[Closed] Whinstone Lee Tor - CutThroat Bridge - is it being flattened?

Sure others can give more detail, but I think it's being done by an organisation called Moors For The Future, who have a good reputation for sympathetic work. Peak District MTB have been involved in planning the works, and maybe Ride Sheffield too?

Its guided improvements, not DCC and has needed work for a long time

More info  http://www.moorsforthefuture.org.uk/cutthroat-track-bridleway

Before & during

Only the previously dreadful mini-bogs-of-doom bit near the 'corner' have been done - and it rides pretty well if I'm honest. I would struggle to see why anyone would continue to sanitise it further up as excellent work has already been done by Peak District MTB on those bits. It was done so well, in fact, that it has led to the path actually narrowing - if you are descending, stay left (high on the hill) and there is a cracking line that has several sections that have been 'manufactured' by PDMTB. Hopefully the 'digger and sharp sand' stuff is going to stop where it is (which is right up to where it was necessary).

There is a lively thread on the PDMTB Facebook page about the cheeky off the top of WLT. It seems the landowner is taking an interest in the cheeky and has used the term 'damage'. I think the whole area is being 'managed' pragmatically by PDMTB to avoid confrontation. Make the kosher descent better for everyone and hopefully reduce the traffic on the cheeky. Whether you agree with kowtowing to landowners when walkers and dogs etc are still allowed anywhere on the open access land is by the by (I personally find it a bit objectionable that bikes are always the first point of call for landowners who really just want everyone off their land). Fact is that the landowner up there seems to be a bit of a NIMBY, so any action to make the proper RoWs better for all cannot do any harm and will hopefully alleviate pressure on the bit the landowner really gets sweaty about.

PDMTB and the rest are acting in the best interests of riders up there - quite why the landowner has an issue on land that is:

A) Open to walkers anyway

B) Is 'broken' land artificially managed to keep young heather

Is beyond me - but they own the land, so the rest of us (unfortunately) have to tug the forelock and say "yessir" a lot.

I'm praying the works don't extend any further up the proper bridleway, though. It really doesn't need it and going any further up takes it out of the realm of 'repair' into the realm of 'sanitising to deliberately make less fun'. So we'll see, I guess.

@Podge.

I know we've had differences in the past - but as you seem to be in the know on this one........

Are there any plans to go further up the BW with what has already been done - or is what I saw last Sunday (25/3/18) the full extent of this repair?

Taken from my link... "Around 370 metres of the new pathway has now been laid – with approximately 80m still to go before the end of the month."

Not really sure what that translates to but I imagine its just the lower, undefined, messier 450m that is being done.

I think a lot of the bags up there contain planting rather than surfacing material.

which way down is this? has it been sanitised down to ladybower pub side? (I usually climb up from lb pub to the top of WLT towards Sheffield way)

ive had a look at the link, and still cant figure out exactly which section it is?

Its from Cutthroat up towards WLT

Not the exact route but a representation of 450m on that track so basically a quarter of it is being done. The first pic I added was in the lower mid quarter so I cannot see it extending too far up the hill.

The idea is to repair the track and redefine the original route, not to sanitise it.

@Podge.

Thanks for the reply.

@Oscillate.

It is the proper bridleway. If you climb up from the pub, through the gates and the nature reserve you end up on open moorland running parallel to the road to Sheffield. After about 600m(?) you turn left into a small valley then left again so you are pretty much facing back towards the pub. About 100m after this, you turn almost 90 degrees right and face straight up the hill. It is this section that has been 'done'. This bit used to be a collection of horrendous bogs and ruts. This then gradually bent around to the left before going all the way to the junction. The repair is pretty much isolated to the horrible boggy section in the crook of the corner I am on about.

dannyh & podge! yep I kinda thought it would be that section, its always been a bit rutted etc (actually used to be a pretty good descent 10 years back even with the ruts), but its defo been worse last few times ive ridden it (llong before xmas), Its almost impassable climb wise with the ruts/bogs so that sounds like some top work has been done

dannyh - cheers for description, its what I imagined would be fixed up there, I know the opposite once you get to the top back down is also quite bad (the climb the opposite way), though its that long since I came that way up it may well have been done also?

I still cant really forgive the folk that sanistised the very tops of derwent tops though, they've just ruined what used to be an ace walk or ride (yes I know that's cheeky, but still) with all the natural rocks and surfaces

but massive kudos to the repair guys doing this sort of stuff, its really appreciated by most mtb'ers I'm sure 🙂

Oscillate,  the descent down the side of the pub (often known as ‘Alpine’) is one we’ve been explicitly asked to leave alone precisely because of the damage that’s been done by too many users.  As you say, it’s a long time since it was particularly good anyway.  I feel your pain, as for years this was the end of my standard ‘going for a ride but no plan’ route and I’ll miss it a bit.

