[Closed] What3words...

exactly. It’s their entire business model. Keep it free for occasional users & emergency services/charities but charge anyone putting hundreds/thousands of API calls through the system per day (on their website they mention Mercedes but obviously parcel companies could really benefit too as mentioned above)

That's hardly exactly....
Free as in no cost or free as in free to use without draconian licensing?
Where does it say "keep it free?"
There is a guy in the park with the same business model... he starts off giving his crack away and only start charging once his customers can't live without it.

It's fine though they can just go to another dealer giving it out for free.. if they don't mind having the shit kicked out of them of course.

and of course even if the app remains free to consumers they/will will still be paying on our P&P + W3W charge.

That’s hardly exactly….
Free as in no cost or free as in free to use without draconian licensing?
Where does it say “keep it free?”

Exactly the same strategy employed by Autodesk with their new (ish) 3D design software, Fusion 360. Totally free, built up a huge user base over the last 7 years of both hobbyists & professionals - absolutely amazing amount of features in the product. There has been a creeping monetisation over the last few years, and again this week. SO MUCH bitching & whining on the forums despite the fact it is still TOTALLY free for the majority of users, you only have to pay if you're earning significantly from it or you want to use fairly advanced design/manufacturing tools. Yes it would be a nice world if money didn't exist & everyone put effort into developing great things for nothing, sadly that is not reality!

and of course even if the app remains free to consumers they/will will still be paying on our P&P + W3W charge.

What three words for locating my lost Nigerian uncle?

Honestly, the naivety of some folk is astounding.

You have to reward the time/innovation otherwise what motivation do companies have to develop new products

This is essentially rewarding marketing and the drug dealer model isn't new or innovative.
Neither is giving squares names... or GPS etc.
The coding is trivial ... I'm sure they paid the lawyers far more for writing the licensing terms.

Exactly the same strategy employed by Autodesk with their new (ish) 3D design software

Nope nor is it like Komoot, Trailforks or Strava.

Rather imagine one of those wouldn't export a gpx or other navigation but not only that the license made it illegal to even TRY and export the (your) data.

Now say a courier adopts the system... but their license say's they cannot use ANY other system, no postcodes or addresses.

I don't honestly get the hostility here. I'm not sure whether it's being perpetuated aligned to open sourcers, map / outdoor snobs (me for full disclosure), freeloaders or what but if an idea sticks because it's innovative, helpful, well-marketed or 'free at the point of use' does it honestly matter? Do you think emergency services, couriers, car manufacturers or whomever that can deliver better outcomes to their 'user base' on the basis of this or other innovations, cares much that they have to pay for it? They will invariably have buying teams, and contract specialists too and will always seek to get value for money.

@Scotroutes without flicking back through the thread, not sure where the accusation of naivety is being leveled but Nigerian reference suggests you think its a racket.

To use W3W I have to use their app, its no more/less hassle to use the OS locate app instead.

Is W3W really any easier to use than this? The examples you’ve given show words with a huge potential for spelling errors.

I wrote a long answer that the forum destroyed! But in brief. You don't need to install the app - on a smartphone browser you can just use their website in your browser (but will need a live data connection). Its theoretically more precise (the base GPS accuracy is not but OS locate is only giving you ±100m), less likely to suffer transcription error, requires less talking time, and is not as intimidating to non-mappy people.

and of course even if the app remains free to consumers they/will will still be paying on our P&P + W3W charge.

You know the courier is already paying for access to the postcode database, whatever GPS routing software they use etc. They don't adopt this to put your prices up - they adopt this to save money - say 1:10 deliveries involves wasted time which W3W could save, and that averages 4 minutes of driver time and 0.1L of diesel. W3W could charge something like 5p for every package and save the company money.

Now say a courier adopts the system… but their license say’s they cannot use ANY other system, no postcodes or addresses.

Now you are imagining non-existent license terms. Especially since there is nothing to stop someone else setting up a completely analagous competitive system and licensing on different terms!

The coding is trivial

Now you are imagining non-existent license terms. Especially since there is nothing to stop someone else setting up a completely analagous competitive system and licensing on different terms!

