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[i]When was the last time you went out ? £50 might cover the drinks, just. Not the other stuff. [/i]
Last time? Met a few mates in Wetherspoons, spent more on the taxi than food/drink 🙂
Didn't want to willy-wave and point out I'd spent 10x that before.
Fair play munro biker, you should get into the game and you would make a killing.
How much did the insurance cost?
What kind of race? Was there 5 stages and timing on each stage?
I'm not suggesting you are making it up but not sure you could put on an Enduro race for £10
If you can find the organisers taking the piss then please point them out.
I did put on the feedback for the latest round (Ae) that it's difficult to see where the £50 goes. It was £45 last year and there was better feed stations etc. Although it did move to sportident so presumably they take some money.
Comparing it to Vallelujah earlier in the year you got a free t-shirt and a bakery at the top. At Ae there were around ten gels left on a table that disappeared in about 5 minutes and it was more expensive. It's not going to stop me entering them but how much does it cost to have a table with some bananas and cake on it? At least it'd look like you were getting a bit more for your money.
[i]Also, all these enduro events have been really good for getting new trails, which is a great legacy. The amount of trails in the Tweed valley for instance has grown at an incredible rate since EWS was first there. [/i]
The majority of trails were already there, you just didn't know about them.
It's always good when [url= http://theteamrobot.blogspot.hk/2015/02/race-entries.html ]Team Robot[/url] has said something vaguely obnoxious about these matters:
You know what addicts do when the price of meth goes up? They hustle. They makes moves. And they keep buying meth. No one wants to know how or where they got that money, but they found it somewhere. ...If you want to race, you just find the money somehow. Maybe you sell a kidney or kill someone for money or work on "Deadliest Catch" or whatever. Maybe you ask the meth people where they get their money. Maybe you start stealing outdoor AC units or start a chop shop in the garage. Maybe you start a "massage" booth in your van at the next race. You hustle.
mike- no, I don't think you could put on an Enduro race for £10. The format definitely needs timing chips. This was 2 endurance races held back to back on one day. Based on my experience of organising an event I think somewhere in the region of £30-40 would get you a good Enduro and turn a profit.
Never doing it again mind!
Profit meaning taking more than you spend or covering the 3-4 days you will spend working at the event, marking the course, cleaning up after everyone and the rest. Profit is looked on as if it's a dirty word here, events need to at least cover costs and there needs to be something for the organiser at the end.
£50? Why is it so much? Sportives are 15-20ish. 50 is ridiculous.
Profit as in taking home more than you spent (unless you did what we did and donate it to charity).
[quote=hora ]£50? Why is it so much? Sportives are 15-20ish. 50 is ridiculous.
Fred Whitton is £50
Ride London is £50
mike- no, I don't think you could put on an Enduro race for £10. The format definitely needs timing chips. This was 2 endurance races held back to back on one day. Based on my experience of organising an event I think somewhere in the region of £30-40 would get you a good Enduro and turn a profit.
I mentioned it on the sportive thread, but I'm off to do a sailing race this weekend, £20, 6 races, safety boats, etc etc for £20. And theres a curry on Saturday night.
Yes it relies on voulenteers, but it does turn a proffit for the hosting club. All it relies on technologicaly is a stopwatch and good organistation.
So the question to people moaning about the cost is, why haven't you voulenteered to help run an event and bring the cost down. Phone round a few local clubs, get each to put on an event with their own voulenteer manpower, and you've got a series.
But giving all your time for free Munro? I applaud all the people who give their time for nothing and it's the main reason the events only cost £50. There would be no profit if the event organisers even got minimum wage for their efforts.
What are the average entry numbers for these events?
Spend £1000's on bike/biking gear.
Complain about £50........confused.
I don't spend £50 a ride to ride my local trail on the 'thousands' bike.
Hora
.??
What are the average entry numbers for these events?
You're never going to enter one, so stop bloody moaning about it!.
TINAS- I know we balk at the Birkett Trophy in the Lake District because it's about £25-30 quid! Sailing does depend on volunteers- but the volunteers are expected to volunteer as part of their membership to a club (we have to do race duties twice a year or we can't sail in the races, which seems fair). But considering they are paying for a club house, rent on a lake, a couple of ribs at a few grand a piece, a committee boat, a bar, a kitchen, showers etc. it does put bike racing in a field with some portaloos into perspective.
Mike- I think for £30-£40 you'd have enough money to pay people and still have some extra. Just did some sums and based on hiring enough Sportident stuff for 80 riders and five stages from mudandsweat and paying my marshalls £50 each the event would have cost £24.
