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I wish all you frame builders and dream livers the best, I hope your still there when I figure out what I want and decide it's time.
I fear that this will not be true for a lot of people as it is a very difficult business model to make work and is often over simplified. I keep my fingers crossed for everyone who is making frames in any number in the uk and also hope anyone attempting larger scale production is successfull and will hopefully help some of us smaller guys with dropout/headtube/tubing/decal/etc development
Interesting that no-one has mentioned a very successful European semi-custom builder that could be a good model - Nicolai. It is possible, and on a pretty reasonable scale.
That is because Nicolai work in aluminium & the British can't see past the end of their steel nose.
The fact is that you shouldn't be paying a premium for anything produced in this country, it should be competitively priced as is.
I really do not see how people can be bemoaning the lack of UK production on one hand then suggesting charging a premium if it is produced here on the other.
No one else in the world is going to accept paying over the odds on a UK product & we cannot survive on internal sales only. We need to produce to export.
One of this country's biggest failing is believing its own hype.
We need to produce to export.
Indeed - I spent all today making custom Brompton stuff destined for the US and Japan 😉
I do think the idea of a LFB (Local Frame Builder) has merit, though. A local bloke with a small workshop who can bodge and repair frames as well as making decent competently-put-together new frames for people who like the personal local touch.
The most sensible post award goes to thepodge
No one else in the world is going to accept paying over the odds on a UK product & we cannot survive on internal sales only. We need to produce to export.One of this country's biggest failing is believing its own hype.
100% agree.
depends if your export is design talent or things..
generally most countries can make things, but design is concentrated in key countries.
and there's the hype...
while we are all sat here believing that some kind of geographical location gives us better brain power the Koreans are selling us cars, the Indians are selling us cars, the Chinese are selling us cars. in fact anyone who is anyone is now selling us stuff that a generation ago, we were selling them.
I have 2 Curtis frames, both 853, both custom, both cost what I consider a lot of money.
Do I think it's worth the premium? He'll yeah, they're both built to the size that I want exactly, one 26" and one 29".
A custom frame made for me, to my spec and sizing, and both will never be moved on.
True frame for life, unlike ti or aluminium.
All other things aside, your suggested bike might well be aimed at the wrong market. As a generalisation, MTBers like technology, apart from us SSers.The road market on the other hand is wider and has an element that still sees custom made stuff as worthwhile. At most though, as you are talking off the peg frames so not custom sized, I would have said a couple of hundred quid premium and that would need multiple paint options plus variable brazes on's the ability to run discs and a very light weight.
It sounds like a frontman in the trade - i.e. a shop owner or bike designer could perhaps hook up with a bike builder to better effect perhaps?
Incidently what are the prices for tubesets and drop outs etc these days?
The Koreans are selling us cheap cars however the far east are buying our expensive cars
"Interesting that no-one has mentioned a very successful European semi-custom builder that could be a good model - Nicolai. It is possible, and on a pretty reasonable scale."
Interesting no one has made the connection that he has in common with the chinese
nicolai are tooled up to the eyeballs with clever production shit
whereas here in the UK no one will invest in anything preferring to piss the money up the wall in government schemes to get manufacturing going
It sounds like a frontman in the trade - i.e. a shop owner or bike designer could perhaps hook up with a bike builder to better effect perhaps?
There isn't really enough capacity for that - most bike builders I know have plenty of work building their own stuff without building for others.
dont ribble or dolan already do this
If Nicholai are like many German firms, the profits will be re-invested in the company and not handed out to shareholders etc.
I don't know how much I'd pay, but were I in the market for a frame, I'd pay more for one designed and/or built in the UK, Europe or the USA than I would for one made in the far east.
As for the people that think the UK doesn't have the skills to do the job right, you need to get your head out of the Daily Mail and look at what actually does get manufactured in the UK.
There's an abundance of skilled labour here, and with bike prices and frame materials rising to such high levels, those skills may well be commercially exploitable to businesses other than Aerospace, F1 and Defence.
I just wouldnt buy something so niche.
A good £600 cro-mo hardtail with uk clearances and sorted geometry with dropout options and rack mounts now that is a different matter.
woody74, are you going to do frames in other materials? Ti, Aluminium etc?
