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Its about time SRAM introduced a smaller pitch standard.
I am pretty sure shimano already tried it. Was there not a 10mm pitch?
TBH, it doesn't matter that Nicolai is making a gearbox for MTB As was said in the previous page: 99% of bike production is BSO, gearboxes need to compete in that market against a stamped product that can be made for pennies.
* I'm sure it will be excellent and he'll still just maybe sell a 100 a year (If that)
I am pretty sure shimano already tried it. Was there not a 10mm pitch?
Yeah, that's right. Wasn't a great success. I reckon it would work now though as chains are far more specific to gears. Would make for a smaller, lighter cassette
Something I would like to see on all bikes is a splined steerer tube and stem.
Could see it adding a bit of weight and may seem overkill, but at least your bars would always be 100% lined up with the front wheel and not out of line a few degrees because you didn't line it up properly when tightening your stem up.
Or maybe that is just me and my dodgy eyes, that thinks this as an issue!
Sidecars.
That’s why you need a down gravel bike too.
Ah yes, more niches/blurring of categories.
Upenduro
Crosstrail
Endurohill
Burly enduro bikes, but with 120mm travel
Mega travel, 180-200mm enduro bikes with dual crown forks but 12 speed gears and can climb
full suspension drop bar 120mm travel bikes
nickc
Subscriber
TBH, it doesn’t matter that Nicolai is making a gearbox for MTB As was said in the previous page: 99% of bike production is BSO, gearboxes need to compete in that market against a stamped product that can be made for pennies.
I thought future developments in MTB might be relevant to a thread on the future of MTB.
sbtouring
Member
Something I would like to see on all bikes is a splined steerer tube and stem.
Not alone, it's dfinitely much harder as stems get shorter, I spend ages lining up 35mm ones.
Splining them does present some challenges as it's hard to ensure the splines are aligned to the chassis - the steerer tube would have to be pressed into the crown with precise alignment which would be tricky and expensive - but it would be nice if they could just add a visible centre line on the steerer, maybe laser etch them after assembly.
Trimix
For E-bikes a g-box, maybe. But for normal bikes the weight is an issue. You need a new frame design which will only work with the g-box.
Wonder if you could make that modular? Unbolt your gearbox, fit an electric motor and battery. Two in one.
Been done: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/eightpins-ngs1-integrated-dropper-post-review.html
Yea, I knew of the liteville one, but no one else seems to have picked it up as a 'standard'. And it still looks like it could be more integrated. I'm surprised Cannondale weren't the first TBH, needle bearings and integrated stuff are their hallmarks.
Having been a full time roadie for years over the last few I've been reminded of how much I like a bit of off road xc jeycore lite by getting a gravel bike.... then I look at MTB and all these big burly bikes and jumps just dont do it for me and I dont want an ultra light xc race machine either, so I predict a rise in non competitive xc type bikes and events.
I'd still like to see a lightweight 160mm ish dual crown fork for trail/enduro riding.
Surely we're getting to the point where a smaller diameter but longer, dual clamped, crown would be a similar weight but stiffer and less seal friction.
Those pink bike Huck to flat videos are frightening, especially on the 29ers.
99% of bike production is BSO, gearboxes need to compete in that market against a stamped product that can be made for pennies.
Dropper posts.
MTB developments, and BSO 'development' are 2 very different areas of cycling. Is there any actual development done in the BSO market? Surely it just takes the 3/4/5 year old stuff that can be now be made for pennies and uses that, and trickles down technology from the high end stuff, so clutch mechs, 10/11 speed etc.
1x allows vastly more leeway in terms of tyre clearance and suspension adjustment. Putting a front mech on there ties you into having a tube in a certain place above the chainset to mount the front mech on and that really interferes with pivots and big tyres.
There was HammerSchmidt for a while wasn't there? I believe it gave 2 front gears with a single ring, although it never caught on.
I don't know whether if would be possible to design something that was affordable, reliable and efficient.
I thought future developments in MTB might be relevant to a thread on the future of MTB.
Touche...That article also goes on to say Nicolai sells maybe 1200 units a year. Nicolai is a v niche, v high end custom bike builder, He might build a very nice gearbox driven bike, but then he can do that already, and with belt drive and with any other niche thing you could possible want...But it doesn't change the fact that gearboxes probably aren't going to be the future for MTB.
nickc
But it doesn’t change the fact that gearboxes probably aren’t going to be the future for MTB.
Your point about BSOs is just irrelevant. New developments don't happen in that space. DIsc brakes, suspension forks, droppers, all that stuff appeared on high end bikes costing thousands more than the average BSO. But walk into Halfords now, and you'll see cheap bikes with all those things.
Gearboxes and electronics will be no different in time. You know, in the future.
MTB developments, and BSO ‘development’ are 2 very different areas of cycling
While i don't disagree, it's a circular development life rather than one way traffic. Without the BSO market there is no MTB market. While the technology clearly goes downwards, the mass production of those items funds the development of future technology, which in turn gets developed to a point where it can be massed produced for pennies so it can go onto BSO, which provides the profit margin for the development of MTB markets...and so on.
