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I want what we all want. Something that looks a little bit special, nice paint, nice colour, nice decals. Nice finish, comfy, not heavy but not light, something that you grow affection of.
I don't care what others think. Hardcore Roadies whirr by, drivers think you are one of them. Kinda in the middle. I like my grouoset, I like the hoods, the bars. Si a hybrid would horrible.
Personally i'd go for this, True Temper S3 tubing, and my mates 56ish frame came in at just under 1500g so light as well 😀
Might be a smidge over budget though!
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That volare looks burly due to the 44mm head tube and isn't as skinny/noodly as some steel, but if I didn't value the light weight my CF provides I'd have bought one in a shot.
At least see one built up and decide if it's still burly and unattractive as it ticks so many boxes?
Personally i'd go for this, True Temper S3 tubing, and my mates 56ish frame came in at just under 1500g
Seriously? A 56cm steel frame that weighs less than 1500g? My ti Condor weighed that. Is it a mister whippy special or is your mate just really light?
Seriously? A 56cm steel frame that weighs less than 1500g? My ti Condor weighed that. Is it a mister whippy special or is your mate just really light?
It's neither of those, 88kg and really really high spec tubing, top drawer builder, look up true temper s3, stronger and better than 853 so thinner tubes for similar or stronger frames, but with equal dent resistance.
[url= http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/s3.html ]True Temper S3[/url]
[url= http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=666 ]Waterford rate the S3 steel as well[/url]
I think Ragley were using True Temper tubesets at one point.
You can get Reynolds 953 and Columbus XCR frames down to about 1600g but i've not seen any lighter than that.
Not sure I would be too trusting of a steel frame that was sub 1.5kg.
Not sure I would be too trusting of a steel frame that was sub 1.5kg.
Well I know a guy in Hampshire who rides a 60cm version, he weighs 125kg!
And I've been cross racing my 33 since 2009 with no issues! They are plenty strong enough!
It's pretty remarkable. I guess this is next stage of development for super steels. Actually, a quick look around and the 1.5kg mark isn't even the lightest that some fabricators are claiming to be building at. They're saying sub 3lbs, which is basically sub 1.3kg!
It would be interesting to compare the UTS of the True Temper S3 with that of Reynolds 953. What's interesting about the latter is that it's UTS is something like 40% higher and yet frames built from the stuff are only typically 10-15% lighter. I'm not sure why but I guess it will be to do with how thin you can make the tubes before they crumple?
Some lessons I've taken from this thread:
1. There are a lot of bespoke builders out there making very nice work, many of whom I'd never previously heard of; and
2. Almost without exception those same builders have terrible websites.
3. The outputs from those builders, while stunningly creative and entirely desirable are all largely the same material product, i.e. in terms of function. It is in the form of the product that the most important differences arise and it is the form of the product that the customer values the most.
Just get a 56cm super acciaio, it's so eye wateringly expensive for an off the shelf steel frame it must be good.
And if not I'll buy it off you half price :-p
Just get a 56cm super acciaio, it's so eye wateringly expensive for an off the shelf steel frame it must be good.And if not I'll buy it off you half price :-p
How about he buys a 58cm first then realises it's too big and sells me it cheap, before swapping for the 56cm and selling it cheap to you because it doesn't grip on white lines/throws him off at roundabouts/he's scared to ride it in the rain
Maybe we should just phone condor and point them at this thread and see if they'll do an STW group discount.
Hora can then try and sell his dicount frame at nearer full RRP.
The cynic in me wonders what blend of steel is in that Taiwanese Ritchey Logic.
Plain old tange/4130 otherwise why keep it secret? No one else does. Elude to a blend then you can still charge more for pig iron. I'd love to be corrected as that's holding me back from that stealthy looking beaut too.
thisisnotaspoon - Member
Maybe we should just phone condor and point them at this thread and see if they'll do an STW group discount.
That's not a bad idea all round - I'm in. 🙂
Maybe we should just phone condor and point them at this thread and see if they'll do an STW group discount.
Funny because I was only talking to Julian at Condor yesterday and mentioned this thread to him.
Plain old tange/4130 otherwise why keep it secre
Ritchey Logic tubing was originally a development of Tange Prestige, which was and still is Cro-Mo steel.
It's interesting how much more aware we are of the alloying composition of steel these days. I wouldn't say we represent sophisticated buyers, but we are definitely very aware buyers.
If you we're going custom, would you have it built to take discs?
I'm toying with a new steel frame for my 40th, and wondering about discs..
A development of Range prestige- anymore info?
I'm looking at the Fratello tomorrow.