The big red herring in this debate is welding. It's not a skilled job, it is semi skilled and British welders won't get out of bed for the wages of their foreign counterparts such is the difference in wages. The uk's manufacturing future does not lie in semi skilled high volume manufacturing, but high tech low volume specialist stuff that others can't do or the barriers to entry are simply prohibitive. Any British manufacturing company who does their own welding are foolish unless they are super low volume and highly customised products. The economics simply don't work. Where British manufacturers, like Cotic, excel is in the design and development side. The difference between buying a fully developed product aimed at a niche market, and one copied and banged out for a low price. To base the perceived value of a product on its material cost is only considering part of the overall cost of bringing a product to market, and ignoring the upfront and considerable investment made on the design and development that has to be clawed back. Doing stuff in the uk is expensive so it renders us simply uncompetitive for medium to high volume simple to manufacture products. I work for a large manufacturing company and we only manufacture about 20% of our products, ie the high tech specialist components. All the other more conventional components and assemblies are manufactured abroad for a fraction of the cost we can produce them at. Unfortunately there is nothing high tech about a bicycle, even a carbon fibre one (carbon fiber is actually 40 yr old tecnology so lower tech than the latest steel and aluminium alloys) so manufacture abroad utising cheap semi skilled labour is the only sensible option.
It's not a skilled job, it is semi skilled
Must have been all the smoke in my eyes,some of those jokers over the years really had me fooled. 🙄
I agree with much of what you say wobbliscott but building bicycles is much more than just welding. I'd also disagree that tig (for example) welding on thin wall tubing where maintaining alignment is crucial could be described as semi-skilled labour.
I just lost an hour of my life looking at the Shand cycles flickr stuff 😳
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Loving these dropouts 8)
If I remember correctly, Raleigh used to boast about the robot welding on some of their high end frames. On the other hand the artisanal craft image is now more highly valued. I guess that times have changed.
The idea is to build a range of frames MTB, Road, Cross, Fixie using the best materials for the job and design. So yes we are looking at steel and aluminium.
I agree with what people say about pricing and the far east but however you want to do it you can not have customisation from frames being made in Taiwan. They spend at least 6 weeks on a boat to get here so therefore need to be identical. What we are trying to do is to offer a more personal service and individual frame but reducing the cost by removing the full customisation of ever part of the frame and all the discussions and manufacturing changes that are needed. These individual discussions that custom frame builders do take time and costs money along with the setup and manufacture when every frame is different. We are looking at changing the manufacturing process so that parts can be mass machined and assembled with specific customer customisation added at the end. Bit of a hybrid way of manufacturing. We could possibly get some of this done in the far east but would much prefer to keep things local as you then have faster turn around times and not a whole bucket load of investment sitting on a boat.
That's a bit like what I do for quite a few custom touring bikes. I start with a cheap-but-decent steel frame from the Far East (Surly LHT is a favourite) but then chop it about - add sliding dropouts, different cableguides and S&S couplings for instance.
It's a relatively cheap and quick way to get a custom-ish frame for people who don't want completely custom geometry.
woody74 - what's your background? What are you building currently? Is it just you or is there a team?
But haven't you heard there's horse meat in far eastern frames?
But seriously, if I were in the market I might pay a bit extra if the ride quality was equal or better than a Far East frame.
What I find curious is that more and more people have started to say 'we want local supply chain' but clearly they are lying. People choose to say it but ignore it mostly when they look into their wallets. It's quite sad. I'd love to buy most of my stuff locally made. But we all vote with our wallets.
I hope the world proves me wrong in the near future.
What I find curious is that more and more people have started to say 'we want local supply chain' but clearly they are lying.
I disagree. I think probably half of our customers come to us because we fit into the local supply chain brief. It trickles down through the components they like also. My experience is that people are willing to pay for it too. We try and use smaller local companies as much as we can in our own supply chain. Not just because it's a good thing to stick on marketing material but also it makes sense financially if you're working in a rapidly changing dynamic environment. When we stopped building our own wheels but knew we didn't want factory wheels, we tried a few UK wheelbuilders and although they were all good we chose to go with a local builder because logistically it makes sense. He's already helped us out of a sticky spot or two because I can literally go to his studio and wait for him to finish wheels before driving back to the workshop with them to finish the build.
What we find people really buy into is the lack of disconnect between the consumer and the manufacturer. The customer who is buying the bike can call me on my mobile as I'm building the frame to ask questions or clarify things. I like to choose suppliers for the same reason. I had a question on a UK made crank this week and it's fantastic that I can call the guy who's actually in the shop running the machines and he can help me out. I also don't think that it's particularly necessary that they need to be geographically close. We choose small vendors all over the world and if I can pick up the phone and speak to someone who's very close to the coal face, that makes that vendor worth more to me than a box shifter that can save me 5% but has no connection to the actual product other than as a marketing machine. Even if they're in Asia.
