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You do get good at doing tests, I find it much easier to put out big power on mountains than the trainer, I guess it's because you can see a physical goal (the top) there's interest and I quite like to hurt myself uphill on the road.
Also how your muscles are used (recruitment, firing patterns etc.) are different up hills to flat so power can be quite different.
Jeez, some big numbers here
When I started racing few years ago (aged 45), the number was a lot smaller! I gained a bit of power and lost a bit of weight.
Jamz, if you look at the table posted by wilbert you will see that on a Watts/kg basis, reading ACROSS a row, power halves from 5s to 1 min and again to 20 min (5min is an outlier so I ignore it). a rider's characteristic power profile is how close one is to this flat profile. Sprinters will have better 5s relative to 20 min (\), most of us will be the other way(/). GC contenders tend to be flat (-) and have about 6 W/kg at 20 min.
Any value you measure is a start. Riding will improve it. Riding lots will improve it more. Then hard training will improve it again. But most people spend all their time fretting about their 20 minute efforts, but these count for little in a sprint at the end of a race where points are concerned.
Jamz, if you look at the table posted by wilbert you will see that on a Watts/kg basis, reading ACROSS a row, power halves from 5s to 1 min and again to 20 min (5min is an outlier so I ignore it). a rider's characteristic power profile is how close one is to this flat profile. Sprinters will have better 5s relative to 20 min (\), most of us will be the other way(/). GC contenders tend to be flat (-) and have about 6 W/kg at 20 min.
Interesting, thanks! Looks like I need to improve my 5 second power.
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With regards the high figures some people give (not suggesting anyone here is wrong) - a lot of people miss the 5 minutes maximal interval before they do their 20min test. The protocol should be:
-Warm up
-5min max effort
-10min easy riding
-20min TT
And then 95% of the power you average for the 20min interval. Your FTP is equivalent to the power you can sustain in a steady state for a 1hour TT. Missing the 5 minute max interval, or not going hard enough, will not provide an accurate estimation of your 1 hour power.
FTP threads are becoming the new bike weight threads.
Just to balance some of the big numbers here, mine is 141 at 63.5kg so 2.22w/kg bang on the average recreational cyclists ftp according to coggans table. And that's exactly what I am 🙂
An FTP test is just an indication or marker is not a real time figure. As @TiRed said power profile & mean maximum is where it counts as these are numbers from actual riding or racing. You can have a lower FTP W/kg than the next man but the one who is better trained at holding those numbers will always be king.
Looks like I need to improve my 5 second power.
You aren't the only one! Mine under-reads by 4 Watts/kg 🙁 . A sprinter I am not. I prescribe 20/40's which is 20 second full efforts with 40 second recovery. To exhaustion. If I get past 12 I am doing well.
You aren't the only one! Mine under-reads by 4 Watts/kg . A sprinter I am not. I prescribe 20/40's which is 20 second full efforts with 40 second recovery. To exhaustion. If I get past 12 I am doing well.
Sounds delightful - just what the doctor ordered! I'll give it a go next week.
An FTP test is just an indication or marker is not a real time figure. As @TiRed said power profile & mean maximum is where it counts as these are numbers from actual riding or racing. You can have a lower FTP W/kg than the next man but the one who is better trained at holding those numbers will always be king.
Unless you're a time trialist... and we all know that's the race of truth 😉
I got up Alp d'Huez last summer averaging about 3.85W/kg and it took me about 56minutes.
That's somewhat lower than my FTP figure. Generating FTP for an hour in the real world is flipping difficult.
Then your FTP is wrong 😉
A pro's 20 min 'test' just before doing a fairly chunky ride. Got to love ten Dam https://www.strava.com/activities/466510725/overview
Have a look at his laps..