I'd say the bigger issue here is £50 preventing someone who's 17 years old who could be the next Josh Bryceland or whatever racing bikes because it's unreasonably expensive.
I guess the STW-Moaner-Everything's a rip off team could start organising these events in the middle of their busy lives, the bike shop they could run better and turn an easy profit could sponsor it.
The [url= http://www.sda-races.com/entries.html ]Scottish Downhill association[/url] have posted cost breakdowns in the past for their events, the below is for 2012 and my understanding is insurance and venue costs have increased significantly since then.
UPLIFT £22,332
MEDICS £18,166
NON-RACE COSTS £16,117
PRIZES/TROPHIES £12,380
MARSHALS £8,190
TOILET HIRE £6,570
SC LEVIES £3,971
FIELD HIRE £1,698
FC LEVIES £1,386
CATERING £1,356
SKIP HIRE £1,150
Total- £93,316
SDA runs 6 events a year. Not sure what costs were at that point in time but let's say £50 with average of 300 entries per round, that's an income of £90,000, so pretty much at break even.
They don't have timing costs in there as they have their own system rather than rent, though I understand they have just replaced their own system and paid £20k for a replacement. The costs for renting a dibber system is outlined above from Munro.
And that's to race on one descent, not multiple. I'd imagine insurance may be more expensive if you have 5 descents?.
That and multiple sets of timing gear, more marshalls, more timing people and more logistics.
No uplift costs for Enduros - that is a big factor.
At £50 per race with 400 plus riders money is being made - and why shouldn't it be ? If events are run by a commercial company, as SES is now, then they are paying tax, employing folk, carrying the risk etc.
(more marshals - no, DH is line of site marshalling, Enduro er isn't now that BC have stepped away)
Insurance isn't based on course distance, it is usually per rider, so the costs are levelled.
Of course if you're running it as a business there should be some money in it. I do think some are overcharging though.
It'd be nice if we could get a "club" scene going on- if local cycling clubs started putting on races for each other with volunteers then everyone would have a good race, it'd not cost much money and maybe a few more hot racers would emerge.
One of the good things about mountain biking is that there isn't a club scene.
Take a look at the SDA costings up there which bits would a club be able to reduce?
The club scene here in Oz is really strong there are some cheap events done at a local level for fun. Our local DH races are cheaper but there is a fraction of the uplift, 2 marshalls and all prizes are donated by sponsors.
The risk management stuff required by FCS (and possibly some insurance companies) puts MTB events well out of the reach of local club enthusiasts these days, if you have more than about 50 riders.
The FCS events "agreement" is a good read:
Which has backfired somewhat, as now people just run them unofficially without permission - in the valley they are very open about it, I have even seen posters.
In that SDA list above I'd query what the following are for:
NON-RACE COSTS £16,117
PRIZES/TROPHIES £12,380
MARSHALS £8,190
Not race costs is a bit wishy washy could be anything? Surely prizes are paid for by sponsors? And what marshals are getting paid? I assume commisaires get something but that seems a lot.
If the costs of Enduro put you off then there are plenty of cheaper racing formats out there like road, TT or XC.
I would say that Non-Race costs is the bill for the Commissaires at the catering van. But seriously, that is quite a bucket, although I am sure SDA are above question. Probably accommodation for all the staff at the various venues ? Trail building ? Marketing and website ?
At SDA I think marshals get £90 "expenses" (can't be paid as such as would then have to do the whole NI numbers and tax fandango).
Which has backfired somewhat, as now people just run them unofficially without permission - in the valley they are very open about it, I have even seen posters.
see http://www.matesrace.co.uk/event/index
Getting Marshalls is tough enough, paying them is one way to make sure you have enough (not enough marshals = no race) It would also cover things like free entries if you bring a marshal.
The prizes come up as £5/entry
and still in that people are not getting paid for a hell of a lot of work (6 races - 18 days of work just at the races plus all the other stuff that goes into it.) as for non race costs things like driving to the event and all the other stuff that just adds up.
Really interesting to see the cost breakdowns above. In answer to the OP, it's basically because staging events isn't cheap, especially as they scale.
A very tiny event can run with volunteers. A slightly bigger one might be able to break even with volunteers plus a single figure £ entry per rider making just enough to cover, say, equipment hire and any venue fees (etc.). A much bigger event will have large production requirements in terms of time, and won't run well at all without at least some paid staff. As production time reaches further back from the event day, and staffing requirements scale beyond what a small group of volunteers can do or coordinate, that starts reaching into significant costs. Infrastructure and venue fees don't necessarily benefit from any economies of scale either.
