking for a new bike in the next few years then, as I imagine every new bike or redesign coming out will have one.
The haters say it’s awful because SRAM only did it to get frames ready for Transmission. This is absolutely true but it doesn’t stop you from using any traditional bolt on mech from the last 40 years. I’ve two bikes with UDH and it works exactly like any other hanger, with the bonus that I only need to keep one spare for both bikes.
DickBarton
Full MemberI’m with the OP – it is a sacrificial item to save mech and frame,
Honestly I don't think this is very true any more. Modern hangers tend to be seriously burly, and a bunch of them are built into the axle in a similiar way to UDH. When I think back to older bikes, I'm pretty confident that most of the times I had a gear problem, it was because of a flimsy hanger bending or breaking when it didn't have to. I mean, I definitely lost a bunch of spokes and a couple of mechs to this because mechs ended up in wheels where they just didn't have to and I even saw frames damaged when a "sacrificial" hanger bent in the wrong way. By definition sacrificial means introducing a weakness because it has to be weaker than the part you're protecting, and that means more failures, so it's essential that the failures you get are smaller and better- and often they're just not, and frankly often they're worse. But few modern bikes with bolt-throughs are like that now and I think it's been a huge improvement. I don't even have spare hangers for a couple of my bikes now, when I used to carry them around with me.
(this isn't specifically UDH, just "tough like UDH is", which is a trend going back at least a decade)
If you're going to have a sacrificial part it should be in the mech not in the bike. Reason being, that way it can be tailored to the mech, its bulk and length and strength. And also that way you need less items to actually do it, rather than 50 million unique mechhangers of varying complexity you have at worst 1 per mech design. So that's the only thing I'd change, SRAM mentioned rebuildability when they launched T Type but I'm not sure that's really delivered enough to be really useful?
This is absolutely true but it doesn’t stop you from using any traditional bolt on mech from the last 40 years.
So? The point is sacrificial hangers of simple construction are on the way out, not that you can’t hang a traditional mech on your frame. The UDH, with its multiple bits and “rotate a bit to protect” rather than “bend and die” all metal hangers is a different approach that doesn’t appeal to everyone [different flaws, different cause]… but it looks like they’ll have little choice. Also, UDH (and transmission) was very much designed with carbon frames in mind… Shimano are just as bad with Flat Mount…neater solutions are possible with metal bikes.
If you’re going to have a sacrificial part it should be in the mech not in the bike.
Think of the mech hanger being the sacrificial bit of the mech, which in effect it is.
Back in the day, mech hangers were never meant to be sacrificial, merely replaceable. Never really saw them before aluminium frames became commonplace. You didn’t need them with steel frames, as you just bent them back into line. Alu hangers broke easily in the incident or of you tried to bend them back, so replaceable ones became a thing.
11 and especially 12 speed rely on proper alignment for good shifting. Weak hangers that are easily twisted minute amounts wreak havoc with shifting. Much less of a problem with stiffer hangers.
There is also the side benefit of going to one pitch for the axle threads instead of the three options that existed before.
I’ve seen the broken frames online as well, but it seems to affect certain brands more than others. I think it’s more to do with how frame manufacturers have integrated the hanger, rather than the concept itself.
UDH is 50 million, billion times better than this...
I could put disc brake pads up there as well. But one pad shape to rule them all is a compromise that wouldn’t be welcome. Reducing down to a handful of pad shapes would mean all applications could be catered for, while making it easier to source spare/replacement pads. There’s a whole world between proprietary proliferation and only one option that doesn’t work for all purposes (or all frame designs).
My UDH very definitely did not sacrifice itself yesterday, just a bit distorted so it was new chain, mech, hanger and spokes time. Everything bent and distorted; botheration.
Given the price of axs rear mechs, I'd much prefer the hangar was replaceable/sacrificial as it would be cheaper to replace.
I really like the idea of it as it does solve many issues, but the reality means it isn't as great (in my view) as it sounds on paper.
@shartattack, don't be daft! That's only a fraction of the real number of hanger varieties that exist.
UDH - being a multiple bike owner I can't see a downside. I'm not flash enough to run fancy wireless mechs - much rather have mechanical 12-sp Shimano with XT/XTR shifter (and other bits) but rear mech Deore is good enough. Cheaper to replace if things go wrong, more palatable sacrificial cost versus a XT or XTR.
Having had to replace a bent UDH recently I am all for them as my AXS original mech survived, so I am a thumbs up here. Like a few others I love that I can get one instantly from any good bike shop whereas mech hangers of old were specific so your bought a spare (and yes I have a spare UDH too) but the chance of getting a hanger in a bike shop non udh was days whereas UDH instant :/
Yes SRAM did it with a long game in mind, no doubt, but I am still a fan and no I don't run transmission.
James
Essentially sharkattack has it. Yeah it was was a slightly sneaky trick to make sure the market had enough frames compatible by default with SRAM's Transmission mechs, but it has been a net benefit.
