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it skidded a tiny bit...I just left it a bit too late
Yeh, that'd be pretty scary
I revise my previous suggestion:
... discs, adjustable seatposts and ABS
and armour, maybe
I assume that this means that my out of date, heavy, uncompetitive 12/ 20 spoke carbon wheelset will be made even lighter than the 960 grams that they weigh currently with the introduction of lightweight disc specific rims?
you guys are mixing up road riding with racing
just cos the racers don't want/need it doesn't mean regular road riders are the same.
take compact cranks. Racers didn't use them so nobody else did, and five years ago you couldn't even buy a road compact. Times change. Regular riders started to realise that 39/53 was too high for them so started a shift towards smaller rings. Now you can get the new Dura Ace in 34/50.
Same thing with discs. I don't care what the racers run. I don't race. The 'sport' is irrelevant. I value good brakes, simple as that. And discs are better than DPs, in lots of ways.
reggie - you're confusing riding on the road with riding on a road bike. The latter is done largely for sporting reasons - if not racing then fast training in groups, or sportives - and a lot of the people buying those bikes want their bikes to look the same as the pros. Also for those purposes there really aren't any advantages to disc brakes (compact chainsets are a totally different issue, and have also been used by pros in mountain stages). Maybe you should enumerate some of the "lots" of ways discs are better in the context of road bikes.
** cough **
I've been using road compact since 1996, and so has my SO. All of my road bikes have compact gearing, and the same with my SO. That'd be 6 bikes then 3 of which date back to the 20th century.
I don't road race, and I value good braking, but I find that DP/SP (Italian you see) brakes work pretty damn well. I can't imagine riding the routes I've done in the Pyrenees or Alps with a road bike with disc brakes, certainly not with the technology available at the moment.
I think it's because roadies are snobby bastards, who wouldn't want to be seen following MTB technology; that's really what it is.
Good one that. Most unfriendly cyclists I have met have always been on mountain bikes.
Ever wondered why the MTBers you meet on the trails never look you in the eye? It's because they're checking out whether you've got brakes they approve of....
I think reggie makes a fair point, and is right about compacts, but I'm not sure the logic applies to brakes. Compacts allow weaker amateur riders to get up big hills easily with their spindly little legs. Disc brakes appear to be overkill given the limitations of traction for professional racers descending the highest passes in Europe at absurdly high speeds on closed roads. It is not clear to whom they offer an advantage therefore.
🙂
The latter is done largely for sporting reasons
it's not confusion aracer, it's just an assumption. I am assuming that most road riders are not racers, just regular riders. I may be wrong of course but of all the road riders I know the majority don't race.
That's not to say they don't want to look like the pros though! 😯
In the club I sometimes ride with there are plenty of 'professional' jerseys being worn but only a handful actually compete.
I think for racers the addition of discs is marginal, as weight will be a big issue. But for me, I'd give up, say 200g, to have better braking.
[i]yes, for all the reasons just given[/i]
Which were?
'Too powerful' - use smaller diameter discs, reducing the power compared to a MTB disc.
'Lock the wheels' - all brakes will, if applied strongly enough. Relatively easy to design more modulation into the lever.
So, the advantages (again):
Less material at rim = lower mass = less rotating weight = greater acceleration + increased braking efficiency.
Better in foul wet weather.
Rim brakes rely on very true rims, to be fully efficient. Discs do away with this issue. Dent a rim/snap a spoke on a 100 mile ride, no worries.
You could probably design little discs and caliper systems that would weigh as much, if not less, than rim brakes. imagine; really cute little mini caliper systems. Maybe even little carbon caliper housings! More bling! You could even house the caliper in the fork leg!!!!
See? Makes perfect sense, and youse all know it.
Any manufacturers out there; this is my concept, so don't nick it, or I will want loads of money.
