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Why does it need reframing, whatever that’s meant to mean. If people want to find out about the sport and get into o then great. If they won’t find it without it being spoon fed to them then why does it matter if they do or don’t get into the sport
why does it matter if they do or don’t get into the sport
As above - there's money to be made.
More seriously too though - I've had some fantastic experiences around biking. It's not unreasonable to think that others might enjoy those experiences too, if they were given the opportunity, and there's nothing wrong with trying to spread a little joy.
Why aren't people mountainbiking ? Don't know and to be honest I'm not sure why I should care
I honestly don't know how anyone starts mountain biking. Any time I've been off the bike for a while and go out on my first ride back it's hard, uncomfortable, and the parts you enjoy only seem to last about three minutes
It was easy 37 years ago, when hardly anyone knew what a mountain bike was - they went to a bike shop, bought one that was in their budget, looked at a map for byways and bridleways, then went out and rode them - in the process, discovering large chunks of the local countryside that they didn’t know existed.
That’s what I did, and I got there via reading a few mountain bike magazines. My first bike was a Specialized Stumpjumper.
This whole thread honestly sounds like it’s come directly from the 1980’s!
After ten years of not riding, it’s certainly hard work, and uncomfortable at times, especially the day after, but I’m looking forward to getting out and re-exploring my local countryside, and getting a bike carrier for the car and going further afield.
I’m struggling to see what’s difficult about this…
Why does it need reframing, whatever that’s meant to mean. If people want to find out about the sport and get into o then great. If they won’t find it without it being spoon fed to them then why does it matter if they do or don’t get into the sport
Why are you bothered if other people care about social inclusion?
No skin off your nose, is it?
I honestly don't know how anyone starts mountain biking.
If you live in a MTB hot-spot - Hebden Bridge, Surrey Hills, Peebles, Edge of the Chilterns etc etc it's pretty common to go ride in the woods. Living in Heb I saw loads of kids all over the trails like a rash. I started during the big rush in the 90's with some friends as we were looking to do something that got us outside and kept us fit. I still see people doing that now. But there's barriers like every other sport, culturally, financially, ability, fitness access. Plus: define mountain biking...Back in the 90 for me that was a big circle in the woods/over the fells. Nowadays for people entering the sport? Not so much. Is it XC? DH? double crown? Gravel? Cycling's always been a minority pastime in the UK despite in the increase in it's popularity recently, MTB is a niche within a niche.
CZ, I think what you've posted there is 'cycling' rather than MTB and I'd agree it looks like a thoroughly pleasant day out.
But MTB likes to present itself more like this - and you can see why people might find it daunting and unapproachable. If I was 16 again I would think that this was super cool. But now as an arthritic middle aged man I just can't be arsed. My hand hurts just looking at it. And MrsDoris would never have been remotely interested in this kind of thing - although she would probably enjoy CZ's trip above.
But there is also a smaller group who definitely could ride, say people in my running club (definitely fit enough, quite happy being being cold wet and muddy, and for the most part could afford a very nice bike if they chose to) who don't because they fear getting injured (me showing up with a broken doesn't help, but that's rare, and they've all got dodgy knees) How do we get them into it?
The answer here is you don't, because they don't want to do it. I fall into the exact demographic you describe above- I love being outdoors and I also love beasting myself with V02 max intervals, hard runs and fast road rides and all the rest of it. But, I switched from mountain biking to road riding/Triathlon years ago and have never once really missed mountain biking.
For me, all the kit required and the cleaning and maintaining seemed nuts when I could just put a pair of trail shoes on and go for a run in the hills or do a road ride straight from my door. Especially in the winter when (to me) the extra layers and kit and cleaning/maintaining seems even more bonkers.
The above isn't an objective criticism of mountain biking- I'm aware its just a personality thing. But, not everyone is interested in the kit and endless technical iterations of a thousand components that all seem to have different standards.
