There are a group of us who ride a couple of times a week, normally I organise it just because I do, normally I lead it because I have the best sense of direction & know the area best.
Last time out a new guy came along and took a fall - meaning MP's, ambulances, visits to the hospital etc etc (he's fine just concussed and a black eye but over it now).
One of the other guys was telling the emergency services that we are often out, have our own website etc etc and it suddenly struck me that it was sounding perilously close to an organised ride, which concerned me a bit that there could be some liability - has anybody come across this and is there a way round it?
There used to be a novel, now somewhat quaint and outdated concept. It involved everyone taking responsibility for their own actions.
I'd suggest an experiment with that 😉
or form a club and affiliate it to BC.
Binners, I couldn't agree more & luckily in this case thats what happened it was the fact we didnt know this guy, he was a friend of a friend and if he was of the sueing kind I was wndering where it could lead
Wouldn't a proper club need some kind of contract with T&Cs? An agreed oultine of the responsibilities of each party.
+1 for binners, tell him to do one if he tries.
I'm with Binners too
But if there's a bit of worry, just tell everyone else where you're riding and let them know you wouldn't mind some company
take the opportunity to do an MBL?
and if he was of the sueing kind I was wndering where it could lead
Nowhere.
He was out on his bike with some people his mate introduced him too, and he fell off.
needs a lot more than what you currently have to be considered liable for anything.
Gee-Jay - We had a similar set-up for years. It was all very informal. We posted up when we were riding etc. I never thought about 'liability' really. I suppose on account of being one myself. If anyone got hurt, it was bound to be me 😉
Our group is so small with 4 people and one of those is in Australia.
and consider...
By invitation only.
and +1 binners
We might respond.... South Gloucestershire MTB Group/Society type thing
https://sites.google.com/site/sgmtbonline/
Yeh, have made sure that everybody knows we are just mates & they are free to bring other mates along but thats all it is a mates ride. In this case we are fine, he is cool about it, it just caused me a few moments of concern.
Mates rides it is.
Not sure about setting up a club, I'm not really a clubby person - despite organising stuff. MBL course would be cool one for a periodwhen money and time are more available than now
I am more than a little distressed about the fact that people won't take responsibilty for their own actions.
OP, you can expect to hear from my solicitor regarding the stress you have caused me.
Aren't you covered for this type of thing if you join the CTC (individually and as a group)?
Check out the motorbike folks view on this. Apparently there was a case recently where a few friends met for a ride out and when the first lot of the group overtook a vehicle a straggler felt he'd be left behind if he didn't and went for the overtake anyway and got written off by a car coming the other way. IIRC the group "leader" (totally unofficial, just the lead rider who had a route in his head) was charged and considered responsible. I'll see if I can find the actual detials, it's undoubtedly not that simple but it has lead to most motorbike groups having to have guidelines to follow when any of the members meet including having lead and tail riders, skills audits etc. madness.
D_S - cheque is in the post & honestly the light wasn't red officer 🙂
[url= http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2012/January/jan0612-five-cleared-over-ride-out-deaths/_/R-EPI-134483 ]Here's the link I think.[/url]
We ([url= http://www.lvis.org.uk ]LVIS[/url]) are very similar but much bigger - well over 50 people now - no rules, no official positions, no fees but I'm sure most people outside think we look like a "club" regardless. We don't have regular organised rides as such but we do have weekends away and so on which could be argued to be organised rides even though it's really just a bunch of mates.
Simple answer has been to affiliate with CTC or British Cycling (varies depending on how much racing people are doing year by year) to get the legal cover, just in case... Sad that it could be necessary but there you go and it's peace of mind for me and other organisers.
the sweary northerners could be called a club......not that you would want to join them, or even be associated with them...... 😉
numbers can vary from half a dozen for winter night rides, up to 20 odd for [s]drinking[/s] biking weekends away.
coffeeking, that's not good. I hope that's mainly down to it involving motor vehicles and insured riders. T&C's etc.
I'd not be worried. We had an informal internet based group for years (Woburn Crankers) there were never any fees, rules or indeed anything that suggested any form of organisation other than arranging to meet. No worse than meeting a work mate for a ride?
+1 for what Binners said.
We should promote self responsibility.
Indeed, I think in any case you'd be hard pushed to find a time when it would become an issue but maybe if you're inviting new people with unknown skills it serves to be sure it's well known that whoever is in the "leading" role checks the person is aware it's going to be tricky and takes the appropriate responsibility for themselves. Mad that it has to come to this but what would be argued in court, I dare say though I'm not a legal professional by any means, is that the person who originally said they were capable had no way of knowing if they were capable and so the "leader" accepts final responsibility. I think that if it's aregular meet on a regular ride no-one could argue anything.
+1 for what Binners said.We should promote self responsibility.
Totally, but it won't help you if someone takes it to court as they can simply claim they were not qualified to know whether they were capable and wrongly assumed they were, as above.
In this case the guy was very fast up the hills so we assumed he was fine on the, not very steep, downhills. I think he was a little bit over his comfort level on speed as we had done more techincal before (once again not very techie).
A bit scary noticing a person missing in the dark and finding them not moving and out cold 200m up the track. It was the fact that it was on Army Land and some of the comments made could have lead to assumption it was more organised than it was.
As coffeeking says any decision to sue is actually nothing to do with the rest of us.
Anyway all's well that ends well, he's fine, not into doing anything about it and happy to be the butt of our humour for a bit
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It just made me wonder
PS lucky he had a helmet on [TJ 🙂 ]
Just who are you going to sue if its not a club. To be a club you need to act like a club - that means you will need some form of membership, fees, rules etc.
Without those your not a club, just mates organising rides via modern communication ie social media.
10 years ago you organised rides with mates by phoning them up, now you post it on your web / forum etc. Your still mates going out for a ride.
If you start to make it complicated and like a club your then likely to end up being treated like one.
Teh motorcycle case they were rightly cleared.
You only have the usual duty / responsibility that anyone owes another remember of the public - if you are a club advertising guided rides then its a higher standard.
No point in suing someone with no insurance anyway
Teh motorcycle case they were rightly cleared.
Only on lack of evidence though, not as a clear "this doesn't belong here, it's personal responsibility" as you'd hope. Worrying.
Not worrying at all. Thats the lack of evidence - there was no evidence they had any responsibility for the dead mans actions or had been negligent in any way
There is no way on earth in this sort of case you could be found negligent unless you did something very daft indeed - you only have the duty of care of a member of the public - you are not professing any special skill or knowledge.
Do you need a website or any other club like paraphernalia?
Our regular Tuesday night ride just meets at the village post office, anyone can come, very rarely does anyone actually plan the ride we just agree to head off and ride somewhere between us then go.
Sometimes you arrive and your on your own, think the largest group we had once was 14. You never know who is going to be there. Sometimes we do ride further afield and sort of organise it via the phone or e-mail, but invariably someone doesn't know or doesn't get the message and turns up at the PO to find no one else there, it's no big deal, it's just a ride.
An action was raised by one cyclist against another rider in a non-club group in Scotland a few years ago:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7232182.stm
Maybe put a declaimer on website/posts. something like this:
[b]Note, we are not a club, just a group of folk who meet up for rides, ride at your own risk(but please wear a helmet) [/b]
scottfizz, that I did the following morning 🙂
Kcr, that scottish was more about someone not controlling their bike and making another rider crash, or not as the case proved.
I would if you don't openly advertise a invite to attend and don't take any subs off people you are just mates and not a club.
But the "if you break your leg, don't come running after me" line is well worth adding.