Happy happy joy joy! [img] 
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Have you looked at a modern road frame recently? Do you really think any of them will run with a rim which is more than about 1-2mm out of true? I can't think of any time that I've managed to significantly damage a road wheel sufficiently for it not to be rideable - I'm still riding a 10 year old Campag Electron climb-dynamic wheelset that has had one problem and that was due to me sticking a metal sign into the spokes by accident - its still true to within 1mm after 10 years and over 25,000 miles of riding.
Oh, and you'll also need to redesign the forks and frames to take disc brakes.
Oh, and are there any 12 spoke disc wheelsets out there?
Didn't think so.
"[i]'Lock the wheels' - all brakes will, if applied strongly enough.[/i]"
exactly
"[i]Less material at rim = lower mass = less rotating weight = greater acceleration + increased braking efficiency.[/i]"
more material in hub and frame to deal with the different forces disc-brakes exert = greater mass = more weight to drag along = slower everything
"[i]Rim brakes rely on very true rims, to be fully efficient. Discs do away with this issue. Dent a rim/snap a spoke on a 100 mile ride, no worries.[/i]"
in over 20 years of road riding i've had precicely one snapped spoke meaning i merely undid the brakes a bit, this isn't really an issue
"[i]Makes perfect sense, and youse all know it.[/i]"
if it made sense it would already be done, the technology is out there, it just isn't necessary
you sound like you've already made up your mind and are merely being confused by the facts
(knowing wink)
Can't see why not. Headset designs/sizes have changed a fair bit over the last 10-20 years, so why not integrate disc mounts?
Since no-one has actually come up with a good reason NOT to have little discs on road bikes, I'll assume that there is none.
Or, has it more to do with UCI regulations, which ban the use of discs on road bikes?
Eh? Eh?
Got to love all you armchair experts, though. Keep it up, people, you're amusing!
This is now officially dull, although I am glad it amuses Rudeboy.
UCI regs prevent the use of discs on CX bikes. There are plenty of CX bikes around with discs. They are presumably ridden by people who do not ride UCI regulated races, and perceive performance benefits to discs.
UCI regs also prevent the use of disc brakes on road racing bikes. There are practically no road bikes with discs. We accept that their benefits to racers would be dubious. Someone has suggested they would be helpful for fat guys who don't race. Perhaps this is right, but UCI regulations are not the reason fat guys who don't race don't have road bikes with disc brakes. There must be another reason.
It is possible that fat guys who ride road bikes but don't race are idiots, although it does account for a lot of people who are otherwise quite clever. It may be that they want to look "pro", although god help them, watching the chubby guys in their sausage-skin outfits churning around Richmond Park it's difficult to imagine they think the illusion that they are a pro is maintained when they're on the bike, even if it doesn't have disc brakes.
Or, just possibly, loads of people who do and don't race, and are of a fair old range of sizxes and abilities, including a fair few bike designers have thought about the issue and decided that fitting disc brakes does not give an advantage, or no cost-effective advantage for most people.
😀
Oh, and sorry. I do not believe I am going to see miniature ickle carbon disc brake calipers built into the fork legs of the £1,000 bikes that are entirely adequate for my not-racing-very-hard needs anytime soon. Although they do sound cool...
🙂
But there is an increasing number of hybrid and 700c 'sports' bikes that are coming equipped with discs, and surely discs are what you'd want, on a CX bike? (Can we see a pic of your bike again, please, druidh?)
No, I'd say it's pretty obvious that the only reason we are not seeing little discs on 'racing bikes' (remember when all bikes with drop handlebars were 'racers'?): UCI regulations. As to why they aren't on lower end non 'professional' 'racing' bikes, is that people want something that resembles what the TDF guys have.
So, the main REAL reasons: Banned by UCI and fashion.
Thanks for the valiant attempts at answering the question, though, guys!
BD: Small things, and all that. I am easily amused, I must say. I nearly messed meself earlier, because some woman on the radio was talking a bout a mouse that stole a Malteser from her bag. It doesn't take a lot, I tell you.
But imagine, BD; really cute little discs and calipers, all shiny and nice...
I want them.
I am going to have them.
