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I was drawn to Ale as a brand due to their colourful and bright kit. Over the years they have got more and more subdued and black. I would guess this is the answer, people don't buy bright kit.
My shorts are end of life, and I cannot replace with the nice bright summer shorts like I bought previously. I also had winter shorts with nice day glo yellow panels, but all their new kit is black. Sad.
I was dumbfounded to see a roadie yesterday with a completely murdered out carbon bike (looked very expensive) wearing all black from shoes to leggings to top and helmet - during afternoon rush hour weaving in and out of the cars with only a single led rear light on. I’m not kidding his shadow was brighter than he was, it was astonishing.
I was dumbfounded to see a roadie yesterday with a completely murdered out carbon bike (looked very expensive) wearing all black from shoes to leggings to top and helmet – during afternoon rush hour weaving in and out of the cars with only a single led rear light on. I’m not kidding his shadow was brighter than he was, it was astonishing.
And yet you still saw him!
I was coming home in the car approaching roundabout, looked at little more than walking speed, thought it was clear, started to go and only then noticed a cyclist in all black. I don’t think I was driving in anything like a daft way, I still managed to stop at the give way line but I just didn’t see him on first look. Blended in with the dark trees/fence in the back ground. Made me think I’m always putting my lights on during the day and whilst I don’t own an all black outfit I won’t be buying one.
Bez
...because the real issue is almost always poor observation and excessive speed on the part of whoever’s going to pile into you.
/End thread for me.
I wear brighter colours. I use lights.
Twice I've been knocked off, both times wearing high viz and lights, once by the police van(!) who was waved out of junction by another user, once by someone who didn't slow for a junction.
I find the dark clothes/cars/bikes obsession in this country very odd. Why do we always get the dullest and darkest colours here when the maker offers brighter elsewhere? Why do pedestrians stand in the middle of unlit cycleways in the pitch black wearing ninja clothes? Not even a torch to see where they're going. Only reason I missed one guy was the jack russell he was walking.
The really shocking thing is how bad some drivers eyesight is, and I don't mean the absent-minded distracted daydreaming but can see fine variety. I've been in cars with drivers that can't see a parked vehicle on a well lit street until it's feet away and they have to swerve. Was just about to report him to DVLA when he moved back to his home country. Way more common that you might think.
Personally I try not to wear dark clothes riding at night, just seems sensible. But I think bright lights, including a particularly obnoxious pulsing rear one make more difference. Got to make sure you have a drivers attention, not just be visible.
Over 40 years of experience tells me that it doesn’t matter what colour you wear, many drivers suffer from wilful blindness with regard to anything that’s not a vehicle. However, in winter I do wear reflectives and run lights which are far more effective than wearing fluorescent colours.
The same idiotic thinking insist on school kids wearing the stuff when walking on pavements when the actual risk is from vehicles mounting the pavement.
By all means swaddle yourself in fluorescent nylon if it makes you feel better.
Pretty much sums it up for me. Decent lights, reflective gear and always being aware of what’s going on around you works for me. Had a few close calls, but never been knocked off. In each instance wearing bright clothing would’ve made precisely **** all difference.
If only this thread was BLACK, I might have overlooked it and not read any of this SOS (mind you I could probably accuse many threads of that so whatever don't let me ruin your FUN).
Pale green top. White helmet. Flashing front light. Still got me. Was obviously my fault he didn't have insurance either 🙄
Making yourself visible to traffic has nothing to do with colours, It's about contrast.
No point wearing bright colours against a bright daytime background.
'part from that, blacks faster.
No point wearing bright colours against a bright daytime background.
I agree re contrast being the actual goal, but where on earth are you riding that bright riding gear blends in to the background ?!?
Gore’s shakedry fabric is really difficult to add colour to.
Have you seen Rapha's latest Shakedry....
?0.5:$this.metadata.pointOfInterest.x},{($this.metadata.pointOfInterest.w==0)?0.5:$this.metadata.pointOfInterest.y},{($this.metadata.pointOfInterest.w==0)?0:$this.metadata.pointOfInterest.w},{($this.metadata.pointOfInterest.h==0)?0:$this.metadata.pointOfInterest.h}}&fmt.jpeg.interlaced=true&w=1500)
https://www.rapha.cc/gb/en/shop/mens-pro-team-lightweight-gore-tex-jacket/product/PPG02XXHVP
Proper high intensity flashing lights front and rear during daylight and reflective anklebands, helmet cover, proper lights during darkness and you're as covered as you'll ever be. Not sure colour of kit really makes that much difference - I reckon if they are going to hit you they will.
No because they generally can’t see you through their phone/the stereo /chatting to their mate what ever else it is they are doing except driving.
There are people who clearly aren't looking at the road at all. They will still hit you regardless.