It could well be knowing how reliable Stages power meters are 😉
Only done one FTP test using a Quark PM, 319w for 20mins giving 303w with 75kg = 4w/kg. I race in Grand Vet and finish in the upper end, need more power and skill to reliably win stuff though.
unless you're a time triallist
then your FTP is wrong
And that's partly the problem with it. Things like the 20 min test, it's just an approximation. The protocol doesn't specify any riding condition either. An hour's climb or time trial, there will be lots of variability around your average power value, always going a bit over and a bit under. May be harder or easier than churning out 20 min on the turbo, will depend on the individual.
Thanks for all of the contributions and debate so far; really useful and adds a lot of context.
I think my view is that it doesn't really matter and knowing the figures isn't going to make me faster but as a baseline to work from and to judge improvement it will be really helpful.
I'll let you know in a few weeks when I test again!
Dogsby
Like i said its useful for your own progress. One other thing ive found using my power profile (off strava) is i am getting better at pacing. So i know roughly how much i should push for say a 8min segment. For me generally i can push slightly more in the real world than on the turbo. Could be pm calibration, or the fact there is more to distract from the pain.
The 20minute test is an approximation, but its done in a controlled environment and its for setting your power zones for training and measuring progress. If your FTP goes up over a period then its resonably safe to say you've got fitter. That will translate into the real world - whether you can hit better or worse numbers on the road than on the turbo.
then your FTP is wrong
When I said 3.85w/kg to get up AdH in 56 minutes I didn't say I was going all out either 😉 It was still somewhat unpleasant....
This is more controversial than the discussing wages thread........
The 0.95 is a killer, being a % and taking away proportionately more as your output increases or not.
73kg and 334W = 3.58W/kg. To get to 5W/kg I need to get to 370W gross and drop to 70kg - ain't gonna happen! 4.8, better bike handling and racecraft will have to do.
^spot the maths error
I guess the main purpose of knowing your FTP is making your structured training more effective.
I know my FTP and I know it's not the reason I get my arse handed to me in Cat 4 races.
Eddie Fiola - Member
It also depends how heavy you are.Mines 330 and I'm 66kg
I would not question your power ... would definitely question the 66kg (10st 3lb) though.
If you said 76kg I would raise an eyebrow ... closer to 80kg would have been my guess though.
As njee said...
10 seconds on Google shows Eddie's identity.
I'd not doubt his numbers.
330w and 66kg isn't too astounding. It's good for an amateur but possible with training. That's close to what I'd be aiming at if I didn't like cake so much!
Doesn't tell the full picture though does it.
It's good for an amateur but possible with training
Indeed, I'm not far away now (305/67), but what is his 5 second power? 😈 Short Term Muscular Endurance is what will win races. Can you break away and stay away? Than means a few minutes in the red zone. He can.
Basic training gets to the point where all engines are good enough to not get dropped in races, but it's when the hammer goes down that mine is found wanting 👿 . That, and the sprint at the end - I'm not alone in this feature, most training is aimed at tuning the engine for FTPs.
Off-road, skills not fitness are what hold me back. I'm in awe of the lap times for cross and mtb for riders who I know I can compete with on road.
Had a little dabble in cat 4 last year and can confirm that if you have good power but lack race craft and a sprint then you're in for a frustrating race!
IIRC the shorter end of coggans power curve is distorted by A lot of the data coming from track sprinters who specialize in short huge power outputs. The only real point of working out your FTP is to establish training zones and to measure progress ( however the best indicator of performance ......is performance). The W pKG is More important for pros as they will often race in the mountains but it is much lesss relevant on flatter ground . That's why you won't see Quintana racing the classics anytime soon and why Wiggins has put on 16kg to enable him to compete on the track. Testers are much less bothered with w/kg (unless it's a hilly TT ) and much more interested in power output and aerodynamics , the latter can make a significant difference to your time in a TT.
I've just nearly killed myself doing the 2 x 8 CTS test. 🙁
with an average of 232 average over both sessions.
so being 69kg that's puts me at 3.3W/Kg.
Although I have read that my power should be factored by 0.9 for the 2 x 8 test as opposed to the .95 factor for the 20 minute test.
