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As someone who had a couple of CX bikes but wasn’t that impressed, I’m finally starting to see that a newer gravel bikes could really work for me
Can't really see why they would be much different. The geo differs by 10mm at most between say a Giant TCX advanced and a Giant Revolt advanced in size medium.
Gravel bike has 1 degree diff in head tube, 0.5 in seat tube, 10mm longer wheelbase and 10 more BB drop. Differences yes but hardly a completely different bike and once ridden for a few miles I wouldn't care which one I was riding and would be happy on either.
proper suspension that actually works at both ends
Yeah, I appreciate that the more elderly types need their comforts.
Yeah, I appreciate that the more elderly types need their comforts
🙂 aye, you should know !
The line they have to toe is not to stray too far towards MTB territory. At some point, they just become rubbish MTBs which misses the point entirely.
Agreed.
imo if it has drop bars it needs to be a decent road bike first, then stretch the off-road ability as far as you can until you snap to a rigid 29er with MTB bars as a better bike if doing a lot of off-road riding.
There isn't a way to make a good* road bike also work as a good* technical off-road bike (because of positioning, weight distro, the way we corner etc) so there's compromises to make.
*say, something fairly close to the benchmark of the type for a non-racer rider.
@jameso - I've ended up coming at this from the other direction. With a 29er that can run with front suspension or rigid, I reckon that the rigid option just makes for a worse gravel bike. So, if the route doesn't warrant suspension, the gravel bike just makes more sense. I do appreciate that it's not the same for everyone and what I might categorise as fun - trying to descend rough tracks and footpaths as well as I can - others might see as tediously slow. But then if I just wanted to be as quick as possible I'd be on full suspension.
In much the same way as most MTB innovation is now just trickle-in, there's no real "WOW!" new stuff anymore, I think gravel will end up the same.
What really started it or allowed it to grow was reliable tubeless tyres and wheels plus disc brakes. Without either of those, it would never have become A Thing.
I think you can evolve it into ever more distinct niches - dropper posts will be there on some of the bikes, rack/pannier mounts on some, short travel suspension might make a limited appearance but from here on it's more or less a gradual refinement.
It's almost taken the "pure" CX machine and just made it a bit more versatile, kind of like the pure XC race MTB was adapted over the years to make it more capable all-round.
And some of it is marketing. I suspect if you called it a drop-bar hybrid, no-one would ever have bought one!
I look at it this way: gravel bikes are better than road bikes off road. And better than mountain bikes on road. One of the reasons they're better on the road is that they have drop handlebars, which makes them different and arguably better than hybrids.
They exist in that floating bubble between the two zones, where if they become markedly better at either - road or off road - they stop being what they are and become compromised road or mountain bikes. Maybe.
Of course that also means that they're worse off road than a mountain bike and not as good, at least with bigger, non-slick tyres, on road as a road bike. But if that's how you see it, you'll probably steer clear anyway.
The logical conclusion is that they'll bobble along in their compromise bubble with small tweaks like droppers and token suspension and people will start with the 'aggro gravel' stuff and similar pointless labels.
Not the first time I’ve read this. I’ll warrant the UK has many more gravel miles than trail centre miles, by several orders of magnitude.
Was going to say exactly this, even in the south there's miles upon miles of bridleways/forest roads which are perfect for gravel bikes.
Can’t really see why they would be much different.
Bigger clearances for wider, tubeless tyres.
Associated room for MTB-style mudguards to keep mud out of rider's face.
Hydro disc brakes being much more widespread now.
Well I just ordered one because my old-style road bike is not so great on muddy lanes (25mm tyre max) and won't take proper mudguards or disc brakes. I also have a trail bike and a hardtail (not exactly a hardcore hardtail, but not XC either).
The decision to get a gravel bike rather than a modern road bike was easy - I don't race on roads, and where I ride there are plenty of smooth-ish off-road tracks to link the tarmac up and visit some nice hills and forests to boot. But I chose a gravel bike with relatively road like geometry, because most of its miles will be tarmac.