I think a lot of people who like mountain biking enjoy it because of that, which is cool, but there's always going to be a significant demographic who are turned off by it. I just have zero interest in learning how to bleed brakes or service a dropper post when I could have smashed out 40 road miles and gone to the cafe or pub afterwards in the same amount of time.
In summary: Mountain biking is really only for people who like fixing and maintaining things and obsessing over technical details, prove me wrong.
If you want more "mountain bikers", then a better place to focus would be on where can they come from. Build BMX tracks, pump tracks, skate parks, it's not a coincidence that the MTB boom in the 90's followed the BMX boom of the 80's. Even just growing cycling in general would be a good thing. Someone who rides to work every day in Manchester is far more likely to think "I wonder if I could ride in the Peak District" and then jump on a train to Edale than someone who doesn't normally ride at all.
This.
But also make them free to kids.
The one nearer us is £5 per hour per person. Plus bike hire, plus helmet hire.
It's mostly empty, or sometimes has families rolling round.
The one near my mum's is free, is rammed with kids playing out learning to manual and jump from each other.
I honestly don't know how anyone starts mountain biking. Any time I've been off the bike for a while and go out on my first ride back it's hard, uncomfortable, and the parts you enjoy only seem to last about three minutes
😂
I've realized this year (the last of my 30's 😬 ) just how quickly I could build fitness in my teens / 20's. Riding to work for a few weeks was enough to have me averaging 20mph and I'd lose fat so quick I had to eat bowls of pasta after a main meal to compensate! I made a concerted effort last winter to get off my ass, get fit and lose weight, 6 months and ~3000miles later I can just about average 16mph and have lost no weight 😂.
So by that analysis, half the problem is going to be retaining people. They either need to keep up that fitness or get e-bikes.
In summary: Mountain biking is really only for people who like fixing and maintaining things and obsessing over technical details, prove me wrong.
Or people that realise it's massively more fun than either running or riding a road bike.
Methinks you were doing it wrong
In summary: Mountain biking is really only for people who like fixing and maintaining things and obsessing over technical details, prove me wrong.
Ish, but that's the manufacturers fault for making rubbish and our fault for accepting it. If a kids scooter had poor brakes trading standards would be all over it, there'd be recalls, etc. Yet Shimano calipers leak, SRAM levers seize, Magura levers crack, and we just shrug and collectively accept it for some reason.
OTOH 90% of MTBing in the UK is rigid gravel bike suitable, or even a singlespeed. The level of maintenance is only as high as you make it.
more fun than ......... riding a road bike.
Methinks you were doing it wrong
Methinks you're doing it wrong 😉
This.
But also make them free to kids.
The one nearer us is £5 per hour per person. Plus bike hire, plus helmet hire.
Whut!!!! That's madness.
I get that places like the Summit at Swinley have to charge for explicable reasons, but the clubhouse area in the forest is free.
It's an odd one, large trail centers cost £millions, and we just expect those 100km of trails to be free for no particularly good reason other than some flimsy arguments. But BMX tracks should be as common a swimming pools. Part of the problem is they've traditionally been made from compacted aggregate which is fine for a regional/national track that you want to remodel every year but doesn't suit the build it and leave it approach that councils have. The erosion is then inevitable and they get abandoned. At least if it's a durable surface then it doesn't really matter if Surrons get in.
I don't like maintenance but road biking is so boring and trail runners smell bad. Convince me otherwise.
Out riding with group last night, kids in the woods building jumps as usual, click baity post.
Methinks you were doing it wrong
Well it's horses for courses, which is my entire point above.
But, I don't see many posts hand-wringing about why more people aren't running or road riding whereas I see tonnes on here asking why more people aren't mountain biking on what seems like a fortnightly basis. This OP in fact being one of them. So, it seems lots of people consider the alternatives as "doing it right".
mountain biking is a spectrum - or perhaps even more its on one of those 2 axis plots where one axis is "gnar/skill" and the other "aerobic effort".
everyone commenting above is equally valid in enjoying their passtime doing "mountain biking" even if one corner of that graph might be more suited to a bike that these days is labeled "gravel", and people can certainly enjoy doing multiple different aspects of it and also have aspects of it that they are not interested in at all.
but to focus on the bit you like and then either say "nobody is doing it anymore" or "its a totally healthy popular scene" is going to be wrong when considering the broader reach of the statement.