Is this right? and do I factor it before calculating zones.
Please bear with me I'm new to this stuff 😳
0.9 for 8 minute and 0.95 for 20 is what I thought too, that's what TrainerRoad use anyway...
Yes, multiply your average for the two 8min efforts by 0.9 to get an estimate of your FTP. It's the FTP you then use to calculate your zones.
cheers guys, off to do some calculating.
Wattbike seem to offer the online one, are they all the same?
My understanding is yes (0.9) for the 2x8 test and assuming you had the prescribed 10 minute break between the 8 minute hard intervals.
And yes, you need to factor it before working out your training zones.
assuming you had the prescribed 10 minute break between the 8 minute hard intervals.
yip I did, although 10 hours would have been better 🙄
Not sure what you mean by the "online" one?
Not sure what you mean by the "online" one?
the one on the wattbike website, just plug your FTP and THR and it sets your 6 zones
[url= https://wattbike.com/uk/functional-threshold-power ]This one[/url]
Quite a few different versions but those zones are pretty much what I use.
Quite a few different versions but those zones are pretty much what I use.
cheers, that'll do for me
Strava reckons 2.89w/kg, I may as well just throw myself under a bus.
Edit: just found a 2.98 - still crap
Do you set zones to indoor or outdoor FTP? Suppose it depends where you do most of your training? I get another 5% away from the turbo.
Does normalised power figure anywhere in calculations?
Normalised power is just a way of measuring overall how hard a ride was. You shouldn't have to normalise your effort for an FTP test as it should be a reasonably steady effort (i.e no coasting, cafe stops, traffic lights, etc).
The Joe Friel Power Meter Handbook does a good job of describing this stuff.
Cheers, makes sense...
Did my first ever ftp test the other day. 331w average over 20mins, giving me an ftp of 314w (95%) and a power to weight of 3.91w/kg. I've been doing mainly a base building program these last couple of months inside (along with long Z2 rides outside) but I'm just moving onto the second phase of threshold turbo work (this is where the hard work really starts 😮 ) so this combined with some lard loss (80kg atm, hopefully get down to 75-76 by spring) should see that w/kg increase.
Interesting stuff for a geek like me...I bought a Turbo Trainer a few months ago in an attempt to keep my fitness over winter rather than for a specific purpose or event. However, I'm also planning to go to the Alps in September and fancied having a crack at a few TdF climbs including ADH. When I bought the TT, I dabbled with a couple of programmes including Veloreality and I bought their ADH video for comparison purposes.
Per Zwifts' 20 minute FTP test, my output is around 274W and I weigh ~90kg so I'm underwhelmingly "moderate" (3.1w/kg) according to the chart Wilburt posted. In my mind, I had hoped to crack ADH in under an hour...which would seem impossible now unless I can improve my FTP by 20%.
When I last used the Veloreality app, it recorded a time of 1hr 9min for the ADH which is impressively accurate compared at Alex Simmons chart!
I think my biggest issue tackling ADH will be the altitude unless I've been staying above >1500 m I'll suffer badly.
Despite my initial misquote of the Alex Simmons chart I have found it to be accurate with myself and a few friends who's w/kg I loosely know and have ridden ADH with.
I don't think you'll have a problem with altitude btw its under 2000m so unless you are unusally susceptible shouldnt be an issue, you can continue on to some higher cols but even then I think most people are ok until above 2500 metres or so and the highest in the region is c.2200m.
We also seem to be being a bit harsh on ourselves, that chart covers pro riders so I would expect most people not getting paid to ride a bike to be nearer the bottom than top.
I don't think you'll have a problem with altitude btw its under 2000m so unless you are unusally susceptible shouldnt be an issue
I live a sea level and run out of puff very quickly at ~1000m until I've had a couple of days and nights at/above that altitude. Luckily, I also live at the bottom of a couple of ski-hills so can ride from sea level to ~1040m when the weather improves 🙂