There are people who are paying attention all the time and observing well. They will probably always see you.
But there are a lot of people in between, who are sort of paying attention and give cursory glances. Bright colours will make a difference for those.
So would you rather be seen by one of these groups or two of them?
A pattern that’s been speficically created to make me as invisible as possible? Black at night is pretty much camo.
It really isnt. If you want to blend it at night then you wear a mix of greys and greens. Black is really oddly visible. Plus colours become way less useful at night just look at a bright red or similar under poor light.
Reflective is what you want then not high vis although generally I prefer to rely on decent lights including helmet mounted.
Never understood this. Do you drive a car at night with all the lights off? Disconnect your brake lights? Why not, isn’t it the other road users responsibility not to hit you?
Do you leave your front door wide open when you are not at home? Isn’t it everyone else’s responsibility not to walk off with all your stuff?"
If you'd have selectively quoted my second paragraph you'd have known you were asking the wrong guy.
Great debate I have started. Thank you, exactly the opinions and comments I wanted.
My bibs are black, my helmet is black and my shoes are black, but at this time of year my top is either bright green or bright orange and my gilet is either HYPERpink or blue reflective. I also always ride with lights even in bright sunshine. In winter I have a helmet light, a bar light and a flashing light and the same at the back. When approaching junctions with stationary cars waiting to pull out or across me, I make sure to point the helmet light toward the car to get their attention.
I'll add my anecdote of a car pulling out in front of me on a roundabout at night. I could see he was going to do it so I stopped and yelled at him (window open) . He slammed on the brakes and looked at me & then did that thing vampires do when caught in the sunlight as the full force of an Exposure Diablo, Axis and helmet mounted Joystick seered into his eyeballs from 6 feet away.
Ultimately if you are going to be seen, they have to look. As others have said an awful lot of accidents are failure to look properly, not that the driver looked and the cyclist was 'invisible'. However, I think it is probably fair that at least some accidents have lack of conspicuity is a contibutory factor, but not as many as people make out.
But... in terms of being conspicuous, I reckon it is equally important that people consider not just colour but also shape. It is really important to have a solid block of whatever colour because it forms a recognisable person shape which is easier for the human brain to pick up. The other day I saw a bloke wearing a bright red jacket with a Hi-Viz gilet divided into orange & yellow. It actually acted as camouflage because it totally broke up his outline. He was nowhere near as 'visible' as he probably thought he was.
I also think that black is maligned. Agreed, if there is a dark background it may not show up as well, but in normal daylight it is a pretty conspicuous colour. People really need to open their eyes (literally) & look how things appear on the road, not how they appear to their preconceptions. I have done a lot of looking at cyclists and the colours they wear when I've been riding recently because of threads like this one, and black is visible from miles away, unless the background happenss to be really dark. There is a reason why RAF Hawk trainers are painted all black, and it is because it forms a dense, solid object that is easy to differentiate against the background. There is very little black in nature. Personally I think muted colours of grey & brown are far less conspicuous than black. Don't get me started on companies like Morvelo selling camouflage pattern jackets for road use.
But.... personally I do favour bright orange, unless it is autumn at which point I switch to red.
Plus colours become way less useful at night just look at a bright red or similar under poor light.
In my experience as a driver it's about what gets picked out in the edges of your lights. I do find actual bright colours to be more visible, surprisingly enough; and black to be really quite difficult to see.
Ultimately if you are going to be seen, they have to look. As others have said an awful lot of accidents are failure to look properly, not that the driver looked and the cyclist was ‘invisible’.
I don't think you are appreciating what I'm trying to say. Simply 'looking' in a cyclist's direction doesn't mean that the cyclist will be seen and registered in the driver's mind.
Agreed, if there is a dark background it may not show up as well, but in normal daylight it is a pretty conspicuous colour.
To be the most visible you need to wear colours that aren't in the surrounding environment. Even in daylight there is a lot of black around. And if it's bright and sunny, there's black all over the place in the shadows from trees and buildings. Obviously it's not black, but when your eyes are adjusted to full sun then a shadow might as well be a black hole. I once saw a dark grey car 'appear out of nowhere' on a bright day on a roundabout because there was a tree casting a shadow on the roundabout and when I first glanced I didn't see any cars at all, on my second glance it was right in front of me.
People really need to open their eyes (literally) & look how things appear on the road, not how they appear to their preconceptions. I have done a lot of looking at cyclists
Yes me too mate! I've been a road user for 30 years! It's not preconceptions, it's experience.
Heres a thought what about day time? Are people suggesting that cyclists don't get knocked off their bikes in the day and its only stealth cyclists at night getting into accidents? Like most I have the same kit for road and mountain biking (so lots of dark colours), so if you can't see my 3000 odd lumen front light and 80lm rear light I feel like even if I was in bright pink a driver still wouldn't see me. As the person driving something thats most likely to kill someone the jobs on them to make sure they don't hit me.
