What3words not suitable for safety critical applications

Why is lat/long particularly bad for mountain rescue?
Only asking as my watch can (with two button presses) display and save this.
Never had to call MR, but I had naively assumed that if on my own and injured I could use the watch like this, and the phone as a phone.
(Also chance of phone screen damage etc)

Yes, it’s a rather sub-par solution

No single system is fault free. Most people don't know what a Lat/Long is and TBH it appears that MRT and rescue services don't trust people to give accurate ones in an emergency anyway, even Find-phone needs permission and a working phone, street names and road numbers are confusable and similarly numbered in geographical areas. As @franksinatra pointed out, it's just one part of group of systems that's used.

It’s call it what you want if it makes you feel better but. It’s copying someone else’s IP and then opensourcing it. That’s not security purposes -thata just a handy attempt at defence of the situation.

Its not copying someone IP any more than every cad software or spreadsheet or is a copy of IP of whoever did the first ever Cad, spreadsheet etc. It was independently redeveloped. We don't have software patents because trying to patent a algorithm is trying to patent maths.

They have had someone show the weakness in their software and used aggressive legal methods to try and hide it because it spoils their marketing front.

Why is lat/long particularly bad for mountain rescue?

I don't have a platform to easily convert it to a usable plot on the map, in particular to overlay to OS and get a GR. I am sure such a platform does exist but it is not in routine use. Lat/Long is also precious about space, hyphens, colons etc so lots of opportunity for error from caller, police call handler or from me.

When I enter OS GR or W3W in our system it automatically drops a pin on the OS map. Doing so with Lat/Long will take time and I'd prefer to use that time coordinating the response.

drink.verification.can

As an aside, there are some interesting trials of technology which picks up a phone which has no signal but is sending out data as it tries to find a signal. If we can get that small enough to stick on a drone it will be amazing in poor signal areas.

I've wondered whether you could get a nano-cell on a drone to give you temporary cover which would enable you to not only find them but communicate with them...

There’s a workaround for W3W. It’s very unlikely you will find 2 sets of confusable pairs adjacent to each other, so if you give the W3W combo in 2 spots next to each other (i.e that are 3m apart), you should be pretty confident in the location. Not going to work if you’re unable to move, but oftentimes that’s not the case.

You can do it without moving on the app. MIght not be too easy if your alone, freezing and in pain but its possible and still easier than some alternatives in that scenario.

Sounds a bit harsh to pick on a handful of examples where it has failed when it has been used been used countless times without issue.

I've used it to rescue my son and his mates after a mechanical on more than one occasion. It is a pretty good alternative to "you know that path we went down that day", "the one by the farmers field", "the one with the trees at the end" etc.

Its not copying someone IP any more than every cad software or spreadsheet or is a copy of IP of whoever did the first ever Cad, spreadsheet etc. It was independently redeveloped. We don’t have software patents because trying to patent a algorithm is trying to patent maths.

Some jurisdictions (the US in particular) do directly allow software patents. Even in the UK there are mechanisms by which software can be patented. Whether this algorithm is patentable will depend on how novel and inventive it is - the same would have been true for the first-ever s/sheet or cad package, or one that does something special; generally now those types of software recognise that the need for interoperability is greater than the need to exclude competition.

However, even if it is not patentable - if someone has used the W3W API to help reverse engineer the words/algorithm it uses then its a breach of their T&Cs and they shouldn't be surprised if commercial companies decide to enforce their T&Cs. Someone could make an "other3words" app that uses the same concept but results in different words and the question then is patentability (unless they've literally copied the code) but if they make "same3words" and its used the W3W app or Api to generate those same 3 words they are on tricky ground.

I’ve wondered whether you could get a nano-cell on a drone to give you temporary cover which would enable you to not only find them but communicate with them…

The drone stuff is all quite new and really really interesting. Predictably it is all about weight v battery trade off. You can attach anything you want but if it is heavy you reduce the flying time dramatically. I like your idea but suspect the phone companies will make it very hard to implement. Knowing where someone is it the main thing and the newest drone has a speaker on it so we can have one way comms, I expect it will be used mainly to tell people to not move, just sit down and wait for us!