Plenty of information on Ride Sheffield, Coggers and doubtless everywhere else except the national titles...

the descent down the side of the pub (often known as ‘Alpine’) is one we’ve been explicitly asked to leave alone precisely because of the damage that’s been done by too many users

Which is something that does get my goat a bit - "too many users". Not necessarily too many bikes. If the issue is 'damage due to overuse' then all users need to be kept off. In my opinion. But it is the landowner who holds the whip hand, so the game must be played.

All this stuff needs considering on a case by case basis:

I am still in two minds about Cut Gate. Yes, the bog of doom is horrendous. Yes, bikes have CONTRIBUTED. But it is a remote moorland crossing - there should be elements that are wild and boggy. The attention will lead to more use and more pressure on other sections as well as potentially enabling use in totally unsuitable conditions. Maybe the bog of doom is useful in dissuading some users and others at certain times of year. I hope not, but this could be case of being careful what you wish for.

Rushup Edge didn't need anything doing - this was a blatant attempt by DCC to dissuade mountain bikers from using it by making it boring. As it has been left it is faster and more dangerous as a result.

Routes that are always going to see traffic and that are made impassibly boggy by use need sorting. Other considerations should apply on routes that are more remote - in my opinion.

Anyway - back on topic - the Cutthroat Bridge bridleway is (hopefully) being improved for the general good and will stop at 'repair' before encroaching into 'sanitisation'.

But the 'Alpine' path has been damaged by bikers using it through the winter/wet periods. Not helped by being widely published in magazine articles as it makes a nice photo cover.

It's not overuse by other parties as you rarely see any walkers on it as it's unpleasant to walk as it's so steep and it's not on many maps (light dashed black line)

As it's got more popular and known it's also been used by too many people who were not capable of riding the original thin singletrack (usually in big groups - I've seen groups of 30+ riders heading down that way on a Saturday afternoon). Which lead to numerous 'chicken' lines developing running alongside the original track in the moorland. Then the erosion got worse and these lines mearged to form the now knackered wide line.  The original hairpin doesn't even exist anymore as it's so blown out.

I've seen a fair few walkers on it. It started life as a walking path as most do.

Having said that - if the cap fits and all that - if the majority of the damage (wear and tear) is caused by bikes and we need to reverse that to keep the landowner happy, then it's 'No Bikes' for me. If that means we can keep the proper BW unsanitised and fun, then that is what we must do.

les arcs/alpine is a tricky one, I would truthfully imagine most the damage is done by mtb'ers tbh, as its steep loose, and people see that as the ultimate descent around (and travel far and wide to do it as part of a loop) but that said, I'm not critisicing that at all, its a great great track and should be ridden and yes its a shame that its eroded but that's just life, if we all shared the same access rights, maybe more people would contribute to fixing it, instead of feeling 'cheeky' that they shouldn't be riding such things, and having no interest in the maintenance as they aren't suppose to be on there in the first place

I love the idea of these maintain days, they are amazing by all involved, great community and spirit and if everything was legit and free to ride with no constraints, loads more effort could be made to feel proud of maintaining them

But if your a blue level skier you wouldn't go on a black run. You'd build up your skill level first and then attempt it.

Most the damage on Les Arcs has been done by the riding of chicken lines to avoid  the 'hard bits' and riding in wet conditions on soft ground.

In climbing there are self-policed bans on certain crags and boulders as the stone is liable to damage after wet conditions. The Roaches is a good example of this

Was up there about 3 weeks ago it looked like the before photo above, like the Somme! Could see where the excavators had started to build up a raised path area. Looked as though it needed cross drainage (there may well be some) rather than the path just damming the water on the uphill side.

I use it as a climb so the smoother surface going up is a bonus for me. A lot of water from the hillside above fills that naturally bowled section, time will tell if it lasts!

Is the right hand line off Les Arcs a FP as well?

The repair work is great, rode up it on Sunday.

Alpine is taking a hammering as mentioned the once awesome singletrack lines have been demolished.

It's still a good decent though. Wouldn' be surprised if very soon something's done to stop bikers on it.

evening all,

Been following this one with interest and it's nice to see some of the supportive comments on here for what's been going on. I'll try to answer a few concerns/questions a bit more clearly. Loads of stuff over on peakdistrictmtb.org and kofthep.com too giving background.