I don't see many posts hand-wringing about why more people aren't running or road riding
Think about that for a second mate.
You might not do it anymore, but this is still primarily a mountain biking website.
I expect people may ask similar questions on road cycling or running websites/forums... when they're tired of discussing their watts or their heart rate.
Within these analyses or whatever, there's pretty much always a barely suppressed inference that the problem is gatekeeping by middle aged white men.
People like different things. I struggle to understand why folk get so het up about this.
My wife and daughters have every possible opportunity to mountain bike. Do they ever join me amongst muddy roots? Nope. Not for them. An occasional fire road jaunt in the sun is fine with them, but cold and wet isn't.
I join in a six week block of pilates or yoga every so often, going back about 15 years now. I've been, without fail, the only man every time.
I'm warmly welcomed each time, nobody is excluding guys from joining in. Most men just aren't interested.
Finance is of course an issue for some, that's true.
Finance and cost is definitely a thing. I prayed that my kids wouldn't get into competitive cycling to be sadly honest, and I'm not poor.
I think most people know what mountain biking looks like., though they'll likely be thinking of downhill. Butif you were a newcomer, and went to a bike park, rented a bike - how much does that cost?
Why does it need reframing, whatever that’s meant to mean. If people want to find out about the sport and get into o then great. If they won’t find it without it being spoon fed to them then why does it matter if they do or don’t get into the sport
Why are you bothered if other people care about social inclusion?
No skin off your nose, is it?
Again another meaningless phrase. What is social inclusion? Trying to persuade others to play our game rather than the game they do play? Why is that important? Are there social inclusion programmes to encourage us to get to other groups games. Its all just meaningless hyperbole.
Again another meaningless phrase. What is social inclusion?
Just use Google if you really don't know what it means.
Or just carry on being angry about people trying to understand what might block some people from getting into the activity we enjoy.
That seems like a good use of time.
In summary: Mountain biking is really only for people who like fixing and maintaining things and obsessing over technical details, prove me wrong.
Nope, I hate fixing and maintaining bikes! Rather they just work and I can spend what free time I have riding instead of fixing. Luckily bikes are pretty good now and seem to break less than my older ones.
I ride road too but that's just because it's the only regular exercise I can stand to do, and local MTB riding is pretty limited whereas there's lots of nice country lanes to link up for a road loop. It's boring compared to MTB though, but yeah it is also nice not having to clean up a muddy bike too!
Again another meaningless phrase. What is social inclusion?
Just use Google if you really don't know what it means.
Or just carry on being angry about people trying to understand what might block some people from getting into the activity we enjoy.
That seems like a good use of time.
Im not angry about it. I just dont understand why its needed, or why the magazine is writing about it. If thats how some people want to spend their spare time then I hope they enjoy it.
This seems very similar to the post on here a few years ago about barriers stopping people of colour and other ethnic groups from taking up MTB, if I remember correctly that ended up with a lot of middle-aged white men explaining to everyone that it was mainly just cost and no other significant barriers, despite being told that it wasn’t by POC in here and other places.
Lots of valid reasons have been said on here today, but I fear this will just degenerate into similar.
Why is that important?
Because even if you only look at the totally selfish reasons, making the sport (geographically) more accessible , cheaper, etc actually benefit everyone.
And in slightly more external reasons but still impacting 'us'. More people on bikes means less "cyclists don't pay road tax" in the Sun comments section and opposition to infrastructure. Because 60% of UK adults do no sport or exercise at least once a week which costs the NHS money. Because more people on the trails hopefully means better access.
Why is that important?
Because even if you only look at the totally selfish reasons, making the sport (geographically) more accessible , cheaper, etc actually benefit everyone.