Why is lat/long particularly bad for mountain rescue?

Other than people transposing digits ...
There is no such thing as a unique lat/lon because the earth is not a perfect sphere.
Depending where you are you can be hundreds of metres to kilometers out depending what datum is used.

The drone stuff is all quite new and really really interesting. Predictably it is all about weight v battery trade off.

Issue free lures to hikers then use a trained raptor... 😉

The recent incident I was was involved with I believe the caller asked for ambulance, we/I gave the call handler Grid and what three words (they requested WTW) and they got the air ambulance on the way. They alerted Mountain Rescue rocked up later and coastguard winched the casualty.

@big_n_daft - I think you've illustrated frank's point nicely there. You will get help (barring any stevexc type oddities) either way - but the temptation to think - someone is hurt call the Ambulance might not be the fastest way to get the best help. The ambulance service call handler's temptation is to deploy ambulance service resources and do their best to help. They'll call "their" air ambulance, rather than contacting kinloss to get CG helo which can winch a casualty so doesn't need to land. Round here, they'll deploy their SORT (I think similar to HART in England?) who will mobilise their team from quite far away with no local knowledge, and bring an all-terrain-vehicle, or send the nearest standard ambulance where two people then walk in with as much kit as they can carry before calling for backup (assuming, of course, they can find you).

I think most of us get that Police (MRT) is who you call when very remote and "in the mountains". Trail centre - a mile from the nearest road? Local woods in an area quite far from the mountains? And then as someone who occasionally organises events in remote spots I think it is worth asking yourself who would we call here (casualty back at car park = ambulance; casualty out on the hill path - might depend on injuries and how accessible).

Poly, that is spot on. Often the ambulance service will only call MRT when they have exhausted their own options. Going via the Police / MRT route you will get MRT mobilised quicker. This situation is improving and ambulance are getting better at calling us sooner but they are very keen to use SORT as much as possible, even if this isn't the best or closet resource for the job.

Advanced Mobile Location is great but it will tell you where the caller is, not where the casualty is. Often they will be the same - but there are times when the caller has had to walk/ride a considerable way to get signal - or perhaps in a panic has called a third party first (at ~13/14 my son called his mother rather than the ambulance when his friend knocked himself out in a crash).

Why is lat/long particularly bad for mountain rescue?

Echoing what Steve said.
There is no one lat/long, you would need to also communicate what datum is being used. Wikipedia
It's most likely you are using WGS 84, but do you know that and does the person at the other end of the phone.
And I'm plucking this as vague memory from when I got my Garmin and was messing around with gpsbabel and Google maps and I think set the datum as a pref on the Garmin because that seemed to be the most common or what Google maps used. But I had to Google to get the datum name now.

They’ll call “their” air ambulance, rather than contacting kinloss to get CG helo which can winch a casualty so doesn’t need to land.

The CG wouldn't be able to winch the casualty without assistance in this case. Air ambulance was there in 30mins +10 getting to the point where the casualty was, MRT was another 30 mins before their first people got to the casualty. CG was initiated by air ambulance. It arrived after the MRT.

All the helo support was on the edge for flying conditions.

In this case it all worked to get the casualty off the hill.

You'll need to watch the telly to get the rest

My view is that relying on one system to get a location is a fundamental error. Not mobilising because you need the location from a proprietary system and no other source is verging on negligence.

Well, I’m shocked to hear it’s absolutely not flawless.

You will get help (barring any stevexc type oddities) either way

As they ingrain the system into emergency services and remove the choices then these oddities will start becoming the norm.

The situation you describe is not the fault of W3W, it is entirely the fault of the control room training or process.

So what did the control room person/process do BEFORE?
Indeed why do we need a control room person (even a minimally trained one) if we have w3w???

Much as I know why (you have explained) I doubt the person signing the contract is going to actually consult you...

I don’t have a platform to easily convert it to a usable plot on the map, in particular to overlay to OS and get a GR. I am sure such a platform does exist but it is not in routine use.

