What with the trends for slacker ha with frames like the mmmbop I was just wondering what the general feedback was now that they have been in the market for a while?
Do people see the benefit over say 68 ha bikes, or is there more to it?
My HT build will have a 66 HA with 140mm forks so I'll know myself soon enough 🙂
Slack Evil Sovereign here. Love it.
456SS with 150mm Z1sl's here. Lovely but climbs are nasty (or am I unfit?).
My Dialled Alpine was my intro to slack HTs and I've never looked back - too much fun. U-turns or lock down forks (ala Zocchis) are essential for 'proper' rides with climbs and everything.
It's wonderful, really wonderful.
It surely depends on your riding. My PA isn't considered slack at all nowadays but I wouldn't want anything slacker for the twisty SE riding I do on it, barges don't go round tight corners very well!
Couldn't tell you what the HA of my bike is. Don't really care very much about it either
blue pig here - it's brilliant.
the best thing about it is the head angle (about 67/68ish).
i should have bought a summer season - it turns out i don't really need/use the 140mm travel in my forks, it's just the head angle i like.
slack head angles with short travel forks please!
yes, Brant Richards is/was right.
Me. 456 SS with 'only' 105mm Marzocchis but still very slack. Feels lovely. Much better on fun, tech stuff than my old Soul but I'd not want to go on an all day epic on it. Most of my riding is 2 hour tech fests though so for that, slack = good.
made my mx comps feel more modern, on the mmmbop commuter
I chop and change between Pikes and Lyrics on my BFe - roughly 68 and 67 respectively, I would guess.
It's a little bit bargelike with the 160s on unless its proper steep (Alps, DH courses), at which point it's awesome. The Pikes are great in most UK conditions with a 50mm stem and widish bars.
Got an mmmbop with 160 on the front. Rides pretty much as I'd expected. Bit of a effort getting around uphill switchbacks. Not too bad on the tight twisty stuff. And feels great when it's fast, flowing and smooth. Taking it to Llandegla this weekend, reckon it'll be a great bike for a blast round there.
Slack head angle yes....
also like a steepish seat tube,which the blue pig has and this is what makes the blue pig good for me,over the front a bit for the climbs and corners..
as with other hardtails ive had seat tube angle werent too good on the liks of cove stiffee,bfe,p7,too much wibble wobble on the climbs for me,unless wind the forks which defeats the object and too much faffing.,
Carbon 456 with Lyrik U-Turns. Don't know how slack that is, but probably a bit? Rides ace. Usually run them at 140mm for general trail duties, 115mm for ling climbs, full beans for Peaks descents. No idea what the HA is at the various heights, but they don't cause much in the way of problems in use, so I can't see why I'd not want it as slack as it is.
Is 68 HA slack? I was thinking that most people who have slack HA bikes would be in the region of 66-67, i know its only 1 degree, but most trail type frames have a 68 HA anyway, and are often not called slack?
My HT build will have a 66 HA with 140mm forks so I'll know myself soon enough
Where/when are you measuring the head angle at 66deg?
When it's leant against the garage wall, or when you're sat on it?
The two viral marketing kings go head to head.....
Popping up on a subject-related forum to pimp Ones' wares is hardly 'viral marketing'...
66deg static on a 160 bike is about 68.5deg at ride height. Which isn't steep, but isn't slack.
James has his Summer Season set up with 140mm Vans (they are i believe short for their length!) It looks and acts well slack. It is his xc bike, which also goes down the DH tracks (fast), does the jump trails (jump bikes are usually steep), he jumps pretty big and then .. and this really gets my goat he out climbs us. There is local climb very steep and loose at the top, needs some thinking, some traction, most fail, but he always gets up it!
It is a real lark on the steep downs. So Much for these slack HTs what really interests me is fat tyres.. 😯
ps
hi Brant 😀 -stacks of his kit in our house.
Hi Si - one bit of his kit.
Yes, now can Brant please lob 5deg off the seat angle as well on his bikes so that they work on talas/lockdown forks? You know theres something wrong when its easier to climb with 150mm of bob tastic marzocchis up front than it is with them locked down resulting in a seat angle steep enough to make a TTer wince.
Going to try a size smaller summer season with layback post next year, which is anoying as I like everything else about the bike.
si_progressivebikes - MemberIs 68 HA slack? I was thinking that most people who have slack HA bikes would be in the region of 66-67, i know its only 1 degree, but most trail type frames have a 68 HA anyway, and are often not called slack?
i've been saying this for months.
my pig is completely normal if you compare it with most 140mmish FS bikes, but for reasons that i can't understand, hardtails usually have steeper head angles - around 70ish.
i have no idea why.
the average hardtail rider/designer must like crashing i guess...
Different/same measuring techniques?
Sit on a hardtail and it gets steeper, sit on a full suser and it gets slacker/stays the same.
That and the kind of speeds where slack angles make sense your either not using your suspension on a hardtail because its smooth and fast, and therefore doesnt need to be so slack, or on a full susser, because theres no way a hardtail is going to go fast enough over rough ground to justify a DH-slack angle.
slack head angles don't just work at high speeds - they make sense for steep descents too.