The license terms when I looked were pretty clear if well hidden...if you try and reverse engineer a location it's against the license. That includes using a paper map or other software.

Two of us both experienced this in one emergency services area.

The entire innovation here is the legal wording...

You know the courier is already paying for access to the postcode database, whatever GPS routing software they use etc

Yes an open database anyone can use and can be cross referenced with other databases.

so what exactly is stopping you from developing your own totally free open-source solution thus saving the world?!

Developing? nothing at all... but why?
Unless you have enough backing money to bribe the right people it won't be adopted any more than any of the dozens that exist already.

I don’t honestly get the hostility here. I’m not sure whether it’s being perpetuated aligned to open sourcers, map / outdoor snobs (me for full disclosure), freeloaders or what but if an idea sticks because it’s innovative, helpful, well-marketed or ‘free at the point of use’ does it honestly matter?

Yes because it is not going to stick because of any of those but because of the license terms.

Do you think emergency services, couriers, car manufacturers or whomever that can deliver better outcomes to their ‘user base’ on the basis of this or other innovations, cares much that they have to pay for it? They will invariably have buying teams, and contract specialists too and will always seek to get value for money.

So look at it like this... say Candy Crush or Minecraft or something offered this for free to the emergency services... the only condition being they can use only one and everyone who uses the emergency services or books a GP appt has to download Candy Crush/Minecraft?

At the moment I have to (optionally) have my banks app... but if I change banks I can chose a bank with a different app.

This is silly. Isn't a better analogy Paypal or the major credit card companies? Many people use it, it's (indirectly) free to us and they skim a fee from the provider of the service that depends on it, it's not the only way to pay but clever marketing, user adoption and the development of an ecosystem has made it pervasive BUT NOT exclusive?

I get the purpose of analogies but Candy Crush for a GP appointment is plain daft. If this wasn't in some way impacting the sanctity of the UK emergency services and in particular MRT/SAR would anyone actually give a shit?

The license terms when I looked were pretty clear if well hidden…if you try and reverse engineer a location it’s against the license. That includes using a paper map or other software.

Two of us both experienced this in one emergency services area.

I don't know if the two of you both misunderstood the license terms or are poorly explaining your gripe. W3W specifically provide a tool (an application programming interface) which enables you to turn any.three.words back into coordinates. They don't care what you do with those coordinates, other than use them to build a replica of the their service such that their service is no longer required. Not only is it permitted - it IS their business model. What you wrote originally implied that using any other system in parallel would be a breach of their T&Cs - which is clearly bollox.

Yes an open database anyone can use and can be cross referenced with other databases.

Unless royal mail have changed their position Postcodes are not free. However the issue is nobody has a global address system that is cross referenced. That is what I believe W3W are trying to end up with... and of course own!

This is silly. Isn’t a better analogy Paypal or the major credit card companies? Many people use it, it’s (indirectly) free to us and they skim a fee from the provider of the service that depends on it, it’s not the only way to pay but clever marketing, user adoption and the development of an ecosystem has made it pervasive BUT NOT exclusive?

I get the purpose of analogies but Candy Crush for a GP appointment is plain daft. If this wasn’t in some way impacting the sanctity of the UK emergency services and in particular MRT/SAR would anyone actually give a shit?

If Paypal were to give a free service to say NHS that is one thing.
If they then said if you ever allow any other payment method we will charge you for EVERY transaction ever made since you used our system.

but Candy Crush for a GP appointment is plain daft

Probably but why?
A company simply say's "we have developed and payed for a mobile booking system for free all you need do is sign up to an exclusive deal and force your patients to download the app".

I thought W3W was sposed to be tuned to local language too, so say you're up an Alp and call mountain rescue but have the UK app, will it dish out the English or German words, and would Austrian mountain rescue expect or understand any language's words?

In a way it's a shame the Google equivalent is not so well advertised and promoted, cos that's 6 alphanumeric characters, totally global with a single grid, no licence whatsoever (even though it is big evil business), the code is fully open source for anyone to use, and I expect practically everyone already has gmaps on their phone anyway (with no data connection necessary to spit out a grid ref, just need GPS).