Literally hundreds ... here is a 1mx1m square (Gisburn Forest car park) this uses WGS84 datum that is the same used by your phone.

https://gridreferencefinder.com/os.php#gr=SD7447255815|Point_s_A|1
Grid Reference
SD 74472 55815
Grid Reference (6 figure)
SD744558
X (Easting) , Y (Northing)
374472 , 455815
Latitude , Longitude (decimal)
53.997732 , -2.3908960
Latitude , Longitude (degs, mins, secs)
53°59′52″N , 002°23′27″W
What3Words : bitters.dumplings.courier
Address (near) :
The Hub, The 8, Easington, Ribble Valley, Lancashire, North West England, England, BB7 4TS, United Kingdom
Postcode (nearest) : BB7 4TS

...And we're off...

As they ingrain the system into emergency services and remove the choices

Any evidence of emergency services being forced to use W3W only? Apart from in your head?

I don’t have a platform to easily convert it to a usable plot on the map, in particular to overlay to OS and get a GR. I am sure such a platform does exist but it is not in routine use.

You can put lat longs straight into google, both decimal and degrees. Don't even need to be in Google maps

nickc

Any evidence of emergency services being forced to use W3W only? Apart from in your head?

Either forced or refusing ... however given the business model for W3W and stated aims to investors then forced seems to be the most likely.

Why is lat/long particularly bad for mountain rescue?
Only asking as my watch can (with two button presses) display and save this.
Never had to call MR, but I had naively assumed that if on my own and injured I could use the watch like this, and the phone as a phone.
(Also chance of phone screen damage etc)

Most navigation and/or "describing where you are" scenarios require some form of knowledge from the person making the call. W3W was (or at least was marketed as) a way of avoiding that as in "any idiot can use it".

Lat/Long, you need to know the datum system, there's a very high chance of transposing digits, most people have no idea how to access that info on their phone anyway.
OS grid reference coordinates are good if delivered by a GPS (with the OS basemap fitted!), less reliable if read out while holding an A3 map that's flapping around in the breeze (and if the latter, you actually have to have fairly decent map reading skills).
Postcode is fine in urban areas (although if you have an accident on the side of a road you're unlikely to know the postcode without asking), rural areas can be very hit and miss where a postcode can refer to a much larger area.

A friend had to call an ambulance on a road ride a while ago when one of her riding mates crashed on a descent. She tried to give them a W3W but the operator seemed clueless about it and kept asking for a postcode as it was the only thing the ambulance satnav could understand. On a random road in the Trough of Bowland with no buildings around, she couldn't give a postcode.

With W3W, assuming the person making the call can move by 3+ metres, surely you could just give 2 or 3 references next to each other?

That said, I'm not a fan of W3W either because of their marketing and I can see a point where, having forced MR and emergency services into using it, they suddenly start to charge for it.

however given the business model for W3W and stated aims to investors then forced seems to be the most likely.

They’re not being forced.

Hopefully that post above containing a crossreference from a 3 word location to an explicit location in another reference won't cause any legal threats.

It is against their T+C and a breach of their IP.

and I can see a point where, having forced MR and emergency services into using it, they suddenly start to charge for it.

Emergency services aren't being forced into using it.

A friend had to call an ambulance on a road ride a while ago when one of her riding mates crashed on a descent. She tried to give them a W3W but the operator seemed clueless about it and kept asking for a postcode as it was the only thing the ambulance satnav could understand. On a random road in the Trough of Bowland with no buildings around, she couldn’t give a postcode.

This should give a postcode if your phone knows its location and has data:

https://www.whatsmypostcode.com/

I was in a serious accident last week involving a head injury. I had no clue where I was (even though I commuted down the road 1000s of times) and there was no way I could have given a grid reference. If I had had w3w I could have just about done that thankfully i was with someone who guided the emergency services to me.

OS grid reference coordinates are good if delivered by a GPS (with the OS basemap fitted!), less reliable if read out while holding an A3 map that’s flapping around in the breeze (and if the latter, you actually have to have fairly decent map reading skills).

Or just read them off the phone app. No map needed.

Emergency services aren’t being forced into using it.

Do you have any proof of that?

Given you don't give a toss the NHS were forced to use the propriety system for the vaccine SMS's I can't see why you'd care.

It seems you are all for forcing the NHS/Emergency services into using stuff by removing the options or perhaps it's just you can't wait for the NHS to be sold off to US companies ???