Cutthroat
PDMTB have been in close conversation with Moors for the Future about this. MftF are working the bottom boggy bit. Further up, James and his diggers have done a great job on restoring the top, mineral based line. MftF aren't going further up and no it's not going to be flattened; they're just sorting the boggy, badly draining bit. Everyone can help by staying on that singletrack line up top and not going on the heather/peaty bit. We did keep putting diverting rocks down but they kept getting moved unfortunately, but as Dannyh points out up there, "there is a cracking line that has several sections that have been ‘manufactured’ by PDMTB". When you discover it, you won't go back. It's two way as well.
Also, it's not that it's being managed pragmatically to avoid confrontation primarily. It was crap and getting worse so we said "can we sort it?". Simple as that really. That it leads to better relationships with the landowner and other groups is a bonus  - and hopefully you notice that it's, well, fun :o)

Rushup Edge
Still ongoing - but we have a more active dialogue with DCC now and there are better sounds coming out of them. It's slooooow though. The resurfacing work was stutteringly started owing to the results of a poor consultation which we got redone AND the designs sent back to the drawing board. Whether it was an intent to stop bikers riding up there I'm not going to speculate on - I think it's more arse covering really - but the response - your response was enough to get them to stop. Latest is we're waiting on another set of designs. It's still officially closed....

Les Arcs/Alpine/Mono/WLT cheeky
The official PDMTB note says all it can say really.  Evidence of riding on that path is being used against us when we're trying to have proactive discussions about increased access across the Peak. Last time it was used as evidence with me and Si from 18 Bikes/RS was in a local access forum meeting. Strava records were shown. We can bang the drum about how mountain bikers are responsible (and we are, we really, really are), but nobody listens when something like that is presented. Simple fact is that riding it causes unfortunate friction with the people we're trying to convince that MTBs aren't the devil.

what next? ah...

Cut Gate
Always bound to be a sensitive one and it's something we are/were acutely aware of when we first started talking about it. I love Cut Gate. I love it. It's remoteness. It's challenge. It's brilliance for riding.
So it was vitally important that mountain bikers led on any discussion about how it should be looked after. But you're bang on. Mountain bikers have only contributed to the damage up there. Making that argument has opened a lot of eyes in other groups. Making that argument has brought many groups together. The first thing we did about it was this document, which first got us talking to other groups and then which pretty soon got us on the BMC Mend Our Mountains radar and working once again with our friends at Moors for the Future. That's where we are now.
It's an MTB group led discussion so hopefully that gives you some reassurance. Other routes in the area are already earmarked for work anyway outside of the MoM project (I assume you mean North America), but to be involved in the shaping of how it's done is important we think.
So please back it - if we can make the money here who knows what kudos it will give us as a community.

I think that's everything queried up there. Hopefully I've helped. I'm up for a bit now so if you have any questions, shoot - or get me on DM.

And thanks for your support everyone - groups like RS, PDMTB, Ride Calderdale, Open MTB and Keeper of the Peak are doing it all for you lot; to make it better for you guys when you go out on your bike - encouraging support like this means a lot.

Chris
PDMTB

Brilliant reply! Thanks for taking the time to do that - it is appreciated.

One thing I’ll add is how quickly the PDMTB work on the upper parts of the cutthroat BW have bedded in and look natural. I assume someone moved the blocking rocks because it is still quite easy to get sucked down the hill - which is what was happening on a much bigger scale before. My advice for descending that is to stay left as much as possible, the created line does flow when you find it and the path is narrowing as a result.

If staying off of Les Arcs leads to more stuff like the upper and lower works on cutthroat, then I’m all for it.

And bloody Strava! Jeeeeeesus. If you’re riding cheeky (anywhere) for Christ’s sake don’t put it on bloody Strava! If you do, it won’t be cheeky for long, it will end up a well-known and ruined sloppy mess that gets shut off! Be happy that you’ve found some good riding and maybe share with a few friends.....

All good points on here and an encouraging discussion. I completely agree, it is essential to point out to the landowner that all user groups are responsible for damage to the WLT cheeky/les arcs.

We need to get our house in order, and it appears we are making positive steps it that direction.  Doing that won't stop the motorbikes on it but at least it will set a good example. I witnessed four off road motorbikes going UP the cheeky at the end of last summer. Sunday, midday, up to WLT, then up onto Derwent Edge. Quite a regular occurrence according to the PDNPA ranger i saw later that day.  I suspect that is also contributing to the widening of the final left hander.