And in the worst case, english numbers and the international alphabet are globally understood.

I don’t know if the two of you both misunderstood the license terms or are poorly explaining your gripe. W3W specifically provide a tool (an application programming interface) which enables you to turn any.three.words back into coordinates.

..

They don’t care what you do with those coordinates, other than use them to build a replica of the their service such that their service is no longer required. Not only is it permitted – it IS their business model. What you wrote originally implied that using any other system in parallel would be a breach of their T&Cs – which is clearly bollox.

I missed what you misunderstood...

In particular, you must not allow any user to reverse-engineer a 3 Word Address Location
from a 3 Word Address and you must not display a 3 Word Address alongside a 3 Word
Address Location.

Which part of having to use an closed API is acceptable to be forced on the end user for a life and death service?

I'm really struggling with W3W. I have yet to find a single amusing or smutty three word phrase that resolves to a real location.

Re languages, there is quite a long list on the website in which you can choose to have your words. And you can apparently type any of them in and they'll resolve to a location.

I thought W3W was sposed to be tuned to local language too, so say you’re up an Alp and call mountain rescue but have the UK app, will it dish out the English or German words, and would Austrian mountain rescue expect or understand any language’s words?

I believe that's another criticism that's been levelled - if your English location is cheese.cake.wine then the French equivalent is not fromage.gateau.vin, so if you are lost in France (with or without bonnie tyler) then having the English W3W app is no use to you - you'd need to download the french version then hope your pronunciation is clear enough for the operator.

single.track.worlds is in Hyderabad.

single.track.forum just outside Baltimore. Not sure if there's any local trails.

Best one so far - middle.class.whiner is about half way between Madrid and Barcelona and looks to have some great riding potential as it's right up in the mountains.

I've run out of argument power. I'm off to find the smutty 3 word location.

Hmm. middle.aged.cyclist is in the sticks about 60 miles north of Roswell, NM. Makes you think, doesn't it?

Also really disappointed that what.three.words does not resolve to their HQ.

A company simply say’s “we have developed and payed for a mobile booking system for free all you need do is sign up to an exclusive deal and force your patients to download the app”.

That's not W3W's business model though is it? They haven't said "you can only use W3W and no other system to pin point someone". You can't criticise them for doing stuff you've made up in your head.

maybe you need some front.bottom.tips?

That’s not W3W’s business model though is it? They haven’t said “you can only use W3W and no other system to pin point someone”. You can’t criticise them for doing stuff you’ve made up in your head.

I quoted a small part of their license.

you must not display a 3 Word Address alongside a 3 Word Address Location

If you read the whole lot substituting THEIR contractual definitions then it does.

For example:

“3 Word Address Location” means the latitude and longitude coordinates derived from a 3 Word Address (with or without the corresponding 3 Word Address).

This has obviously not been written by or for a geodetic specialist and without one telling procurement that there is no such thing as a unique latitude and longitude coordinate without defining the CRS.

Hmmm, they have a clause in their T&Cs stating that they're happy for Charities and NGOs to use the service for free. I'd imagine that's going to cover most MRT teams/coastguard...etc.

Hmmm, they have a clause in their T&Cs stating that they’re happy for Charities and NGOs to use the service for free.

No they don't, the clause SAYS

If you are an NGO or a charity, you may be entitled to use the API for free up to 75,000 convert-to-coordinates requests per Month

(bold mine)

If they then said if you ever allow any other payment method we will charge you for EVERY transaction ever made since you used our system.

Can you refer us the equivalent term in the W3W T&Cs cos I think you are making it up again.

Hmmm, they have a clause in their T&Cs

They have a whole load of clauses and definitions.
(and a whole extra contract for NGO/charities referred to from this)
Unless you read it cover to cover several times with highlighters the licensing is very much more restrictive than it first appears.

As is not uncommon they also reserve the right to change the licensing.
The difference here is that much of the rest of the license binds the client to it.

This isn't like some CRM or PM tool where you can export your data to use in another product, indeed even trying to do that is expressly forbidden.

