Had a look in MBUK at some test in there and the winners are not cheap.
Small volume high precision manufacture. Fair sized profit margins I bet but thats the main reason.
TJ, profit margins on forks aren't huge. A lot of work goes in to those little bouncy bits, as you say it's the small volume and high precision manufacture involved.
Sub 'suspension forks' with any part from the bike industry. It's all the same!
and why do they have such short life spans?
and why do they have such short life spans?
Because they get ridden in shite all there life and they have to be reasonably light weight. Maybe.?
The average price has risen massively over the past 10-ish years though.
I suppose the largest market for high-spec forks now is new builds, where people are more likely to swallow the larger costs, rather than upgrading your factory-spec bike which is what people used to do.
Short life apans only applies to some designs.
You should try racing motorcycle stuff - tens of thousands of pounds for a fork
Light cheap strong - pick any two - and a fork must be strong because of the leverage on it
IMHO - and only guesstimating - far too many models in each brands range and constant evolution means development and tooling costs have to be made back fast. On top of paying manufacture cost (man hours and materials), distribution, shop margin.
Baffled me why Spesh insisted on making their own forks and shocks. Up to that point Fox had seemed happy to make bespoke kit for them (Brain shock). Making your own means investment in the expertise, design, production kit, testing. And from what I have seen they have yet to make a product that matches the best of Fox and Rockshox.
RS1s were £350 IIRC in 1991/2.
Prices seem high but recent hikes relate to materials, recession etc?
Worst was Judy SLs in late 90s, £600 for an elastomer fork with a leaking plastic cartridge...painted yellow! Paul Turner knew how to make $ OK!
The average price has risen massively over the past 10-ish years though.
It's not as if new forks are any plusher, lighter, stiffer, longer travel, more adjustable, better damped than they were back then, is it...?
and why do they have such short life spans?
Made light.
It's not as if new forks are any plusher, lighter, stiffer, longer travel, more adjustable, better damped than they were back then, is it...?
Slightly, but I still can bearly identify a difference in damping capabilities from a new fox to my old bombers, and my old bombers are still going 11 years on with 2 or 3 oil changes and one set of seals. Sure they're a smidge heavier, but the price seems to rise exponentially with weight loss and the damping performance does not seem to alter much. In fact having tried a few of the more recent marzocchi air-sprung and coil sprung offerings, I'd say neither felt as nice as my old Z1s so I'm befuddled. The old Z1s had adjustable rebound and speed sensitive compression valving, and were buttery smooth with no perceptible stiction, and are user-servicable with £8s worth of seals.
Baffled me why Spesh insisted on making their own forks and shocks. Up to that point Fox had seemed happy to make bespoke kit for them (Brain shock). Making your own means investment in the expertise, design, production kit, testing. And from what I have seen they have yet to make a product that matches the best of Fox and Rockshox.
It's all made out east you know...
bikemonkey - MemberThe average price has risen massively over the past 10-ish years though.
In 1992/93 when the first rock shox became commercially available. They cost Ir£320 here. Which at an approximate average inflation rate of 3% per annum would make them cost €700 in today's money. When you think about it in those terms they're really not that expensive considering how much the technology & design have advanced since then.
Not a lot of people pay full whack though.
RRPs have shot up a bit in '09 and '10, but there are still plenty of places to pick them up cheap.
And they do work really well now (even if you're supposed to service them every five mins).
RRPs have shot up a bit in '09 and '10, but there are still plenty of places to pick them up cheap.
Agreed. The prices definitely drop like a stone as next year's models are released.
I paid £300 for my 2009 Reba Teams and the RRP was about £590 IIRC 😯 and they had been that price for a while before every retailer dropped the price as the 2010 models loomed on the horizon.
I'd be gutted if I'd paid full whack for them!
I always wait for the previous years forks most of them are usually half the price or better or shop at merlin for a nice OEM bargain.
and why do they have such short life spans?
I'm planning giving my second hand Marzocchi Z3 130mm QR20 forks (2002 model) their first service.
TJ, profit margins on forks aren't huge. A lot of work goes in to those little bouncy bits, as you say it's the small volume and high precision manufacture involved.
Profit margins on retail prices must be astronomical judging by what they go by to manufacturers. I bet most of these "70% off" spring discounts are still making profit.
Older marzocchis use old motorcycle tech, Open bath internals means much better ;lubrication of the bushes, motorcycle type seals mean much better sealing. disadvantages are weight from the amount of oil - especially as its unsprung weight and greater stiction.
Its still my fork of choice tho.
In 1992/93 when the first rock shox became commercially available. They cost Ir£320 here. Which at an approximate average inflation rate of 3% per annum would make them cost €700 in today's money. When you think about it in those terms they're really not that expensive considering how much the technology & design have advanced since then.
Well most technological stuff seems to have become cheaper by then. Also the manufacturing processes have advanced, and volumes are huge comparing to those days.
Demand remains high, we keep buying them even at the ridiculous prices. £800+ for a Lyrik or 36 is mental!
Market segmentation?