I do also note SRAM's recent filing of a patent for a Universal Brake Mount (UBM?), are they pulling the same trick at the other end of the axle? and if so does that have any real benefit for users and/or frame manufacturers?
Oh FFS, I’m so sorry @sharkattack. Too late to edit!
Eh?
@shartattack
Oh I see, that is a classic! 🙂 🙂
Yeah as a typo that is quite funny. It also took me ages to spot it.
No-one would have spotted it either if you hadn't apologized 🙂
kelvin
Full Member(me: If you’re going to have a sacrificial part it should be in the mech not in the bike.)
Think of the mech hanger being the sacrificial bit of the mech, which in effect it is.
Nah, that's missing the point. The mech hanger doesn't know what mech is attached, doesn't know if you have a 10 speed Saint or a 7 speed exage or a big long modern singlespeed 10-52er. One size can't fit all, different mechs are differently strong, differently bulky. The mech hanger can't adapt for that, the mech can.
And also as I mentioned if you have a sacrificial part it should be simple, 5000 different mech hangers are a terrible way to do it, a link on a mech is a very simple way to do it because you only need at most one design per mech design. And also easier to replace.
5000 different mech hangers are a terrible way to do it
Absolutely. Making rear mechs disposable isn’t the solution. Although I do only run Deore now, so I could live with that… other people are running mechs that are far too expensive to be binned off. And don’t give me the “repairable” line… spare parts for Sram mechs are always a rip off. But most modern Shimano mechs do have a bolt on link/bracket between the main mech and the hanger… so they’re already offering what you suggest I suppose.
Making rear mechs disposable isn’t the solution.
Mech hangers were never meant to protect the mech, they're protecting the frame. I've got a whole box of bent rear mechs to prove it!
Most of the pre-UDH hangers are basically UDH style anyway. It makes absolute sense to integrate it with the rear axle to save parts and brace it properly. The axle isn't going to bend.
I'm slightly irked that my new Ti bike won't have UDH but road seems to be at least a generation behind it at this point so I doubt it will ever be an issue, I can still find 20 year old 10s parts in good condition on eBay so in 20 years there will probably still be r7100 bits. It doesn't even use Shimano's direct mount standard!
Add me to the people that UDH has wrecked rear triangle
failed to break away, rotated the mech into my carbon rear triangle - rear triangle cracked/gouged and new rear triangle on route
mech was completely buggered and still to this day have no idea what happened but the mech did not break away from the UDH like a normal mech hanger would have done, it just rotated everything around gouging everything in its path
So I do like the simplicity of one mech hanger for everything but the days of the mech hanger snapping off the mech away from the frame are gone with this UDH the frame just takes the hit instead
is this some sort of really big deal that those of us still running 11spd mechanical shifting haven’t seen the need for?
What, it goes up to 11 now? My bikes are still mostly 9 speed and 26" wheels.
Reading the above got me thinking...
Is there a market for UDHs made of cheese?
All the benefits of compatibility.
All the benefits of 'sacrificial'.
My Crux has UDH but running a standard GRX mech. Price for a spare is cheap, I’ve had some frames where the manufacturer has taken the piss for cost of a spare hanger.
hype about a new derailleur hanger standard?
It's the first standard isn't it?
I wrote off 2 mechs in two days last year with Basque mtb. Mech hanger was fine. Rear triangle battered. Mechs inyo wheel so damaged spokes too.
udh is a hood idea but allowing it to rotate seems a bad idea.
In 20y of riding, I have never broken a mech or hanger, so this is all a bit “meh” from me. I do like the idea of a single axle standard, however. It’s about time.
I'm a Shimano guy and don't think I'll be running SRAM gears any time soon but think UDH is a great idea, some frames out there only 5 year old are a nightmare to get a hanger for, a 2020 Mega for example.
I know there's lots of hangers, but they often just standard from a catalogue so not hard to get. Superstar used to/may still do keep stock of a lot of different hangers. But UDH wrecking frames and wheels? Can't be right, but I am in the mindset that hangers are sacrificial so usually keep spares as they are relatively cheap if you get catalogue versions. Bitd I used to run breakaway mech bolts. Same principle but cheaper.
I know there’s lots of hangers, but they often just standard from a catalogue so not hard to get...
Which catalogue would that be? There's no universal reference for all mech hangers covering all frame manufacturers across the last 30 odd years. And paying £30+ to replace a bit of stamped Aluminium worth maybe 50p when it was made a decade earlier does make you wince if you ever have to do it (trust me). Multiple flavours of the same thing was never a sustainable practice.
UDH was a long overdue bit of standardisation, it covers 148 and 142x12 frames, and you don't need to rely on the original frame manufacturer still being about to replace one down the line, plus if you own multiple bikes, having them all UDH would make perfect sense, Very few people will be in that position yet, but in time I would hope to be...