Apparently hands.face.space is near Llandudno

Can you refer us the equivalent term in the W3W T&Cs cos I think you are making it up again.

Ah, like I was making it up that they only MAY allow NGO's and charities to use it for free?

the equivalent term in the W3W T&Cs

As I stated and showed earlier the individual clauses relate to each other, definitions and schedules.

Do you actually understand what this actually means in practice?

“3 Word Address Location” means the latitude and longitude coordinates derived from a 3 Word Address (with or without the corresponding 3 Word Address)."

they now own that specific latitude and longitude which is only derivable using their proprietary algorithm for transformation. (any latitude and longitude set is only derivable via a specific algorithm so for example given a location and lat/lon you can work out which algorithms were used)

In case the above isn't clear...

bold mine...
again note "may" and that the lat/lon can't be passed on without

Facilitation Period. As an exception to Clauses 6.3(a) and 6.3(c) above, if you have been granted a limited facilitation period, as notified to you by what3words in writing, you may be entitled to pass on the latitude/longitude coordinates derived from a 3 Word Address to your delivery drivers strictly in order to facilitate deliveries to your customers (the “Facilitation Period”). This exception shall automatically expire 6 months from the date of what3words’ written notification of its grant, at which point you shall no longer pass on the aforementioned latitude/longitude coordinates and all of the restrictions set out in Clauses
6.1 shall apply without any exception. what3words also expressly reserves the right to
automatically terminate the Facilitation Period with you at any time by notifying you in
writing (email will suffice) and/or by amending the Terms from time to time. Other than the
foregoing, this Agreement shall continue to apply in its entirety and the Facilitation Period is
subject to your continued compliance with these Terms.

I am 50% positive that *.terms.conditions will be in an ocean. I've tried 8 starter words (spurious, suspect, suspicious, dodgy, boring, closed, fragile, lovely). I CBA to investigate further. Don't say I never do anything for you.

@stevextc - I don't have time in my life to argue all your points with you over and over. But:

The licensing prevents reverse lookups anyway

Clearly thats not actually true since they license an API to do exactly that. What you've quoted is half a clause, which makes no sense without the previous sentence that "In particular" is expanding upon. Given they offer an Excel Plugin which they show converting and displaying a whole table of locations/words I don't think the interpretation you are making is the one they intend - an API which cannot display its output is pretty pointless, so you have to read it in the context of the replicating our service.

and can prevent emergency services using other systems.

this is the bit that I still don't understand... where in their T&Cs does it say if Ambulance Service X uses W3W it must stop using OS maps, GPS coords etc?

Then you claimed it was equivalent to paypal saying:

If they then said if you ever allow any other payment method we will charge you for EVERY transaction ever made since you used our system.

but there's nothing in the T&Cs which suggests anything of the sort.

I do think the use of the word "may" in the terms is clumsy and lazy. I interpret that to mean, if we have explicitly told your that this clause applies to you then it does. That way they are no obligated to offer that service to every NGO/charity if they don't like its aims.

Of course if your were a governmental organisation negotiating a license you may well not be using the standard terms anyway.

You also stated:

"It’s not your choice. Emergency services refused to attend a 10 fig grid ref unless someone walked off the hill to get a mobile signal to download W3W…"

Now of course nobody else here can prove that didn't happen but somehow it doesn't really seem likely to be exactly what happened. The ambulance guy can't use a grid ref because he doesn't know how to (especially a 10fig one) not because he is prohibited from doing so; he doesn't have a map, the crew don't have a map, he doesn't have the training, his system is expecting a postcode etc. - W3W hasn't made a problem here, the problem was always there that call handler was not trained what to do with a grid ref - and probably would have been better if you called the police rather than ambulance even if this hill wasn't really in mountain rescue terrain because at least they would have been able to find someone who could translate what you were saying (assuming nobody could google and find this https://gridreferencefinder.com/os.php).

