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I've got a Pivot Switchblade that has the option of a high or low setting. Being "rad" yet also a 29er rider, I've had it in the low setting since I bought it a year ago. Slacker head, lower BB of course. Even with 175mm cranks I've never had a pedal strike issue.
Listening to a podcast with Charles Murray and Eddie Masters a couple of days ago they were discussing the merits of adjusting head angle, BB height and chainstay length.
Murray reckoned he tested his Specialized (he rode the Stumpy for EDR duties I believe) with +1.5, neutral, -1.5 and couldn't tell the difference.
Eddie said he always rode his Firebird with the flipchip in the high setting enabling better pressure over the front wheel. Given that's something I think I could improve I flipped my chip that night and gave it a run yesterday morning.
It felt really good. Lots of grip, but also firmed up the DW link a bit so the pedalling felt keener. Got some fast times on tracks I know well, and managed to catch a front wheel tuck on a blown out steep gravelly corner as my weight was already over the front. Tomorrow i'll be riding more flowy and jumpy tracks so it'll be interesting to see if the higher BB proves negative.
Think it depends on the chip/bike tbh, both bikes I've had with flipchips were still less low and less slack than I'd choose even in "low and slack" mode. If I bought a bike that had geometry I liked right out the door and then chips to change it around in that ballpark for sure I'd be trying them all.
I’ve tried my last generation Stumpjumper in both the high and low settings. It came stock in the low setting, and after trying both, I think the low setting is best for me - still would like to try shorter cranks though to minimise pedal strikes.
I had a Banshee Spitfire that had three dropout heights and swappable dropouts, giving -0.5/0/+0.5 on the angles and -6/0/+6mm on the BB height and 10mm chainstay length. Rode it with all six, all had pros and cons. Also tried an angleset to knock 1.5 deg off the head angle. And then a Bird Zero AM that I tried with 130/140/150mm forks and two anglesets and a straight headset. Again, could feel all the changes!
Current bikes have a flipchip on the full-sus (as a full 29” low wasn’t very low so I never tried high, as a mullet high puts it in a nice place and I think low would make it too unbalanced) and sliding dropouts on the hardtail (shorter is briefly fun, middling is better).
It does feel like most people don’t bother trying the other settings or think they can’t feel a difference - sometimes it’s not immediately obvious but it shows up as you ride for longer or more on the ragged edge.
but it shows up as you ride for longer or more on the ragged edge.
I was quite surprised that Murray (a qualified engineer I believe) didn't notice much over 3 degrees head angle change.
I’ve one bike with a flip chip which I’ve left in high as the BB is already pretty low so don’t want to be making it any lower. I did think I might use it on the next bike park visit but probably won’t as it goes well as it is.
The stuff about not noticing is interesting as I’ve a few bikes with very different geos, when switching between the bikes I do notice the difference and it can take a few runs to get comfortable but after that I wouldn’t say I think that much about it.
I suspect that for Charlie Murray he’s a great rider and whatever the set up of the bike he’s going to get the most out of it as he’s able to adapt.
I've had my geometron g13 since 2017.
I put it in the high setting this week. It felt better when pedaling and whizzing through tame singletrack. I didn't get to try it on anything else that ride
I wouldn’t over complicate it. Ride your bike in both settings and decide what works best for you
I've had a good play around the head angle and hi/lo chip on my Stumpjumper. The low BB and neutral HA cornered really well, but was a bit prone pedal strikes on the trails I mostly ride - my next purchase might be a set of shorter cranks. I've mostly settled on high BB/slackest HA, which is plenty confident on steep stuff and still allows actual pedalling in locations with roots and rocks. I've broken out the slackest/lowest setting for the odd uplift day in steep terrain.
I had a play on my both my bikes. One had a +10mm on the chain stays that I preferred. The other I prefer low bb and neutral on the head angle. I noticed the lower bb more than the headangle
Running my Turbo Levo in the lowest/slackest settings. Was always conscious of the pedal strikes when climbing rough terrain especially with carbon cranks.
Went from 160 mm cranks to 150 mm cranks earlier this year and just returned from 7 weeks riding in all kinds of terrain and not had a pedal strike
So far so good 🤞
My Rocky Mountain has 9 (nine!) options on the chip. It came set in the middle one and has remained there!
Levo - I have the slack HA with high BB, never changed it
My Banshee Prime has flip chips at the drop out, I initially set it in Lower/Slacker, tried it in Less low/less slack, went back to the Lower/Slacker setting.
The Less low/less slack was good on those sheep track trails on the side of grassy hill where you can clip a pedal on the uphill side. The other setting was better about everywhere else. Though if I had a lighter more sprightly build on it I might feel differently.
You can get different dropouts to make the chainstays even longer (they are quite long as standard) but I haven't bothered.
My Rise LT has a high/low option on the linkage, set to low since it arrived. I like how it rides so I've never felt the need to change it. I did swap to 155mm cranks though as the stock 165s were very prone to pedal strikes.
On my Stumpjumper Evo I set it up differently for bike parks, trail riding and the alps.