As for breaking mechs and wheels, replaceable hangers were never supposed to prevent that sort of damage, but they were supposed to give your frame (the most expensive bit typically) a fighting chance, I reckon UDH still does that.
In 20y of riding, I have never broken a mech or hanger, so this is all a bit “meh” from me.
In 20y of riding I've broken at least half a dozen mechs and double the hangers so it's a hallelujah from me.
I've never broken a UDH but I have a spare that will fit both current bikes and probably any future bikes I have. I just checked and they're available for a tenner.
Which catalogue would that be? There’s no universal reference for all mech hangers covering all frame manufacturers across the last 30 odd years. And paying £30+ to replace a bit of stamped Aluminium worth maybe 50p
I know. Superstar used to be good though. Match the shape and bolt pattern and it fitted exactly. £8 each when I last bought some. Also bought some from somewhere else but forgot where.
I don't see it as a big deal nor have seen any hype. Maybe I wasn't looking for it to be fair.
It sounds brilliant.
I reckon UDH still does that.
Does it though?
People bemoaning hard to source hangers… be ready for hard to source rear ends in years to come when your mech has taken it out. Although if you just avoid carbon rears, you’ll probably be fine.
I don’t see it as a big deal nor have seen any hype. Maybe I wasn’t looking for it to be fair.
It sounds brilliant
Useful thread for me, I guess I see I was being needlessly cynical as I didn't really believe it would become standard, I just assumed it was yet another shape of derailleur hanger to add to shartattack's chart 😆
The hype was at least one advertorial for the new Specialized Crux on road.cc which mentioned UDH at least twice a paragraph. Someone seemed to be getting very excited about it on one of the Gravel FB pages I follow, and GravelUnion's latest email newsletter was all about it as well.
It sounds like a genuinely useful innovation but still not sure it merits the coverage, despite me having snapped and bent a hanger recently!
The hype was at least one advertorial for the new Specialized Crux on road.cc which mentioned UDH at least twice a paragraph
As I recall that was about the only change, so gotta milk it
I’ve never broken a UDH but I have a spare that will fit both current bikes and probably any future bikes I have. I just checked and they’re available for a tenner.
Not to mention you can walk into pretty much any bike shop and they'll probably have one in stock. I've never really understood why so many derailleur hangers were necessary most of the 20 or so bikes I've built have been different, and I've broken so many I wouldn't be without a spare, so thank you SRAM for finally coming up with something it appears frame manufacturers are getting behind.
Does it though?
People bemoaning hard to source hangers… be ready for hard to source rear ends in years to come when your mech has taken it out. Although if you just avoid carbon rears, you’ll probably be fine.
Well if you're trashing a whole chain/seat stay I reckon the hanger is the least of your concerns.
I know. Superstar used to be good though. Match the shape and bolt pattern and it fitted exactly. £8 each when I last bought some. Also bought some from somewhere else but forgot where.
Fantastic! except SS aren't really an option today are they, and the faff of getting someone to machine a bespoke doodad when the industry has finally settled on a common standard feels a bit foolish now IMO.
Don't get me wrong, I've got multiple bikes and thus multiple bloody spare hangers, I've played the game for a few years myself it's not hard, just annoying. It's also sometime quite shocking how quickly hangers for some frame vanish from common sources once a model is discontinued. The best luck I've had in recent years has been through AliExpress which is obviously a bit of a gamble, ordering a (cheap) thing that looks about right on screen, typically turns out OK, but that's hardly ideal... I'd dearly love to have a couple of spare UDH and all of my bikes compatible.
I think my cube is UDH and its utter bobbins making the axle hard to insert and allowing the deraillier to flop about if the axle is out. Something is out of alignment despite the dished washers.
I’m with the OP – it is a sacrificial item to save mech and frame,
In my experience the mech and hanger rip out the carbon frame, writing off the frame, luckily with FS, it's normally just a new rear triangle required.
My UDH very definitely did not sacrifice itself yesterday, just a bit distorted so it was new chain, mech, hanger and spokes time. Everything bent and distorted; botheration.
I have had this with a UDH hanger, but also with a normal hanger in recent years. Whereas in the past the mech hanger has snapped off and left everything else intact.
I do feel like the mechs have become the sacrificial part anyway.
Mechs destroying frames isn't a new thing though is it.
I wrecked a Cove frame back in about 05/06 when the mech ripped the hanger out of the frame instead of breaking the replaceable hanger.
Have a few bikes with UDH. It's no different in functional terms that any of the other bikes we have with proprietary hangers.
Other than it's easy to get a replacement at short notice from almost any bike shop.
Hell you can even use a UDH with the new wireless XTR mech that I saw the other day.
Sour Cycles almost-UDH looks neat for steel frames. Not sure how easy they'd be to import from the EU though...
@Singlespeedstu Are Shimano adopting Transmission then?