Oh, I've lost the will to live now.
there is a chicken and a egg thing going on here...
the negatives claim that, and I quote
bike designers have thought about the issue and decided that fitting disc brakes does not give an advantage
but what about the bike buying public? Why don't you let them decide whether they are a good idea?
The answer is that the bikes don't exist! You can't buy a disc-ready roadie. You can't even buy a decent disc-ready carbon fork (easily) and disc-ready 700c wheels are thin on the ground, and usually quite heavy. Only the commuter market is moving in that direction.
Oh don't be sad, aP. Do you want a hug?
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Cheeze! I type in the word 'cute' in Google, and the filth! Bloody hell...
I've added another tag to this thread for you, RudeBoy.
This is a bit silly and some people are not thinking things through. Road bikes have thin little tyres that offer little grip. The brakes on them apply sufficient force already to overcome the low grip levels, so no more power is necessary.
Disc brakes weigh considerably more, they rub a bit etc. when 15 seconds separates a group of riders over a multi-week race, every gram and watt counts.
[i]I've added another tag to this thread for you, RudeBoy.[/i]
Which one???!!?
I am right and youse are all rong!
I like using my disc'd cx bike on the road (with 23mm tyres). Braking is the same whatever the weather and I can use the same wheels offroad without any issues with trueness. I don't have any interest in racing so I'm after a fast(ish) road bike with drops that can be used offroad and requires as little maintanance as possible (IME discs are always less hassle than rim brakes).
I've not had any issues with unwanted lock-ups - that's with 160mm BB7s.
I tow the kids trailer with my road bike. The 105 calipers work well enough if its dry, but discs would be nice. If I can persuade the Mrs to get me a Roadrat on her BTW scheme I'll spec that with disks.
I do not accept the argement that discs are too much for roadbike tyres. You can never have too much brake and if you lock wheels / go over the bars its not the brakes fault but your lack of skill.
Can't say I have any issues with braking with normal calipers even when towing. Road calipers do actually work remarkably well - better in general than cantis or even Vs. Meanwhile this mention of road bikes having little grip keeps coming up - strange comment when a road slick on tarmac actually has more grip than a knobbly either on road or on typical off-road.
The reason I have discs on my MTB isn't to do with power, modulation, or even working in the wet (all of which calipers or Vs are fine for), but working in mud and dirt and not wearing my rims out in said conditions.
I don't know about too much braking, TJ, but you can have sufficient, and if you can lock the rear or endo over the front then that is sufficient. A well set up caliper (which isn't that hard to manage) can do either.
aracer - even in the wet and cold? Its a long time since I have ridden with road calipers but I do remember them not working well in the wet and cold. Perhaps this has been improved greatly.
To me the main advantage of discs is not wearing rims out.
It's all down to having the right brake blocks - which have improved a lot in recent years. But even average (ie Shimano) blocks work fine in wet and cold nowadays.
Couldn't agree more with your main advantage of discs - is the principle reason I went that way on the MTB - but not a problem I seem to get on the road (some worn rims, but they are many, many years old). The only major problem I have with this now is on the cx-bike - would certainly go for discs on one of those if buying now.
The first attempt at braking after a long, non-stop ride on a cold/wet day can certainly be interesting. Seems to be much better when things have warmed up.
But I'm talking about both disks and calipers.
LOL! Love some of the tags at the top of this thread!
(Does a little dance, because none of the nay-sayers have come up with a conclusive argument against the use of discs on a roadbike)
Presumably you've missed or ignored all the comments pointing out that the system as a whole would be heavier and more expensive, and given the marginal benefits when riding a racing bike you simply can't justify those disadvantages?
What has expense got to do with anything? There are plenty of road bikes out there, that cost more than most MTBs. Which have suspension and all sorts of other gubbins, that you think would make them far pricier.
Weight? I think any weight penalty would be marginal, with careful design, and with new materials/production techniques coming out all the time, I would say that issue would be swiftly negated.