It may just be placebo, but I do feel a difference.
If you have air suspension leaving the bike in the sun probably makes more difference than the chip. 😋 Joking aside the amount of air in shock has much more effect on ride height and allows trying a much greater range of ride heights.
Low setting for me, the high will be used if I put a smaller back wheel in.
I've done a fair bit of adjustment, previous bikes had adjustable high/low postion at the seatstay/shock and adjustable head angle cups. New bike (not yet ridden) also had adjustable progession on the shock.
I think its important to play with the adjustments, they are their for a reason, and whilst the standard response is always (lowest and slackest) I've found that not always to be the best compromise even for a bike that predominantly ridden downwards! (I tend to err towards slacker but not lower at the BB).
Its also very important to make sure you are re-considering other setup choices, if you tilt your whole bike backwards by 1.5 degrees, have you tilted your saddle angle and bar roll forward to compensate? Have you adjusted your suspension rates to move your weight back to the centre? etc ec....
When I got my Levo SL2 I fitted the slack HS cup and the bike was still steeper than my previous bike, but found the front washed out more. Swiftly put the neutral cup back in. Was running it originally in full 29, so had the low bb and longer chain stay option. When I went to mullet I only changed the bb chip to high, to get it back nearer to the original height.
Never change it for riding different locations. I'd rather have a consistent fell that I'm used to, rather than constantly trying to optimise the set up.
"I was quite surprised that Murray (a qualified engineer I believe) didn't notice much over 3 degrees head angle change."
Whilst I'm sure he's a good enough rider to handle the changes, I'm marking that down as "broadcaster says something they don't actually believe because it attracts attention".
I just checked on his bike and I think it's only 2 deg from slackest to steepest but when you add up the changes it is quite a big difference - in the steepest setting the front wheel is 22mm closer to you, the trail 15mm shorter, the BB 4mm higher, the reach 6mm shorter; so everything makes it less stable and quicker responding. It's a MUCH bigger difference than you'll get from most
"the amount of air in shock has much more effect on ride height and allows trying a much greater range of ride heights."
I used to run tons of shock sag but firm damping on my Levo in full 29 to make it lower and slacker. Now it's mullet I run less sag and and get the BB in a nice place even with the flipchip (which isn't a big change) in high. If I let it get too low (as when the old shock was losing air) I'd notice the weight balance shifting rearward and the front tyre not gripping as well.
"if you tilt your whole bike backwards by 1.5 degrees, have you tilted your saddle angle and bar roll forward to compensate?"
I remember the bars on my Spitfire feeling too low when going from low to high as it shifted the BB up by the 12mm and thus brought the stack height down by a similar amount. And the bar roll and saddle angle felt off too. Going from neutral (for trail riding) to low (for uplifts) was a small enough change and it suited the change in purpose.
This reminds me that I was meant to flip mine into the slack/low setting before riding in the Alps this week. Oops
Another ride this morning and plenty of quick times. Gripped well in berms if I focused on angulation I think I’ll keep it on high mode. Racing next weekend on a very rocky course full of loose flat turns so that will be interesting.
Set my stumpjumper in high after getting pedal strikes and then fitted shorter cranks. It’s still in high, haven’t died yet
Yeah in all honesty I just don't believe that comment about not feeling the difference. I've done 1.5 degree and 2 degree headsets in a couple of bikes and it was transformative, properly "keep bike for years longer" different. And drawbacks as well as positives.
I guess there's a difference between "slack to very slack" compared to "not slack enough to slack" but still, one of mine I pushed to 63 and could still feel a clear difference.
My Orbea Rise LT came with the chip in high mode - really didn't like it at all, was worried I'd completely messed up buying it. Flipped to low mode and loved it. Clearly made big difference for me. Left it alone and I've not thought about it since until reading this thread
I listened again and he actually said that with the head angle he could notice a difference in the car park, but once actually riding fast there wasn’t a noticeable difference, except when he went from steepest to slackest. The speeds on his test track were all the same, the cornering felt the same. So he chose neutral.
But with the BB height adjustment he could feel much more difference.
tried flipping the chip in my santa cruz from low to high (a whopping half a degree I beleive). Of couse I also regreased the linkage and adjusted my saddle position, so those other two things were more noticable. Cant say I could detect the geometry changes. Still dragged my chainring on the same spot I always hit too.
tried flipping the chip in my santa cruz from low to high (a whopping half a degree I beleive). Of couse I also regreased the linkage and adjusted my saddle position, so those other two things were more noticable. Cant say I could detect the geometry changes. Still dragged my chainring on the same spot I always hit too.
For most recent Santa Cruz frames, the chip is mainly there to change shock progression for coil vs air - there's only a small residual effect on geometry (0.3 HA)
I went and checked, seems my Ebike has a flip chip. Too dirty to tell what it does, I have never tried it
For most recent Santa Cruz frames, the chip is mainly there to change shock progression for coil vs air - there's only a small residual effect on geometry (0.3 HA)
hang on, which should I be using? I have a coil and air shock for this bike?