Heres an idea in order to absolve drivers from even more blame (like they don't get away with enough already) lets just make everyone wear a massive light on their head at all times, ban any dark clothes in winter, and make sure everyone has a megaphone that constantly shouts "I AM HERE!" /sarcasm.
I don’t think you are appreciating what I’m trying to say. Simply ‘looking’ in a cyclist’s direction doesn’t mean that the cyclist will be seen and registered in the driver’s mind.
Which is why it is important to present a solid outline which says 'person'. Don't break up your outline with different colours.
Yes me too mate! I’ve been a road user for 30 years! It’s not preconceptions, it’s experience.
Well, our brains must perceive things differently. When Covid is over I'll come down to Wales and we can go cyclist spotting together.
Jeez.
Those that don’t want to make any effort to protect themselves “because it’s the drivers fault / mobile phones / [insert other random whataboutery]” just crack on.
For me - as a cyclist and driver I know that cylists in bright colours in the day, reflective gear at night are more visible, from a greater distance to me so that is what I do to reduce my chances of being hit.
If other people choose to be less visible and so increase their chances of being in an accident then crack on.
Well, our brains must perceive things differently.
They probably do. Worth making a mental note of that...
Are people suggesting that cyclists don’t get knocked off their bikes in the day
Mate it's about probability. No-one's immune from being knocked off; likewise no-one's guaranteed to get knocked off. It's about making it more or less likely as I've tried to explain.
Those that don’t want to make any effort to protect themselves “because it’s the drivers fault / mobile phones / [insert other random whataboutery]” just crack on.
You know there are study's proving that hiviz doesn't make an odds and in certain urban cases is worse than black - but don't let that influence how you FEEL about it.
I'll stick to running flashing lights even during the day. They are intimately more.visible even in bright sun from much further away than ANYCLOTHES you could be wearing.
You know there are study’s proving that hiviz doesn’t make an odds
I’d love to see them, please share.
My experience in real life suggests otherwise. Yellow riders are visible a long way ahead, black riders much less so.
in certain urban cases is worse than black – but don’t let that influence how you FEEL about it.
I’m sure it can be worse in certain urban areas, but not don’t ride in those.
I’ll stick to running flashing lights even during the day. They are intimately more.visible even in bright sun from much further away than ANYCLOTHES you could be wearing.
I totally agree here - flashing lights even in daytime - bought a TraceR specifically because it has a daylight mode that is crazy bright (I think it’s dangerous at night as it gives a blinding / dazzling effect).
Seriously considering a ProViz all reflective gilet now....
I’ll stick to running flashing lights even during the day. They are intimately more.visible even in bright sun from much further away than
Just like cars and DRLs. I don't recall a lot of car drivers calling it victim blaming when those were required. And they still hit each other. And 'dont See' each other. And those are cars, with lights. Just do what you can to improve the odds, why not?
We know anecdotally how many people haven't apparently been seen despite wearing bright/hi vis etc. We don't know how many have been seen because they were.....
in certain urban cases is worse than black
Which cases? And how common are they?
I run flashing lights in the daytime and I wear bright colours. Cover all bases - because why not?
It's not like bright coloured clothing is difficult to get or looks bad. I'm talking red, yellow, orange, bright blue etc. I don't ride around with a Sam Brown belt on.
Also - and I know I keep bringing this up but I think it's a big and often ignored issue - flashing lights should be rapidly flashing, not slow once a second blinking on and off. That might help locating someone in a landscape from a distance, but it's crap on roads and really really crap at night in an urban situation.
Lmgtfy
First hit there are more. Google.
Mate it’s about probability. No-one’s immune from being knocked off; likewise no-one’s guaranteed to get knocked off. It’s about making it more or less likely as I’ve tried to explain
"Mate" there are multiple ways to be seen I choose to have extremely bright lights despite wearing all black. And as for probability unless you can run numbers on what people were wearing when they got knocked off their bike its a moo point. I have been countless cycling accidents day and night in my years of commuting through london clothes don't make a single bit of difference .
The Sunday Times reports that the study suggests riders who believe they are more conspicuous may adopt more exposed positions on the road.
The researchers did go on to point out that the results “should be treated with caution” however, as they were based on only 76 accidents.
The Telegraph points to a larger study in Denmark, involving nearly 7,000 cyclists, which found cyclists suffered 47 per cent fewer accidents causing injuries if a bright yellow jacket was worn.
Hmm. Not great evidence so far.
And as for probability unless you can run numbers on what people were wearing when they got knocked off their bike its a moo point.