And in slightly more external reasons but still impacting 'us'. More people on bikes means less "cyclists don't pay road tax" in the Sun comments section and opposition to infrastructure. Because 60% of UK adults do no sport or exercise at least once a week which costs the NHS money. Because more people on the trails hopefully means better access.
If you include riding around a local park on a gravel path mountain biking then I guess that might happen. Personally I dont and I dont see how you can move the landscape that my version of mountain biking needs ie topography to make it more accessible.
As for the wider benefits for society and the NHS then just getting people to go for a walk will give alot more benefit for the cost
If you include riding around a local park on a gravel path mountain biking then I guess that might happen. Personally I dont and I dont see how you can move the landscape that my version of mountain biking needs ie topography to make it more accessible.
Well that's not what I said, but you carry on riding round that straw man all day if it makes you happy.
I said build more BMX tracks because it's a gateway for kids into the sport by minimizing the cost of the bike, maintenance requirements and need for transport.
Some people discover MTB by accident, I was lucky enough to live in the middle of the countryside and was riding bikes offroad before I knew offroad bikes were a thing. Some people get into it because their mates are into it. But growing the sport outside of those existing users needs more accessible routes.
Take Chris Hoy, the most winningest track cyclist ever (maybe). Track cycling is expensive, niche, and even more geographically inaccessible for most people. He was talent spotted racing BMX. Tom Pidcock, basically a roadie. Tracey Mosley, started riding XC in Wocester. I believe that if we want more people to get into MTB then the solution is to build a rising tide of all cycling disciplines and let that lift the MTB boat.
Within these analyses or whatever, there's pretty much always a barely suppressed inference that the problem is gatekeeping by middle aged white men.
If you want to attract funding as a result of your analysis/report then you need to be ticking the social inclusion box. I don't think that anyone on here could be accused of gatekeeping though. Very much the opposite.
. I don't think that anyone on here could be accused of gatekeeping though. Very much the opposite.
Agreed, that's why I find the inference irksome.
OK I don't like ebikes, it's a personal opinion. That doesn't stop you having an ebike. I don't like ebikes due to being ridden into on a climb at a trail centre by an ebiker and now am unwilling to use trail centres as a result.
I did help one of my friends who has disabilities by a etrike so she can continue to cycle.
Please explain how this is gate keeping.
OK I don't like ebikes, it's a personal opinion. That doesn't stop you having an ebike. I don't like ebikes due to being ridden into on a climb at a trail centre by an ebiker and now am unwilling to use trail centres as a result.
I did help one of my friends who has disabilities by a etrike so she can continue to cycle.
Please explain how this is gate keeping.
The constant negative statements like "They are lazy", "They are fat", "They are not real mountain bikers" are an attempt to drive people away. Hence gatekeeping.
CZ, I think what you've posted there is 'cycling' rather than MTB and I'd agree it looks like a thoroughly pleasant day out.
But MTB likes to present itself more like this - and you can see why people might find it daunting and unapproachable. If I was 16 again I would think that this was super cool. But now as an arthritic middle aged man I just can't be arsed. My hand hurts just looking at it. And MrsDoris would never have been remotely interested in this kind of thing - although she would probably enjoy CZ's trip above.
I started in my 30’s! Hardly a picture of athletic youth! I’m an arthritic man who’s just turned 71. So there ya go.
The constant negative statements like "They are lazy", "They are fat", "They are not real mountain bikers" are an attempt to drive people away. Hence gatekeeping.
And having bikes that climb much faster by the use of electricity, on the same trails puts other people off. Having constant smart remarks as people on ebikes cruise past on hills doesn't put people off.
Thats also gatekeeping
> Trying to persuade others to play our game rather than the game they do play?
Do you think "our game" is in finite supply? More people on bikes and mountain bikes is always good, no?
The only people it seems to put off is grumpy people who already own and ride MTBs. I’ve been overtaken, tyre buzzed and cut up by more Strava chasing XC dicks than ebikers.
Meh, Within a wider social context MTBing is a “fad” that’s not to say it isn’t a good thing to get into or indeed that it doesn’t stick with some of us of course, but it’s not the centre of most people’s universe.