There must a demand for simpler forks that are tuned for the rider when they are purchased? That would of course mean more suspension specialists at the place the fork is bought from but they are just some tubes, shims / holes and oil at the end of the day. It seems daft paying top dollar for suspension when no end of adjustments, which once fettled never need adjusting again.
As it happens, I picked up a mint pair of 2003 Shivers for 200 bucks and they are as plush as any 1700 buck I've bounced up and down on.
TandemJeremy - Member
Short life apans only applies to some designs.
You should try racing motorcycle stuff - tens of thousands of pounds for a fork
Light cheap strong - pick any two - and a fork must be strong because of the leverage on it
It seems to me that suspension forks are designed to not last.
I'm amazed that fork gaiters only seem to be used on cheap tack. Properly designed gaiters with a breather and a filter would prevent muck getting in - this was mastered in the '60s by BMW on the R60/75 series bikes. I did huge mileages offroad (was way out in the bush) and I only stripped my forks once a year, yet they were pretty clean inside. Meanwhile mates on Japanese bikes would have totally worn out their seals and bushings because those came with bare stanchions.
I bet R&D costs them f all. It's not like Rock Shox suddenly went from making wooden garden furniture to suspension forks.
Just worked this out...
Boxxer Solo Air ----- £481/kg
Manitou Dorados ----- £433/kg
Lyric 2 Step Air ---- £374/kg
Silver @ 09/02/10 --- £317/kg
😯
i looked at some 36s last week.
they are a serious amount of money, but they are a serious set of forks too.
I'm unsure the low volume thing holds water.
Fox and RS must sell tens of thousands of units per year these days, I thought things came down in price as they made more of them?
I think forks lack gaitors because theres no room for them. The lower sliders are longer than they used to be to improve stiffness, which means at full compression theres no space between the sliders and the crown, leaving very little exposed stanchion.
PLus, the most durable forks i've had were old marzocchi Z2's and they didn't have gaitors so i'm not sure its the cause.
The average [b]£500[/b] [s]price[/s] [b]bike[/b] has [s]risen[/s] [b]improved[/b] massively over the past 10-ish years though.
FTFY
forget forks, look at the price of bottom brackets, chainrings and other wear+tear items. It's stupid, buying a new set of chainrings and a BB costs more than buying a complete new chainset.
profit margins on forks aren't huge
nonsense imo, but as an afterthought are you referring to the manufacturer or shop margin?
for example - rrp on 2010 36 Talas £929, yet i paid £599
and
merlin can sell 1.5" Lyrik Coils for £399, rrp is quoted as £865 - but the 1 1/8" model is £720 !!
and
one reba fork i was interested in buying last year from CRC increased in price by 27% overnight -WTF
maybe it is a combination of - margins / exchange rates / raw material costs / increased cost of living reducing sales? but the major companies must be noticing the reduced sale of non-oem kit
Agree with chunkypaul - Magura Thors nearly £700 rrp but On-One knocking them out for £400 and others at less than £500. Maybe they never get sold at RRP, but the price range means someone is making good retail profit on them.
They charge what people are prepared to pay. The average fork (Fox/Rockshox etc) will cost about £60 to make. The "fine tolerances" only apply to a few small parts - most of the parts in a fork will be standard manufacturing tolerance. However, then you have the manufacturer profit margin, shipping, import duty, plus then the importers profit margin, overheads, exchange rates, distribution costs, and then the retailers profit margin, overheads, and all of a sudden a part that costs £60 to make could cost £300 to get to the retailer.
Also, bear in mind that, at the following model year, no one sells the part at a loss, but they will all take a reduction in profit so that the shelves are cleared for the new model to sell (at a premium).
Most parts of a fork will not change substantially from year to year - just valving or paint finish or whatever to give it a refresh, and then every 3 years or so a major refresh or new fork. So, across the world, the average Fox fork probably sells 300,000 units over 3 years, so there is substantial revenue from them. The more high end forks (does the rebound damping bit really cost another £100?) they sell, the greater the profit.
Specialised probably went their own way to cut the cost of buying from Fox, as they could make the part for £60, but it might cost £100 to buy from Fox, and they can get custom parts made to their spec. Trouble is the quality issues can wipe out any cost save, and it doesn't seem to take much to make a fork not last long. When they get it right though, it could be a good business model.
But new forks are blimmin expensive though. I only buy 2nd hand now!
Priced to the market I suspect rather than the cost to manufacture. Most things are priced to what the market will stand, look at starbucks or VW
People claiming that there is a lot of mark-up on Forks, you are wrong.
Most IBD's will buy forks with a 35% margin, if sold at full RRP.
However, they cannot sell them due to online retailers who get them out of the back door of factories and other route of supply, rather than the usual distribution route.
So do bike shops SELL forks at RRP, the answer is no, which is why you wont see many in stock at most bike shops. We cannot compete with Merlin, so don't try.
Why are forks so expensive??? Very small turnover of stock, and quickly chnaged model years. The bike trade is small, and requires yearly updates of products.