Either forced or refusing … however given the business model for W3W and stated aims to investors then forced seems to be the most likely.

That's what worries me about W3W, they are set up as a business with investors that will want a return on that soon. I cannot see any other way for those investments to be recouped other than charging for access to their service, either by charging for each request or for downloading the app. The danger point will be if/when the emergency services switch to relying on it as their main location tool, that will then give W3W the green light to monetise the system. If that point is reached then I hope there is legal protections to stop the Emergency Services essentially being held over a barrel when people in distress quote 3 words at the operator but they cannot access the system due to monetary issues. I know that is a worse-case scenario but it is possible. Hopefully some enterprising student/hobbyist will recognise that and come up with an open/free alternative that is either similarly unique or links into a few current systems to remove any possible errors.

As always you have to look behind the product to get the whole picture.

Another MR person here and we had an incident yesterday that demonstrates a lot of the quirks and potential pitfalls of W3W and how location information gets handled. Caller had phoned 999 for an ambulance and given a location description, I think the ambulance control call handler may have then generated a W3W (possibly based on postcode - which can cover big areas). The ambulance crew got sent W3W and description, and being familiar with the patch realised the W3W was guff and went straight to location. They also asked control to activate MR and that was triggered via SARCall, but with only the W3W location, which instantly looked wrong as you can't fall from rocks in the middle of flat fields. Incident Controller then struggled to get through to control room to get the rest of location info (ie description), which we got just before I set off in the wrong direction in a vehicle. Also meanwhile the air ambulance (who probably self tasked) was hovering over the (wrong) W3W location until redirected by the ambulance crew on the ground.*

As said - all in all it's better to phone the police (who also love W3W btw) as they take the information and pass it straight on with no 'translation'. Tends to work more smoothly when that happens and the right resources turn up when and where they are needed. W3W is already way too embedded to roll back at all - so we just need to have good ways of cross checking locations and try and make sure call handler training covers what it needs to.

* I had a camera in my face for that one - so now everyone will be able to enjoy my scrabbling in my pockets to find a mask and take a handover from a paramedic after running up a hill 😉

Emergency services aren’t being forced into using it.

Fair enough, I was going off what seems to be a commonly occurring / oft-repeated comment on the topic.

@stevextc, mate, get your head sorted, it's full of nonsense.

Do you have any proof of that?

Well, they’re not I’ve spent a good bit of time in the EOC the last year and was on standby to head down last night for a possible incident. They can use W3W, postcode, OS Grid reference and longitude latitude. They are not forced to use one system, they can choose from the options.

Hopefully some enterprising student/hobbyist will recognise that and come up with an open/free alternative that is either similarly unique

there are open systems that are similarly unique

indeed the patent report I read even references one as prior art from about 6-7 years prior

and that ignores the other prior art and not non-obvious claims made such as dividing up the map/globe in to arbitrary sized boxes and assigning unique comibinations to those boxes.

there's even a free open one in goggle maps, that just simply has not been pushed whatsoever (although it tends to show for waypoints in google maps rather than dropping a pin, or in the "what's here" option)

but sadly the Scafell Pike flip-flop hikers that can't get back in time for Corrie/Eastenders, won;t have the intelligence to dictate 6 words/numbers using the NATO alphabet, but can handle 3 words that often make funny sounding combinations.

@stevextc, mate, get your head sorted, it’s full of nonsense.

You stated that (after a year of preparation) there was only one system that GP's and pharmacies were allowed to use as a SMS gateway... and you don't seem to care how that occurred or who decided it or how suddenly after a year it was such a panic it had to be single sourced from the only company on the procurement list.

It doesn't even seem to have crossed your mind to ask who made that decision and what clinical expertise they had and why hundreds of better qualified companies were not put on the VIP list or for that matter why companies that make ventilators or PPE were excluded from bidding but a vacuum cleaner company not only got put on the VIP list but was calling the PM directly for some tax readjustments.

Now you personally don't have to care (or perhaps you have shares and do) but that doesn't give you the right to criticise people who do care and infer they need their head sorting or any other euphemism you care to use.