The problems it faces currently are a due to the Images that get projected in promotional stuff, people doing rad gnally stuff, that’s probably only 10% of what MTB is as a whole and really only a committed few engage in that regularly. Similarly the cost aspects, you can get a perfectly adequate MTB for a few hundred quid, same as any other flavour of bike, but that’s not what is promoted, instead when punters read round up articles that label £2k bikes as “affordable” and see headline RRPs north of £10k for an E-bike…
Basically a huge chunk of the media output around MTBing is going to put of those who are casually interested or don’t have a couple of grand and every other weekend to invest in the “sport”. Add to that various class/race/gender imbalances (cycling in general is “Stale, Male and Pale’)…
And the existing fans of MTBing can’t understand why they’re not overrun with new riding buddies?
My own take is that people have to already be a bit into riding bikes already to want to understand the various sub-niches of MTB and get into it, the rout for “newbies” into MTBing is increasingly going to be via road, CX and/or Gravel cycling and those entrants are not going to be immediately comfortable with rock strewn descents and jumping over gaps.
I see the word “progression” used a lot on various forums and in MTB related Meeja content and while I’ve perhaps rolled my eyes at another bullshit buzzword entering the MTB lexicon, it’s probably an apt description of what the few people who now take up MTBing are looking for. Structure and measurement for how they’re developing at what, to them, is an established “sport”…
That’s the route by which it grows now unfortunately, much less hacking about in the woods with mates…
The constant negative statements like "They are lazy", "They are fat", "They are not real mountain bikers" are an attempt to drive people away. Hence gatekeeping.
It would be “gatekeeping” except these are people already participating who clearly haven’t got a problem with any financial hurdles, they’ve already gotten past any gatekeepers. And yep they are being a bit lazy, that’s OK life doesn’t have to be a constant game of maximum effort, hence e-bikes exist. But if they’re riding about with a chip on their shoulder, sat atop of a very obvious symbol of the financial and technological arms race within the MTB market someone is going to notice and maybe try to bruise their fragile ego with mean words.
It’s like sitting amongst the home fans at a Chelsea game, wearing an Arsenal shirt and getting all uppety when someone says something, you are going to get comments, either learn to deal with it, or find some other activity where participants are completely devoid of all opinions…
When I started mtb'ing in the late 80's you could buy a reasonable bike for £500 which would go anywhere, and we did ride them everywhere, and learn't how to fix and maintain them at relatively low cost- we didn't need x number of high value accessories just to ride our bikes either. What's happened now in all forms of cycling is that 'performance' level good kit has become ridiculously expensive with needless levels of tech and 'must have' USP's of every brand pushing the cost beyond what is attainable for a lot of the population. Cycling has become more elitist, and cynically skewed towards a wealthier ageing demographic, selling fewer units at higher pricepoints -see it in road, see it in mtb, seen it working in the trade. It is not a good look and will bite further down the line. Grassroots is really important for any sport, in our over-commodified world its easy to forget that. Its worth remembering that riding really simple mtb's (atb's) is really good too...
It would be “gatekeeping” except these are people already participating
I think you missed Xora's point, which AIUI is that disabled folk who might be interested in trying out ebiking see the stick that the existing ebikers get and decide (rightly or wrongly) that it's not worth the grief.
It's not that they're doing it and finding it annoying, its that they're put off from trying in the first place.
We are preaching to the converted here.
Here's what I have seen. Youngsters are keen but obviously can't afford decent bikes. Most parents won't pay much more than 200 quid for something that might get nicked (kids get more grief than adults) or left in the garden to rust away. I need this 2 grand bike dad, son you better rethink this hobby of yours! Younger generations ability to travel is to some degree dictated by their parents who may or may not be keen to help!
Even within my generation there is a divide of people who just view it as a childish endeavour/waste of time "you going out to play on your BMX" is one the retorts I have had. If you aren't engaged in more profit, BTL, better house, better car, better holidays most people around my age don't see any value in it.