Bt have they actually got expensive, 1996 Judy SL, bolted on brace, plastic damper, elastomer springs, no disc mounts. £600!!! SID fork is about that for a much better fork
Well done large 418 .
Everything costs what people will pay .
What we should do is have a revolution .
I'll start by riding my Muddyfox courier everywhere . That'll teach em .
Do you really think a house is worth 4 times more in London than it is in the North east ?
Well , OK , I wouldnt live there either , but you get the point .
I rode a set of BOS forks (n'Dee) in the US a few months ago. I liked them and looked at getting a set.
The retail in the UK was around £1250. 😯 Fox 36's seem a bargain in comparison.
[i]Everything costs what people will pay [/i]
Exactly !
Always get the occasional "why does XYZ cost so much" thread with the same moans'n'groans, but it doesn't stop people clicking the 'add to basket' button.......
It surely must do though? No one actualy buys £800+ forks do they?
Even DHers who are utter gear tarts are riding round on dhx-5's because even though they know a boss, CCDB, avalanche etc is better, even they realise that a £275 shock is as good as they need.
I recon TFtuned etc could clean up if they ran an advertising campaign selling OEM level stuff, but tuned to rider weight, maybe with 1 free service to fine tune them. £300 for a set of RS recons perfectly set up for you, or £300 for some reba's you'll eventualy find an ok setting with and leave it at that?
And I recom we need more companies like push. My magura forks are great, but the damping can be a bit pish sometimes.
The forks that seem to have jumped in price the most are long (130-160mm) travel jobbies with adjustable travel and thru-axles, particularly the new 15mm. So I guess it's partly the cost of re-tooling, R&D etc for these new lightweight uppy downy bolt-through designs, and partly the fact that many fairly average riders (myself included) are convinced that they need them.
Everything costs what people will payExactly !
Always get the occasional "why does XYZ cost so much" thread with the same moans'n'groans, but it doesn't stop people clicking the 'add to basket' button.......
but do they?
i don't, i'd love some new coil lyriks, but i am not going to pay over £700 for what i consider a basic coil fork that 18months ago i could of bought for around £400 <kicks myself>
i dont think they are super expensive...
for the level of attention to detail etc.
MX forks cost a fortune, and the servicing/revavling costs are out of this world.
Been thinking about some new long travel forks for a while. I just can't justify spending the kind of money they go for.
They are way over priced, especially above 140mm travel.
Fair enough paying for latest super air sprung damping tunable travel adjust must have, but even the simple coil models with just pre-load and rebound are too expensive if you ask me.
I'm guessing they are priced at what they think people will pay. Simple as.
It’s like anything on MTBs, at the top end of the market it’s a numbers and letters games, how much travel, how fat the stanchions can get, how low the weight figure is and how many made up acronyms can the marketing Dept’ splash all over the spec sheet…
Mid price point and down it’s just “trickle down” Look further down the ranges and you’ll see the forks of yesteryear with the odd change to spec’s and name but effectively the same chassis with similar internals, how far honestly is the current “Tora” from the “Psylo” you could buy 6 years ago? The “dart” is more or less an old “Judy” sure they’ve had to re-tool the crown and lowers thus subtly changing the look of the forks and fiddle about a tad with travel but they aren’t a million miles apart from the forks you would have thrown hundreds of pounds at less than a decade ago…
There haven’t been that many leaps forward in fork Technology, over the last 20 years merely scaling up of the chassis to accommodate more travel and extreme use in the field…
Maybe more reliable air springs in the last 5 or so years, possibly manufacturers have a better idea of what the damping is actually doing…
At the end of the day they are basically still just some type of spring, a bit of oil, a pumping rod and some form of valve in a tube (x 2)…
As for the idea that they don’t last, well that’s just cobblers, they may get sold on, a few may get snapped but the vast majority will be floating about in the classifieds/eBay for some time to come and those of us that bother to service forks ourselves can get most things to keep running for years, for those over burdened with money there’s the shiny new version of any given fork, not significantly different from the previous revision, but the man in the shop; he said it’s Waaaay better…
I bet downgrading a particular fork to remove adjustable this & that actually costs them more. Your having to stock more components, validate more versions of the finished product etc, along with all the other costs in putting the product on the market. Offering just a single variant would reduce component costs, logistics etc.
the minor changes in spec they use to differentiate and structure a product range are a joke too. Changing from a steel to an aluminium steerer adds £100 to the RRP of a fork with negligible manufacturing or material cost difference.
The fork manufacturers want it both ways but the free market wont let them. They want to dominate the OE sector buy offering bike manufacturers bulk discount whilst selling similar products at massive mark-ups to the retail customer. Then they get upset when the bike manufacturers dump their excess stock on the mail order market when another brand becomes the must-have. Years ago in the US I bought new forks from mailorder giant supergo for less than Manitou would sell me some new lowers direct when mine cracked.
I'm a fan of basic, durable marzocchis. A pair of 1999 Z3's of mine are still in regular use with just oil changes (original seals and bushes) and I've just got some 55R's (with all the unreliable adjustable gubbins removed to produce a bottom of the range but reliable fork) which I'm hoping will last as long.