The frustrating thing as an organiser (I don't run bike events, but I do run events) is that what you and your team do is absolutely exhausting, often involves long hours and a whole load of crisis management, yet is essentially invisible to everyone who turns up and makes use of all the stuff you sorted out. I think that's one of the reasons events can [i]feel[/i] expensive.
In that SDA list above I'd query what the following are for:NON-RACE COSTS £16,117
PRIZES/TROPHIES £12,380
MARSHALS £8,190
They're laughing at you right now from their cigar and champagne den.
OT: I used to laugh when I saw the race winners of various series holding up their cheques
[img] 
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I'll be honest having helped run all kinds of events from XC, DH, TT and RR, I'm amazed at how much SDA are spending on prizes and marshals. Hard to say either way whether NON-RACE COSTS £16,117 is value or not as it is so vague.
I'll be honest having helped run all kinds of events from XC, DH, TT and RR, I'm amazed at how much SDA are spending on prizes and marshals. Hard to say either way whether NON-RACE COSTS £16,117 is value or not as it is so vague.
Marshalls doesn't seem that unreasonable.
6 races, 2 days per race, £50 per marshal. Only works out at an average of less than 14 marshals per race day. Seems about right?
Why are events so expensive ?
Try organising one yourself, you will see why.
There 2 reasons why events might carry a higher entry fee than you might expect:
1 - Supply & demand.
2 - It costs a lot to run.
[i]TINAS- I know we balk at the Birkett Trophy in the Lake District because it's about £25-30 quid! Sailing does depend on volunteers- but the volunteers are expected to volunteer as part of their membership to a club (we have to do race duties twice a year or we can't sail in the races, which seems fair). But considering they are paying for a club house, rent on a lake, a couple of ribs at a few grand a piece, a committee boat, a bar, a kitchen, showers etc. it does put bike racing in a field with some portaloos into perspective.[/i]
Bar? So you are actually taking income in elsewhere, along with other food/drink I guess in the club house.
[i]6 races, 2 days per race, £50 per marshal. Only works out at an average of less than 14 marshals per race day. Seems about right? [/i]
Who are you getting to marshal for 10 hrs for £50? And get there/back.
Who are you getting to marshal for 10 hrs for £50? And get there/back.
Me personally, nobody but I was trying to make the point to the OP that the overall marshall cost didn't seem unreasonable. SES is £50 per day plus lunch this year, so an assumption of £50 a day in 2012 is not unreasonable.
I think we are making the same point, the marshalling cost quoted is perfectly reasonable.
Maybe I've been doing it wrong, but I've never been involved with an event where the marshals get money, we've always given up our time (and any expenses) for free.
The way I see it.. is that events are either run by charities, who are trying to raise funds, or by businesses who are looking to recover their costs + turn it a reasonable profit.
As the cost breakdown above has shown, there are a lot of 'hidden' costs that aren't immediately obvious.
I did a small scale charity sportive earlier this year, which was around £18, and included a feed station, proper timing and a hot meal at the end...
Maybe I've been doing it wrong, but I've never been involved with an event where the marshals get money, we've always given up our time (and any expenses) for free.
On the flip side I can't remember last time I did a race that didn't pay the marshals, I thought it was pretty normal now. Seems to be such a struggle to get enough onboard that incentives are needed.
Simon, bit of a double edged sword that. Lots of clubs, lots of people, lots of events. Clubs help each other, marshals do it to say thanks for all the Marshalling they received. Result I can race four times a week all within 1/2 hour from here. Five if you count the club based mtb series.
http://www.britishdownhillseries.co.uk/marshal-brief/
The number of marshals needed for a gravity event to go ahead means that people have paid them covering expenses to get there or just as thanks for their time. It would be great if enough people would turn up and do 16hrs over a weekend in their own time out of the goodness of their heart in a random location and get themselves there and home again but it just didn't seem to happen.
For big day long events we have shifts, again the club network really helps.
Even marshalling the CX nationals was out of love, but the reward was getting the World Cup.
I've been trying for years to get a mtb series going, and even with BC help I've had no joy.
As for sportives, too expensive. I've organised them and road races including the vets national championships, if id charged sportive prices I'd be minted.
However I've no idea what costs are like for enduros? But talking to Pat Adams I assume it's the charge landowners make that really Sting.