But then you can't even decide if it is:

The license terms when I looked were pretty clear

or

Unless you read it cover to cover several times with highlighters the licensing is very much more restrictive than it first appears

@stevextc cool, whatever, you seem determined that W3W are "evil mega corp"

I tend with Poly's view, those are standard terms in a contract, as a company that seems pretty keen on good PR I can't quite square your fatalistic interpretation of the their own licence especially with regards to charities that rescue people, it would after all, look pretty stupid given their recently Telly Ad push. As other's have suggested on the thread, I think many folk overestimate the resources that emergency services' control rooms have at their disposal, and overestimate the training that call handlers receive. For my purposes W3W presents just another alternative for easy location.

Now of course nobody else here can prove that didn’t happen but somehow it doesn’t really seem likely to be exactly what happened

Yet another member had the same experience in the same county.

I don’t have time in my life to argue all your points with you over and over.

and presumably you don't have time to download the entire license and pour through it...

I do think the use of the word “may” in the terms is clumsy and lazy.

where in their T&Cs does it say if Ambulance Service X uses W3W it must stop using OS maps, GPS coords etc?

The license terms when I looked were pretty clear

or

Unless you read it cover to cover several times with highlighters the licensing is very much more restrictive than it first appears

Taken as a whole, cross referenced and expanded they are clear to anyone that reads contracts as a part of their job and understands how geodesics work.

I've lost count of the number of huge commercial companies that have fallen foul of contractual terms through ignoring exact wording and wishful thinking and ended up making out of court settlements. The lawyers question procurement and procurement answer in ignorance because they don't actually understand and then when they get caught by the trap and hit with a huge invoice it all escalates.

Whole companies exist who's entire continued existence is based on checking for contract breaches to their license that in retrospect was unavoidable. Well over 50% of revenue is generated not by selling new things but by finding contract breaches that someone thought didn't apply.

This (in my personal experience) is particularly prevalent with geodesic data because it is so easy to create the traps due to a general misunderstanding of geodesics and lack of knowledge of the licensing by the people who use the data and a "surely they don't actually mean that" approach.

You don't actually hear about these because commercial companies with shareholders don't want this to be made public so they just pay up and it gets lost in the annual financial report.
9/10 times my involvement only starts after the invoice .. (though I do have a colleague who used to work for one of these companies who's job was license enforcement) .. the first question from execs is usually not "how did we do this" but "how do they know"... which is pretty simple, they just encode small conversion variants that get propagated and location data is usually poorly understood and considered a trivial bit of data by the people using the larger data that is linked to it.

The next question from execs is usually "what other data have we got that we might end up in the same position" ...
Sadly the answer is "we don't really know... probably loads"

Huge multinationals get caught out on this.. the solution is simply to pay-up the backdated licence fees.
I find it improbable that government or NGO procurement is going to be so much "better"... not to put too fine a point on it our government is the same one that procured ferries from a company with no ferries...

Nickc

whatever, you seem determined that W3W are “evil mega corp”

I tend with Poly’s view, those are standard terms in a contract, as a company that seems pretty keen on good PR I can’t quite square your fatalistic interpretation of the their own licence especially with regards to charities that rescue people, it would after all, look pretty stupid given their recently Telly Ad push

As has been drummed into me .. "don't read what you want to read but play out explaining this being cross examined in front of a court"

I'm a big fan of "never assign to malice what can be explained as incompetence" but in this I'm erring on the side of caution.

I have no TV so haven't seen TV ads but I've seen FB and internet ads ...
They don't have any actual product that isn't trivial to reproduce ... but they have VC money for advertising.
Obviously the targeted ads aimed at me are biased but I find it hard to believe the VC's paid for the advertising but not a contract/license.

Evil is an interpretation ... what concerns me is the model is to force people to download the app for a emergency service. This might be benign but they wouldn't be the first company to find the business model fails and then turn "nasty" and the investors walk away with millions.

what concerns me is the model is to force people to download the app for a emergency service.

Dude, you can't blame W3W for doing something that you've made up in your head.

which is pretty simple, they just encode small conversion variants

And in the old days… ghost elements on maps. Lots of famous examples of this catching out companies passing off mapping data as their own.

In this example, they can just choose to occasional vary the coding, to prove if their rules on retaining position/code pairs are being broken. Even reading just the small contact extracts you have posted show that they are warning that they may do that.