Edited. I'm not responding to you anymore

andytherocketeer

there are open systems that are similarly unique

There are loads and have been for years... its not a new or unique concept.
The only way this can possibly make money is by making it non optional - that is the only novel thing about it and the fact they refuse to publish the lists. (RM postcodes are proprietary but you can purchase the list and use it)

That’s what worries me about W3W, they are set up as a business with investors that will want a return on that soon. I cannot see any other way for those investments to be recouped other than charging for access to their service, either by charging for each request or for downloading the app.

I doubt their business model is to make money from emergency service use. That's just smart marketing - gets stories in the press (free advertising) and adoption rates up, credibility but surely their aim is for delivery services etc? Especially in parts of the world where postcodes are less helpful than the UK - but even here:

This should give a postcode if your phone knows its location and has data:
https://www.whatsmypostcode.com//blockquote >
That's obviously created by someone who's never been outside a city! Once you get rural postcodes cover huge areas. Here, even in a town with 10-15k people my house with postcode AND house number either brings you right to the door or dumps you 100 yards away with a flight of stairs and no signs to direct you to where I live depending on your sat-nav. If I have a heart attack I'm hoping that the Ambulance don't use the same sat-nav/post code database as Uber!

 

The CG wouldn’t be able to winch the casualty without assistance in this case.

I look forward to seeing this on the TV.

Air ambulance was there in 30mins +10 getting to the point where the casualty was, MRT was another 30 mins before their first people got to the casualty.

But you don't know how much time was wasted whilst the ambulance service called the police to ask for the MRT - maybe only a few minutes, but often its surprisingly long (same goes for calling coastguard when its on cliff/beach).

CG was initiated by air ambulance. It arrived after the MRT.

Maybe, and each situation is different, if the first 999 call had gone to police then they'd have initiated the CG getting them there sooner.

All the helo support was on the edge for flying conditions.

That's certainly how the TV show will present it - doesn't make good TV to be a routine operation! However, I'd say if it was marginal for the CG helo, most air ambulances would already be grounded.

My view is that relying on one system to get a location is a fundamental error. Not mobilising because you need the location from a proprietary system and no other source is verging on negligence.

I agree, I do a bit of stuff at sea and whenever I give a location try to give Lat/Long AND a distance/bearing from a landmark because if I jumble a digit or the person typing it in misses a minus sign it makes a big difference. (It also helps anyone else on VHF as "3 mies SW of XYZ" is a lot more meaningful to the person who might come to your aid than some a GPS location - I have overheard Belfast Coastguard ask a caller on VHF for a W3W location when they were struggling to understand a call on the radio).

Drac

Well, they’re not I’ve spent a good bit of time in the EOC the last year and was on standby to head down last night for a possible incident. They can use W3W, postcode, OS Grid reference and longitude latitude. They are not forced to use one system, they can choose from the options.

From the 1/2 of the conversation I listened to and the filling in by the Tom paramedic/guide it didn't seem like the SWAS (if that is who he called) had any choice in using any other system.

The only possibility would seem to be the operator refusing on their own bat because they got out of bed the wrong side but given the seriousness of the injury that seems far fetched... but what Tom said they told him is they didn't have the facility to use anything else. (Equally they may have been untrained to use any other system... but the outcome is the same)

Perhaps a half way and the operator was told to "strongly encourage"?

Ultimately though does it matter? Tom was forced to walk to get a signal and download W3W before they would process the call any further.

I'm not normally one to condone people calling the ambulance at the drop of a hat... its not like they have spare resources and somewhere someone is lying in a ditch with a fractured spine whilst the ambulance is treating someone with a minor scrape or broken arm etc. who could have made it to a minor injuries clinic by themselves or with friends but in this case a spine board and paramedics were absolutely required...

It’s entirely possible the call taker got stuck in the algorithm they follow, there is no reason to stick asking for a postcode as people tend to know much more than their home address. I can’t possible comment on the rationale beyond that without more information.  I will say though as someone who deals with investigations, perceptions of what happened by all parties are very different to what went on. There is also often a series of small events that lead to something not going well.

The basic question to ask is if someone doesn’t know exactly where they are is where they started and where they were heading, last place they knew they past. MR can bounce a txt to mobiles which when responded to can provide a location.