I anticipate the downside will be that in said forests are some tasty trails, so as I zoom past on my drop bars I will be thinking "if only I was on my other bike I could dive into the woods here for some fun". But a bike up to the trails (tyres in particular) would take a while to ride out there on, so it would be a bike in car job. It bothers me to drive to ride when I could ride there in an hour or so, but I realise I just have to decide which type of riding I want to do.
I’ve ended up coming at this from the other direction. With a 29er that can run with front suspension or rigid, I reckon that the rigid option just makes for a worse gravel bike. So, if the route doesn’t warrant suspension, the gravel bike just makes more sense. I do appreciate that it’s not the same for everyone and what I might categorise as fun – trying to descend rough tracks and footpaths as well as I can – others might see as tediously slow. But then if I just wanted to be as quick as possible I’d be on full suspension.
Makes a lot of sense and I suppose my MTB is similar, it's as close to being a passable road/gravel bike as I can tolerate with while still being a great bike on anything technical - it's not a fast great technical bike, it just handles well and is fun.
Bigger clearances for wider, tubeless tyres.
Associated room for MTB-style mudguards to keep mud out of rider’s face.
Hydro disc brakes being much more widespread now.
Disc braked CX bikes have clearance for big tyres these days. They run 33c because of UCI stipulation rather than frame limitation which covers the first two points
They also have hydro disc brakes which covers the third point.
As I said, not really much difference between the two and the small differences are just that.
The logical conclusion is that they’ll bobble along in their compromise bubble
As someone who never has more than one bike at a time I have spent the last 30 years bobbling along in a compromise bubble. May explain why I am not so picky about minor differences in bikes.
Disc braked CX bikes have clearance for big tyres these days
I meant CX bikes eight years ago when gravel wasn't really such a thing.
They run 33c because of UCI stipulation rather than frame limitation which covers the first two points
True, but since most high-end road/Cx bikes are based on the version the pros are racing, the consequence of this is that any sort of 'race-bred' CX frame is optimised for racing and typically doesn't have the clearance, since adding more clearance will necessarily compromise it (slightly) for its narrow design brief. Even though that sometimes means a version that's also compromised for the sort of riding most people are doing.
Relatively few 'Cx' frames have clearance for 40mm + guards, or 50mm tyres. Things like mudguard / rack mounts are also absent. Or, to put it another way, you can have those things but the manufacturer will call it a gravel bike.
Disc braked CX bikes have clearance for big tyres these days.
Almost no-one is making CX bikes these days, so there's a stumbling block immediately.
I think that they will continue to become more off-road capable, to the point that they will turn into exactly the same as mountain bikes. They will be labeled as 'Soil Bikes' but cunningly sold in different shops to mountain bikes so people won't make the connection. And being suckers for marketing, some people will buy a mountain bike and soil bike from the same company but different shops. They will be stored side by side in the heated garage next to the Audi, and yet the rider will never spot the fact that they are the same model with different stickers 😀
I have a Kona Dew Deluxe, I’ve joked on here before that it’s a gravel bike without realising it actually is.
An undersung bike that, it literally was ahead of the curve. I loved mine.
it was a mash up of a deluxe and a drop... making it the DewDropDeluxe, might use that as a band name.
It’s a hybrid ; )
Nope, clearly a flat bar gravel 😋
A colleague was telling me about a 50km gravel route in Hamsterley Forest which doesn't use any track twice, which he'd downloaded from a club website. I thought it sounded familiar so I went and looked, and it was indeed a route a mate had put together 15 years ago to be more like 90s MTBing as he wasn't into ladder drops and such - https://www.hamsterley-trailblazers.co.uk/index.php/rides-trails/trail-guides/the-hamsterley-half-century
I then looked at his Strava and he'd recently done a gravel ride in Swaledale which was over the same tracks I rode on a 90s MTB in the 90s.