However, as soon as you talk about products developed to hit a (low) price point, this almost always goes out of the window. If one of your USPs is price then all bets are off with this sort of thing.
I think £500 for my Soul frame is plenty enough for a steel hardtail. I wouldn't pay anymore than that I don't think, 953 is discussed on the Cotic site I think and they aren't going too do one with it as it would cost too much.
Personally I couldn't care less where it's built, I could swear a blind man welded my Orange Five and that is British 🙂
So, for those who only care about the price vs quality, would you buy a decently put together frame if it was built by child labour in Bangladesh but cost 100 pounds less?
(Let's face it lots of big name clothing brands use this business model too though)
(Also although I am arguing for paying a little more for UK built quality, I must admit I own several Giants, a Soul etc. I own 2 Raleighs which were UK made and just would love to see a day when you can buy something along these lines again - UK built, quality frames which do not cost the earth)
What would you pay for a 100% British made frame?
Isn't Reynolds tubing American owned anyway?
nick1962 -Isn't Reynolds tubing American owned anyway?
....and your point is?
Isn't Reynolds tubing American owned anyway?
No. it's not. There's a Reynolds composites company in the US but it's a different thang.
Isn't Reynolds tubing American owned anyway?
no but they do take an american companies steel and turn it into tubes
all isn't as clear cut as the taiwan tube versus the price the poor ol english builders have to buy either
and this taiwan welders is better ,yep at melting welding rods into a useable frame ,that doesn't make them a good welder there are guys that actually CRAFT things and thats something folks will pay for
We were discussing supply chains the other day you can either be in one or do a lot of stuff yourself straight from the tube mill
This discussion has been really interesting as it shows that there is interest but only up to a certain price point. It is also great as just from the number of replies people are interested one way or another. We are certainly going to progress with this especially if the economics keep going they way they are. Lots more work to do but hopefully you will hear a lot more in the future.
Thanks everyone
Woody, you should produce a surveymonkey questionnaire and ask people to complete it, your questions can be much better focused on the info you need rather than forum chatter. I did this for a outdoor clothes range I'm just in the process of launching. A little niche made by me and my daughter.
Shandcycles says some interesting things and I m glad somebody disputed what many of the replies here were saying, price point is the key, what is the tipping point where people will buy british for your product. Does that point work into the economics of your business. A survey could get down to the nitty gritty price .
Good luck fella.
The economics simply don't work. Where British manufacturers, like Cotic, excel is in the design and development side. The difference between buying a fully developed product aimed at a niche market, and one copied and banged out for a low price.
Really? What about the back end of the bouncy bike that kept snapping and the 'long travel hardtail' that wasn't warrentied for the current marzocchi 130mm forks? I would hardly call them 'fully developed'
A question:
Does UK made mean steel?
I'm an aluminium aficianado, had steel frames, didn't really get on. My favourite frame of all time is the GT Zaskar made in the USA. They really built a whole scene around that frame and people were paying for the whole ownership experience which extended beyond just the metal. I know the market was less crowded then.
I do understand the whole British steel look with Cotic, Dialled, On One etc, I've had a couple. It just seems the market is already well served for this genre.
I now have a Genesis Aluminium hard-tail, the original question, would I have paid more if it was uk made? hmmm, probably, but to a limit. £600 delivered already faced with UK only made colours so everyone knows.
Woody, you should produce a surveymonkey questionnaire and ask people to complete it
Nonsense. People would just ask for "a faster horse".
Have the balls and crack on.
I just lost an hour of my life looking at the Shand cycles flickr stuff
Yeah I am defiantly lusting after those Shand bikes now. Stoater plus really ticks all the boxes for my next bike. Now burnt orange or lichen green hmmmmm.
Nonsense. People would just ask for "a faster horse".
agree, there is some truth in that, ask people how much they'd pay and whatever choice you give they'll select the lowest but ... it helped me to understand my price points and functionality that would be important to include.
Nonsense. People would just ask for "a faster horse".Have the balls and crack on.
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Bratty, yes i'd buy that frame.
£100 and a quality item?....sounds good, couldnt care less if it was made with child labour.
Here's an idea, why not get the prison population to weld frames in this country?...labour costs would be virtually non existent and the crims would learn a skill.