Something I would like to see on all bikes is a splined steerer tube and stem.
Was just thinking that threadless headsets have been largely untinkered with for a while. Obviously how you mount bearings in the frame is still an inconsistent mess, and the switch to tapered did a good job of breaking compatibility, but the stem/spacers/cap arrangement has been pretty standard for a bit too long.
And stem alignment annoys me too. Somehow misalignment is impossible to gauge when working on the bike, but becomes un-ignorable 30 seconds into a ride.
Your point about BSOs is just irrelevant.
Cost of new development is huge...mega money...Where does Shimano's profit come from? Clue; it's not XTR.
See any number of discussions about why more MTB don't have gearboxes...Because you can make them cheaply enough. Gearboxes have been around fro decades now, if they could be made cheaply, some-one would've done it by now. And saying "the future" isn't going to change that.
99% of bike production is BSO, gearboxes need to compete in that market against a stamped product that can be made for pennies.
Hub gears are pretty universal in the euro tourer / utility market - which is huge compared to sporty MTBs
“Not alone, it’s dfinitely much harder as stems get shorter, I spend ages lining up 35mm ones.”
Line your handlebars up with your fork crown - so much easier!!!
While i don’t disagree, it’s a circular development life rather than one way traffic. Without the BSO market there is no MTB market. While the technology clearly goes downwards, the mass production of those items funds the development of future technology, which in turn gets developed to a point where it can be massed produced for pennies so it can go onto BSO, which provides the profit margin for the development of MTB markets…and so on.
Completely agree.
Still, a product that won't ever compete in the BSO market (well, not for 10+ years) would still get developed. I still think it'll need company with the R&D budget of Shimano or SRAM to bring the gearbox to a viable option.
The derailleur was invented 100 years ago, it's about time someone came up with something better!
“Gearboxes have been around fro decades now, if they could be made cheaply, some-one would’ve done it by now. And saying “the future” isn’t going to change that.”
Derailleur gears have been done for over a century. But it still took decades for MTBs to progress from 5 speed cassettes to 12 speed cassettes with wide enough range to get rid of the front mech.
Also, the world of expensive bikes has changed radically in the last few years because of ebikes. Gearboxes have great potential with ebikes.
Your point about BSOs is just irrelevant. New developments don’t happen in that space. DIsc brakes, suspension forks, droppers, all that stuff appeared on high end bikes costing thousands more than the average BSO. But walk into Halfords now, and you’ll see cheap bikes with all those things.
Which space do you think they happen *for* though? See car manufacturers pushing for formula E, it's not done because they want to race expensive electric cars more than petrol ones, it's done because they see the mass sales of ICE as a dead end and e cars aren't.
The expensive stuff is developed because they see a market for the cheap ones in years but it takes a long time.
Dropper posts
Not even present on every high end bike yet, but equally you're now seeing them on 1 and a bit k bikes.
My first dropper was about 300 quid 12 plus years ago, you'd not have seen one on a 6k bike then.
nickc
Cost of new development is huge…mega money…Where does Shimano’s profit come from? Clue; it’s not XTR.
See any number of discussions about why more MTB don’t have gearboxes…Because you can make them cheaply enough. Gearboxes have been around fro decades now, if they could be made cheaply, some-one would’ve done it by now. And saying “the future” isn’t going to change that.
Cost of development is high - but that development is still happening, as Nicolai and Shimano's new patents prove. They're working on this stuff.
I didn't say they were cheap, they're not right now. But if they come to market with low weight and less drag, even at a high price point, they'll sell, and that will drive further development and refinement, and trickle down from there.
If your irrelevant ramble about BSOs was relevant, then Di2, AXS, Power Meters and a host of other stuff wouldn't exist.
Hub gears are pretty universal in the euro tourer / utility market – which is huge compared to sporty MTBs
Why would you replace hub gears on one of those with a gear box?
Cost of development is high – but that development is still happening, as Nicolai and Shimano’s new patents prove. They’re working on this stuff.
How long ago did shimano patent 13 speed? (could have been 12,the answer is donkey's years either way)
There's a patent from British rail for a flying saucer for christ's sake.
People have been working on things for years, that doesn't mean they're not rubbish or they're actually going to happen.
All I know is that if a company brought out a small, light gearbox, with little to no drag, that was available on a wide range of bikes, that had normal trigger style and/or electronic shifting, and a 500%+ gear range...
I'd be all over the that like a dog lapping up it's own sick. Mmmm.
😀
The pinion gripshift shows how little development has been put into them as of yet.
what Paul said! 😀
I'd completely overlooked somebody cracking a decent gearbox design when I started this thread but that I am excited by. Obviously I share some doubts about it happening but I live in hope!
Also related to this discussion....Why is a good percentage of this forum obsessed (and I use the word advisedly) with compatibility?