So, I'm not saying that gravel bikes are just 90s MTBs, but gravel riding is just 90s MTBing.
So, I’m not saying that gravel bikes are just 90s MTBs, but gravel riding is just 90s MTBing.
The guy who runs my LBS says exactly this.
Actually it's quite amusing if you read any of the old Tim Woodcock "MTB touring" books or (even older) the Jeremy Ashcroft route guide and MTBing was all about finding a gravel track (ideally slightly downhill) to "blast along". You'd then carry your bike to the summit of the next long fireroad descent. Even some of the very early Vertebrate Graphics route guide books do the same.
Almost exactly the opposite to the way MTBing went which was to winch up a gravel climb then plummet down the steep / twisty/ gnarly singletrack.
I think for the majority of mountain bike riders (not people on here) the former may still be true, not everyone is doing 10ft gap jumps or enduro racing. Apart from when I'm at a trail center with my kids I still ride what you'd consider 80's/early 90's mountain bike routes, they are still there. A flat barred gravel bike is sometimes the better option for those routes and with modern MTBing gearing you can climb the ups as well. Only now your rims don't wear away in weeks and you don't have to carry a headset spanner to use after every descent.
I loved doing Tim's Scottish coast to coast and Derek Purdy's off road C2C back in the mid 90s. Maybe I was gravel riding and didn't know it.
I found Tim Woodcock's Wessex Way guidebook the other day, looks like a cracking gravel ride.
Only now your rims don’t wear away in weeks and you don’t have to carry a headset spanner to use after every descent.
Haha, and I used to have to reattach my cranks a couple of times each ride as well.
Only now your rims don’t wear away in weeks and you don’t have to carry a headset spanner to use after every descent.
Haha, and I used to have to reattach my cranks a couple of times each ride as well.
Disk brakes, aheadsets and reliable cranks are definitely an improvement over the parts on 90s MTBs.
Almost no-one is making CX bikes these days, so there’s a stumbling block immediately.
Who cares, the comparison was with a Giant TCX and a Giant Revolt which was a good comparison from a company that makes both and the differences between them are very small.
As a reminder my post was to someone who rode a CX bike and didn't like it but expected a gravel bike to ride much better. I am saying it won't be all that different, mainly because it isn't all that different, especially as pretty much any CX bike these days will take a 45c or more tyre. Even my old mini v braked race CX bike could take much bigger than 45c on frame clearance alone and it is only the brake cable stopping it.
Last week I was glorying in the purity of my narrow tyred rigid bike.
Now it's all dried out , it's a bone rattling pile of poo.
Full bounce for me til the mud comes back.
i owned a gravel bike briefly (or similar) when i lived in the New Forest. it was great, much more pleasant than a mountain bike in that, rolling-at-best terrain.
where i now live is predominantly winch and plummet riding. climb a forest service road then descend a mountain bike trail.
some of the forest service roads go on for miles (and miles). gravel bikes are popular with people who are looking for an alternative to the usual “laps” style of riding. if i had the time (which is code for fitness) i’d love to head off for a multi-day ride through the mountains on a gravel bike.
edit: as for the logical conclusion, as has been said above, the refinement of the category and sub categories until there is a great bike for every application.
As a reminder my post was to someone who rode a CX bike..............
Ah fair enough. I skim read through most of the comments because these ridiculous threads appear so regularly that no-one ever has anything original to say. Including me, it seems. 😀
So, I’m not saying that gravel bikes are just 90s MTBs, but gravel riding is just 90s MTBing.
If we hadn't been so into stupidly narrow bars back then we wouldn't be saying this now : )
I can't do what I did on my MTB in late 80s on my gravel bike, and it's not about being 35 years older : )
MTBs back in late 80s had fairly big bars and ok weren't great technically but they jumped, downhilled and went down really steep stuff better than a drop bar gravel bike. Well, unless maybe you made a gravel bike that is LLS geo and drop bars, but that would fall foul of my rule that it should be a good road bike too and not just a rigid MTB with bad bars for MTBing. And admittedly that's a daft rule anyway. A flat bar gravel bike is a better MTB than we had BITD, that's for sure. It'd have decent width flat bars for starters.