(keeps the weight distribution 'nice' - stops you having to hang off the back to stop yourself pitching over the front).
if you want to ride a Ht down a steep trail, you could argue that you'd need a [i]slacker[/i] static head angle than an equivalent FS - cos as you correctly point out, a HT steepens under load...
Define 'steep'
its either going to be steep = fast in which case I'll take the chopper please
or steep and twisty in which case I'll take the sharper angled bike.
Rolling down a steep slope might be easier due to the longer front center on a slacker bike but how many DH runs are like that?
if it's steep and technical, i'd rather not be hanging off the back - buzzing my backside with the tyre.
i'd rather have a 'slack' head angle that allows me to remain centred on the bike and in better control...
in my experience, the fastest trails are not the steepest, steep usually means slow cos you'll be on the brakes (usually).
I measured static, cos that's the way I prefer. Actually I don't mind how they are measured as long as everyone does the same and understands what it means.
It's interesting, Brodie say the ti holeshit s slack with a 67.5 static ha, chumba say their 68 ha hard tail is neutral, when in reality there is not much between the two all things considered.
I couldn't understand why my 68.5 deg HA Marin with 140mm forks climbed so well, but then someone pointed out that the long wheelbase probably helped a lot!
Wasn't as much fun on tight (flattish) singletrack as my 70 deg Duster though.
Yes, now can Brant please lob 5deg off the seat angle as well on his bikes so that they work on talas/lockdown forks? You know theres something wrong when its easier to climb with 150mm of bob tastic marzocchis up front than it is with them locked down resulting in a seat angle steep enough to make a TTer wince.
It thought it was designed precisely so that you CAN climb on it with a big fork. If you are desperate to use your TALAS you can always get a different frame though 😉
I measured static, cos that's the way I prefer. Actually I don't mind how they are measured as long as everyone does the same and understands what it means.It's interesting, Brodie say the ti holeshit s slack with a 67.5 static ha, chumba say their 68 ha hard tail is neutral, when in reality there is not much between the two all things considered.
Our 160mm travel hardtails (Bagger288 and Troof) are listed as 67deg. But that's sagged.
Static, like you measured they are 64.7deg h/a.
That's quite slack, but perfectly rideable. A Blue Pig is about 65.5 deg static with a 140mm fork.
Mmmbop with u-turn 150mm Revelations here and a +10mm Hope Headset. Mmmm. Spends most of its down at 140mm effective but it does get jacked up sometimes when I just feel like chucking it at things. It replaced a Soul which by some people's definition is also slack but I wanted there to be no doubt 😆 Love it... Never yet felt that it's a disadvantage on either it or the full suss. Still got a steep angled rigid XC bike though.
Ragley (posh pig) Ti. Same as the Blue Pig. No more blues downhill, did my first drops on it and i was coming from a 5' FS trailbike......
Anyone got any idea of what the trail figures are with these slack head angles?
Ragley is circa 90mm at ride height.
Balfa Minuteman - 2002 slack head angled beefy hardtail. 66deg with 120mm forks! Longer fork than that and the seat angle got overly slack for climbing (70deg). The Balfa is a hooning weapon and hugely capable all around apart from the dinky seat tube and huge seatpost... also the problem was the weight, as things broke I built it heavier until 35lbs was just stoopid. So I bought a Whyte 19 which has very similar geometry... on paper... but the sky high bottom bracket makes it much more twitchy.
I'm still looking for something between the two - so a slack headangle, steep seat angle and low bottom bracket are high on the wish list!
2002 slack head angled beefy hardtail. 66deg with 120mm forks!
With 30% sag, that steepens to 67.4deg at ride height - about the same as a Ragley Blue Pig.
Unless stated otherwise, should we assume that quoted head angles are static unsagged?
BFe with 140mm Pikes so I guess about 68 degrees? Feels well nice after being used to a 71 degree head angle for so long. Talking both unsagged here as far as I'm aware. Was thinking about going up to 160mm Lyriks but thinkin the extra 20mm probably won't make much difference.
BFe with 140mm Pikes so I guess about 68 degrees? Feels well nice after being used to a 71 degree head angle for so long.
68degs static is 70degs with 30% sag.
I used to own a rigid kona with a 70 ha, so not so much different to a 70 ha sagged bfe with pikes 🙂
No, I run a 68.3 degree head angle with 140mm forks on an old Sovereign.
I'm unconvinced by super slack HAs on hardtails- on a bouncer, it's great, but you do have a rear shock to soak it up. You don't on a hardtail, you "work the fork" (tm and c bikeradar 2008) and this needs a steeper head angle in my opinion. I don't think a steep head angle is for everyone, but I think a skilled rider will get more out of a slightly steeper HA.
I got a small chammy frame with Lyriks on. Gawd knows what the head angle is, prolly about 66-67? It's fab for steep stuff, DH stuff, bit wishywashy for pedally undulating techy trails, and a pig to climb with unless I wind the forks down. Never liked climbing much on a HT anyway, so the forks tend to stay at 160.
68degs static is 70degs with 30% sag.
Trailstar must have been about 74 then, that's approaching a bmx HA 😕 I don't run 30% sag though, probably around 20 if that. Feels a bit "wallowy" to me if there's more than that.
Working the fork is a whole lot easier when it's not trying to throw you off the front.
I thought trail was set on the fork. Is 90mm a horiz measurement brant?