No it's not. When you buy a jacket you can choose red or black, there's really no downside to choosing red. But it *might* save your life one day.
I have been countless cycling accidents day and night in my years of commuting through london clothes don’t make a single bit of difference .
Definitely nowhere near enough information there for you to make that assertion.
Arguably your evidence isn't great either.
Mines just the first Google hit I have not read it. There are many links on Google.
The only cyclists I've nearly hit as a driver are the ones dressed on black on black bikes with no lights riding at night, yes you pick them up right at the last minute and don't mow them down, but the margin for error is very slight.
The ones in Hi-viz you can spot from 1/2 mile away....
i always thought it was because team sky wore black. is black popular for road kit in other countries?
i also think that team sky using black kit was a way to popularize black kit with gringos making them less visible and more vulnerable on the road leading to more accidents in a bid to reduce the number of cyclists on the road. it is a conspiracy. it is the only explanation as you’d only wear black and ride on the road if you’d been brainwashed
I have a fair amount of black gear I wear on the road. All of it, however has reflective trim or decals. As a car driver, I find moving reflective trim more easy to notice in the dark.
As well as lights, obviously.
have been countless cycling accidents day and night in my years of commuting through london clothes don’t make a single bit of difference .
If the people involved in the accidents were wearing a mix of colours but all of the ones not involved in the accidents were wearing One or two colours, say yellow or orange, then you'd say there was probably an effect there.
Lmgtfy
First hit there are more. Google.
Quotes from article you linked to:
riders who believe they are more conspicuous may adopt more exposed positions on the road.
the results “should be treated with caution” however, as they were based on only 76 accidents.
a larger study in Denmark, involving nearly 7,000 cyclists, which found cyclists suffered 47 per cent fewer accidents causing injuries if a bright yellow jacket was worn.
However, they conclude with
Researchers found that “a fluorescent yellow jersey did not significantly improve the cyclist’s conspicuity relative to a black jersey. However, when the cyclist paired the fluorescent jersey with fluorescent yellow leggings, participants responded from a distance 3.3x farther than an identical outfit with black leggings.”
They concluded that “highlighting a cyclist’s biological motion can provide powerful conspicuity enhancements. Thus fluorescent leggings can offer a powerful and low-tech tool for enhancing bicyclists’ daytime conspicuity.”
At the same time, 2013 research from the University of Bath and Brunel University found that no matter what clothing a cyclist wears, around 1-2 per cent of drivers will pass dangerously close when overtaking.
It looks like leggings have it !
I do know that those ProViz full reflective jackets are a wonderous invention, So much easier to spot a cyclist 1/2 mile aay when their tiny LED is lost in the background clutter.
And I do think this is also a problem / reason / cause of collisions. Drivers are looking for brick sized headlights , as your brain is telling you bad things will happen if you ignore the big lights coming round the roundabout. And the 50p sized LED simply isnt big enpugh to be a danger . Ditto rear lights . Why no one makes a rear light the size of a car number plate you could velcro across your arse I have no idea. Its at most drivers head height. It gives you more 'width' than a 10p sizd LED. Easy to incorperate flashing sections without it switching off then on. Could even do a 'Knight Rider' effect and scroll left to right.
If the people involved in the accidents were wearing a mix of colours but all of the ones not involved in the accidents were wearing One or two colours, say yellow or orange, then you’d say there was probably an effect there.
IF is the key word there and until proven its nothing but an assumption / hypothesis. Personally I have been knocked off my bike 3 times and as you would guess sometimes I was in a bright yellow jacket and hi-viz rain cover on my backpack other times all black.
The brain basically takes a series of photos and stitches them together if you are in the stitch they wont see you, thats why drivers have to look twice, but everyones in a rush so that often doesn't happen.
And I do think this is also a problem / reason / cause of collisions. Drivers are looking for brick sized headlights , as your brain is telling you bad things will happen if you ignore the big lights coming round the roundabout...
I feel like the problem with this is your basically saying if cyclists had bigger lights they wouldn't get hit as "bad things would happen." People are talking as if cyclists don't get killed in the day which is absolute nonsense.
If the people involved in the accidents were wearing a mix of colours but all of the ones not involved in the accidents were wearing One or two colours, say yellow or orange, then you’d say there was probably an effect there
Could say alot of things. But doesn't make it so.
Fwiw the one and only time I've been hit I was wearing high Viz. Driver just wasn't looking. - I know that as she told me after I'd smashed his passengers window with my bike and the windscreen with my head.
always thought it was because team sky wore black. is black popular for road kit in other countries?
POC I think it was, said they'd never make a black helmet because of safety. A few years ago they started making black and dark grey helmets. It's just a fashion trend isn't it?
Next year's cycling gear.