As a reminder my post was to someone who rode a CX bike and didn’t like it but expected a gravel bike to ride much better. I am saying it won’t be all that different, mainly because it isn’t all that different, especially as pretty much any CX bike these days
Mate, I've already told you I was comparing MY old CX bikes (10 years old) with current gravel bikes.
I can’t do what I did on my MTB in late 80s on my gravel bike,
Well, I've been trying to avoid the words Sl C******r, but if the (flat) shoe fits...
So, I’m not saying that gravel bikes are just 90s MTBs, but gravel riding is just 90s MTBing.
I have no idea why people think we just rode gentle bridleways and tracks in the 90s. I was young, and I was doing the most technical things I could find as fast as I could, as were all the other young people I knew. Sure, there were rides with lots of jeep tracks over mountains, but we didn't plan a ride without some rough descent taken flat out.
A flat bar gravel bike is a better MTB than we had BITD
My current El Mariachi is a much much better MTB than I had back in the day because it has:
Discs
Modern drivetrain
High sweep bars (admittedly these might've been available BITD)
2.35 tubeless tyres at half the pressure
23mm rims
29 inch wheels
A dropper
A tendency to drift nicely in corners instead of the front wheel washing out on any fast corner
A tendency not to dump me over the bars on drop offs
but we didn’t plan a ride without some rough descent taken flat out.
Yeah, but the problem was that connecting the 3 stretches of 200m of interesting track took 20 miles of wide, gravelly bridleway and roads. 😀
Yeah, but the problem was that connecting the 3 stretches of 200m of interesting track took 20 miles of wide, gravelly bridleway and roads.
Not round my way.
Sure there is a lot more tech now, but it was still around then.
Is the logical conclusion that in a few years the bike industry will pivot to a new niche (see also: fixed gears, fat bikes, wheelie bikes), and people will carry on gravel riding but there won't be 100+ post threads about it 😉
The 'fashions' that people love to hate will still be there. You can still get most stuff that you used to be able to get, albeit in better modern form. Rigid MTBs, XC bikes, gravel bikes, fat bikes etc. This is a good thing.
A lot of it just comes down to personal preference and where you’re willing to compromise. I’m down to one bike and tried that as a gravel bike. For me it was bobbins and about as much fun as a colonoscopy YMMV. I’m now on a Stooge Dirtbomb. Yes it’s slower on the roads but I avoid them as much as humanly possible. Everywhere else, including mild bridleway, fireroad and canal towpath it’s approximately a thousand times more fun than the gravel bike ever was. That’s just for me though.
Before there was gravel, there was the 1989 Specialized Rock Combo which looked brilliant in green and white (I even have a set of bars from one) and the early 90s Diamond Back Overdrive with Suntour components and 29 inch Panaracer Smoke Tyres. Throw in Bruce Gordon Rock and Road's and gravel has been a thing long before it got the name. Ride one. Don’t ride one. It’s all good.
I interviewed Gary Fisher during lockdown and he reckoned we could even get gravel plus with rims bigger than 29. Colour me intrigued!
Cheers
Sanny
"better modern"
I question any assumption that these two words have to go together. In some cases theymost definately don't.
My favourite bike is my singlespeed MTB, but if I could only have one bike, it would be my gravel bike.
I've got plenty of gravel and good bridleways on the South Downs, it does multi-day rides, great for road night rides when you can't see the potholes, and crucially, I can mix it up and use quiet roads to connect an off-road route, or ride off-road to my destination and then come home on-road when I'm out of time. And...it's great at cutting through deep winter mud and not getting bogged down carrying 10kg of mud.
Skill.
Compensator.
😭
Damnit.. Gravel bikes are U* B** anyway.
They seem like the ideal commuter for lots of people when you take into account how terrible the road surfaces are now.