Why should bicycle bits in 2020 fit bicycles made in 2010 (or older) I've never really understood it.
If your irrelevant ramble about BSOs was relevant, then Di2, AXS, Power Meters and a host of other stuff wouldn’t exist.
If BSO didn't exist, then none of that stuff would've made it to market at all. the development money for Di2 comes from sales of non branded shimano derailleurs/brakes, chainsets etc made in their hundreds of thousands in Vietnam and Thailand.
All I know is that if a company brought out a small, light gearbox, with little to no drag, that was available on a wide range of bikes, that had normal trigger style and/or electronic shifting, and a 500%+ gear range…
In lots of ways capitalism is much like evolution, in that it uses "good enough" rather than "perfection" as it's template. why develop a gearbox to replicate what a mech and cassette do already?
What I don't get is why hasn't the Honda DH bike solution made it into production...All the benefits of both; in a box fixable at home, understandable componentry for the home mechanic, fewer new parts to make, less exposed to dirt and damage..?
Splined steer tube, not for me. I want things to move a little when I crash.
dangerousbrain - I thought in the context of this discussion hub gears were gearboxes?
ebikes will become more integrated. There never going to move to a universal motor mounting for example Everything will be sealed and dealer only.
i think wireless suspension will be a thing in a few years. select enduro or uphill changes the feel of the bike.
bike financing will be a thing soon surely. ie rent it for 3 years and then trade it in....
dangeourbrain
People have been working on things for years, that doesn’t mean they’re not rubbish or they’re actually going to happen.
Nicolai's new one is launching shortly, according to them. My only point was that there's lots of development and innovation happening in the gearbox space, as people try to improve the existing ones. If you don't see Shimano's patent as evidence of that, fair enough, but there are lots of other examples of peopel launching bikes and products. And e-bikes will only speed it along.
bike financing will be a thing soon surely. ie rent it for 3 years and then trade it in….
God yeah, the Subscription model is only just getting into it's stride.
nickc
If BSO didn’t exist, then none of that stuff would’ve made it to market at all. the development money for Di2 comes from sales of non branded Shimano derailleurs/brakes, chainsets etc made in their hundreds of thousands in Vietnam and Thailand.
Right, but that wasn't your original point - your point was that companies only develop things which they can sell on BSOs, which is not the case.
Cant imagine gearboxes on utility bikes, hubs are popular as they require little or no tooling, hub goes in where the hub goes, connect a shifter and your away.
A gearbox, even if it was the same price as a hub, would make the frames much more expensive to make. Even if it was a simple frame mounted hub in a bracket thats still more metal and more welds. And not of any benefit to that market. Same reason why hub motor e-bikes are popular, they do the same job as an expensive one, but at a lower price point.
thisisnotaspoon
I’m surprised Cannondale weren’t the first TBH, needle bearings and integrated stuff are their hallmarks.
Does seem like a very small step from a lefty with a lockout
regenerative breaking for ebikes
No more repairs!
dangerousbrain – I thought in the context of this discussion hub gears were gearboxes?
Ah fair do.
Nicolai’s new one is launching shortly, according to them.
But unless its a lot cheaper than the current one it'll still not drive any sort of market development even if it wakes you in the morning with a kiss and a cup or artisan espresso.
They're awesome bikes, loved mine, but it's not any sort of example of what's going to appear in the general market.
And e-bikes will only speed it along.
That I really can't see, why develop a gearbox and a motor plus all the gubbins to get them to play nicely if a million different mounting configurations when you could just develop a geared motor?
regenerative breaking for ebikes
No more repairs
I'm amazed it took this long for anyone to notice
What I don’t get is why hasn’t the Honda DH bike solution made it into production…All the benefits of both; in a box fixable at home, understandable componentry for the home mechanic, fewer new parts to make, less exposed to dirt and damage..?
I think the answer to that lies in this picture, that is not a production ready product! That looks insanely custom made and very, very expensive!
[img] 
[/img]
From here: http://downhill24.bike/inside-info-honda-rn01-silver-bullet/
nickc
Also related to this discussion….Why is a good percentage of this forum obsessed (and I use the word advisedly) with compatibility?
Why should bicycle bits in 2020 fit bicycles made in 2010 (or older) I’ve never really understood it.
More that you've misunderstood it. I don't think people have an issue with genuine progress - thru axles over QR, etc. People get pissed off with changes of standard that deliver no benefit. Like 15mm axles, when there was already a 20mm standard. 20mm disappeared, and now we have 15mm, but with torque caps to attempt to make it stiffer, the way 20mm was.
For folks who build, maintain and upgrade bikes, that sort of thing is a pain. To someone who buys a full bike off the shelf, it doesn't matter so much.
To be fair, a lot of the manufacturers do a pretty good job with compatibility - you can argue the benefits of boost, but most companies cane out with conversion kits and the like.
Super Boost Hubs
1.8 inch Steerer tubes
Wider Bottom Brackets as standard
Instant engagement hubs for all
Bigger everything.