EG: XTR disc hubs are only marginally heavier than Dura Ace non-disc ones. And there are things like Tune disc hubs, that weigh less than most 'road' hubsets. Caliper/disc/lever sets, in tiny road bike rotor sizes, could be made as light as a set of road calipers, levers and cables, I'm sure. As for extra frame material, this would be offset by lighter rims, and not needing a mounting point for caliper brakes.
No, sorry, still not having it. The only real obstacles seem to be rules, stuffiness, and fashion.
Your weight calcs are out. Sure you can get disc hubs weighing not much more than 100g, but that's still 50g more than a non-disc hub. You can get caliper brakes for <200g a pair, and levers for <100g a pair, so a complete system for ~350g including cables, which is little more than one end of a lightweight hydraulic disc. How much lighter are MTB disc only rims (and how much do you reckon you could save off current <250g rims)? Have you not noticed that the mounting point for a caliper comes for free with a frame - arguably you're adding weight by not drilling the hole!
Main obstacle is still lack of any advantage.
What has expense got to do with anything?Well, it tends to feed into cost-effectiveness. If you aren't racing, why would you chase negligible performance benefits at escalating cost? Most recreational riders have a budget.
Let us assume that you are correct that disc brakes could be brought in on the same weight, but let us also assume (as you do) that they would be more expensive.
Therefore, as a recreational rider, for a given budget, I can have a bike with adequate brakes and a very very light frame, or a bike with brakes that are more powerful than is strictly required at the cost of a heavier frame. And, to cap it all, my bike won't be race legal. I know which I am going to go for. Your answer may be different.
I don't care, when road racers have tiny little disc brakes I shall have one with tiny little disc brakes, just as I have a mountain bike with disc brakes these days. But I can understand why it isn't a priority for designers and manufacturers, or, indeed, almost anyone except you.
🙂
You constantly go on about lighter rims - but my cx wheels have rims which weigh about 350g and they're nothing special, Reynolds carbon sprint rims weigh about 200g. How much lighter exactly do you envisage making them disc specific would make them?
You do realise that a lot of people now ride 35-50mm deep rims for aero benefits, so how would you make these lighter?
For commuting bikes discs are fine but for fast, lightweight road bikes I still don't think discs are at the right level of technology, weight or useability yet. Maybe in 5 years they will, but not now.
No, sorry, still not having it. The only real obstacles seem to be rules, stuffiness, and fashion.
but disks are an answer to a problem that doesn't really exist.
Q: are current road brakes powerful enough to overcome the grip of a 23c tyre and does their use enable the user to accurately modulate available braking power?
A: yes.
Q: are disk brakes needed on road bikes?
A: no.
I remember the debate over suspension for MTBs, plenty were convinced that whilst a couple of firms were pushing it it had no real benefits and would not stand the test of time.
There are plenty of punters out there who will buy something because it is different or perceived more "hi-tech". Marketing dudes know this.
Only a fool would say that high-end roadie bikes will NEVER have disc brakes.
Q: Are discs better than rim brakes?
A: Yes
Q: If you could have discs and suffer no weight or cost penalty would you have them?
A:
Q: Can pigs fly?
A: No
Q: If pigs could fly, would that be AWESOME?
A: Hell YES!!!
🙂
Thanks for the replies and answers... 🙂
TBH MTBs do not need discs either...cantis or vs are perfectly acceptable. More sophistication and technology for us to part with our well earned dosh!
Just been Reading through this thread with much amusement. Why, exactly is a road bike only a racing, and anything else with skinny tyres and drop bars isn't a road bike? Sorry, I'm confused. Druidh's Sutra is a touring bike. It's for riding distances on the road. It has skinny tyres and drop bars. That makes it a road bike. To say otherwise makes you a snob. I also have a Sutra, with one gear, aero bars and bar-end levers with cross-top levers as well. It's a road bike. It's not a tourer, it's not a cx bike, and it's most definitly not a mountain bike. It does, however have discs. And a Brooks Swift Ti saddle. ;0)
Cant be bothered to read all this, but I presume somone has mentiond because there not needed.