I doubt their business model is to make money from emergency service use.

I doubt that as well as it's bad publicity but once they have the market to squeeze who knows?

That’s just smart marketing – gets stories in the press (free advertising) and adoption rates up, credibility but surely their aim is for delivery services etc? Especially in parts of the world where postcodes are less helpful than the UK – but even here:

They don't need stories in the press as such... Channel4ventures is a lead investor (swapping TV advertising for equity)

Channel 4 Ventures offers high potential brands the opportunity to accelerate their growth through TV advertising, in exchange for an equity stake in the business.

https://www.channel4ventures.com/

My objection is forcing someone to download a closed proprietary system in return for medical assistance.
Whichever way I look at that is is just wrong.

They can target the voluntary/emergency services and if they say no they can publicise to the donors that they are refusing to use a free system... again just wrong.

Their refusal to share the algorithm doesn't bode well... especially given the tie in with the UK emergency and volunteer services because this is their only way to get people to download it.
After this who knows...Tesco or Aldi may sign up (or not) but it is leveraging the emergency services to establish their base that I can't feel is right.

 

I'm not a supporter of W3W but at least it's replaced what I understood to be the previous ambulance service default of postcode.

It doesn't surprise me that one ambulance controller insisted on W3W, but that doesn't mean it's a policy. Every job has its incompetents and mavericks as well as people who just have a bad day and get things wrong.

That’s certainly how the TV show will present it – doesn’t make good TV to be a routine operation! However, I’d say if it was marginal for the CG helo, most air ambulances would already be grounded.

The wind was fluctuating, the air ambulance got in at the top after thinking about it for a bit. They apparently tried to move closer and the wind changed their mind. The casualty was below some cliffs about 100m downslope and it was quite calm there. Issue for CG was wind above the escarpment for their hover. However they got the winchman in and the plan changed to winch much to the relief of the MRT who would have had two bad options to haul out.

Great article on the front page about W3W now:
https://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/is-what3words-really-that-bad-or-good-lets-ask-mountain-rescue/

Great article from Keeper of the Peak predating STW by a year.

https://kofthep.com/2020/08/14/i-am-lost/

pdw
Free Member

I disagree. The tool doesn’t give the lack of ambiguity in location that its sellers claim. It’s been demonstrated that there are many confusable pairs within a confusable distance of each other.

OK but while that's true, every single grid ref has countless confusable pairs within a confusable distance of each other.

I think it's fair to say that W3W's "confusing mismatch" avoidance hasn't delivered as well as it should, or as well as they promised, and yes that's a big deal. But grid refs essentially have confusing mismatches designed in, and absolutely zero avoidance. So the question then is, is W3W's flawed system automatically worse for its flaws than the common alternatives. Or if you prefer, is it a net gain despite failures.

It's a lot like self-driving cars, where you don't have to have a perfect system, to possibly outperform the system that's currently in use, but people will always fixate on the "new" risk.

(I guess should probably say I've been a bit of an enthusiast for W3W, basically for 2 reasons- the way it's gained acceptance in the general public which no other location finding app has managed, and the apparent cleverness of the algorithm. So I'm pretty pissed off that a chunk of that is now proven to be so flawed and with the apparent behaviour of the company. But it still feels a lot like it migt be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.)

As per the KotP link above (if I've remembered it correctly)... Emergency services know their patch so if a grid reference is out then they can approximate it.

53.7132290, -2.0960360 is STW HQ. If someone gave 63.713, -2.096 well that's the Faroe Islands so clearly wrong and Calderdale emergency services wouldn't be called for that so an educated guess is needed.

Linguists.enlighten.chatting is also STW HQ but linguists.lighten.chatting is in Algeria. There's no way to educated guess that.

It's very easy for misheard words especially if it's poor weather, poor connection or strong accent.

The other thing is I can send my location via signal, WhatsApp, Google and Strava without me having to know any words or numbers. If In doubt people tend to use sarloc (sp?) to find people, again without having to find and repeat words and numbers.

Not read either the STW or KOTP articles but another year of MRT experience should say a lot for something that hasn’t been around very long. Commentators on here clearly saying the adoption is evolving.