And whatever that Ritchey frame weighs, I can guarantee than when you add the WCS monocoque fork, the weight will be more than competitive with "higher end" steel.
Just pick the one you like the colour of 😉
geetee1972Funny because I was only talking to Julian at Condor yesterday and mentioned this thread to him.
Excellent, tell him I'm just down the road and I'll pop in to pick up my Super Acciaio at lunchtime. 🙂
When you are there take look to see if they have that lovely Pista in with the wooden rims.. Paris it was named, sat downstairs at the back where they do the measurements for you..
Enjoy Condor, great group of Lads.
bb, I may well now swing by just for a look at that!
Teetosugars - Member
If you we're going custom, would you have it built to take discs?
I'm toying with a new steel frame for my 40th, and wondering about discs..
i would, and then i'd get some really nice wheels, happy to know they'd last nearly as long as the frame.
(with rim brakes, you're only going to kill them in a few years, it's harder to justify something nice)
A development of Range prestige- anymore info?
Tom Ritchey took the original Tange Prestige tubeset and basically butted the living daylights out of it. I think he did things like shorten the buts and make some of the sections even thinner where he felt they didn't need so much material. I'm not sure but he might have also commissioned a heat treatment process to increase the UTS. But this was all way back in the day, around 1989 as I remember and these days, they won't be doing any of that themselves because the tubing manufacturers have all developed their materials to such a high level that the demand is already satisfied.
Tange's top tubeset now, having had a quick look at their website, is called Tange Ultimate but that's been around afew years now, I think it even predates the development of stainless steels (for use in frame construction I mean).
Plain old tange/4130 otherwise why keep it secret? No one else does. Elude to a blend then you can still charge more for pig iron. I'd love to be corrected as that's holding me back from that stealthy looking beaut too.
If the feel and ride are good and the weight is competitive, does it really matter what it's made of?
You do seem to be slightly obsessed with "value". It might be a god awful ride and the wrong bike but look it's the cheapest model made from some fancy tubeset and has shiny things hanging off it 😕
does it really matter what it's made of?
There are pros and cons to this. On the one hand, I think you're absolutely right; on the other, it's good to be informed about what you're buying so that you can be sure you're not overpaying for something vanilla when you think it's chocolate.
BTW way Hora, Julian Cunnington at Condor now knows who you are, that you're coming in tomorrow and is going to take the very best care of you. 😀 He's a super guy, knows a lot about bike fit and the importance of being comfy. He is a racer head but he won't push that on you if you tell him it's not where you're at.
[i]It's interesting how much more aware we are of the alloying composition of steel these days. I wouldn't say we represent sophisticated buyers, but we are definitely very aware buyers.
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Other than the metallurgists amongst us, I think all the 'awareness' we have is a 'fella down the pub' level of recieved wisdom from reading forums like this, which genrally comes from the journalistic and marketing spin that are put on all the various tubesets.
What that makes us as buyers is gullible (because we'll believe what we're told by the LBS) or a pain the arse (because we think we know better than the LBS), depending on your take on it.
[b]hora[/b], you could do a lot worse than one of these 😉
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[s]BTW way Hora, Julian Cunnington at Condor now knows who you are, that you're coming in tomorrow and is going to take the very best care of you. He's a super guy, knows a lot about bike fit and the importance of being comfy. He is a racer head but he won't push that on you if you tell him it's not where you're at.[/s]
You mean you'be pre-warned him 😀
It's a good point, which is what I meant by it not necessarily making us 'sophisticated' buyers, just more aware.
I certainly wouldn't agree though that the differences are all merely 'spin'. Tubesets do differ materially and those material differences do mean that you can get more performance.
953/XCR does have a much higher UTS than 853/Spirit and as a result of that, you can build a frame ligther. That's clearly demonstrated in the market place - Condor make the Acciaio Stainless which weighs 1.6kg and the regular Acciaio at 1.8kg for example.
Where I do think the marketing spin comes in is in how much benefit that 200g weight saving will make, not least when the cost of the frame is more than doubled as a result!
You mean you'be pre-warned him
Just wanted to maximise the chances of a win win outcome for you both. Julian is a great guy and he's taken good care of me with the three bikes I've had from him. And for all the flak you get about chosing and buying bikes that are too big/small/square/round etc, I know you're a good person who deserves to be riding a bike he really likes.
Peace and love man. Peace and love. 🙂
Where I do think the marketing spin comes in is in how much benefit that 200g weight saving will make, not least when the cost of the frame is more than doubled as a result!
And just because it's made of fancier tubing and is 200g lighter, doesn't mean you'll prefer the ride.
Can we send someone along to video the session at Condor? 🙂
[i]Tubesets do differ materially and those material differences do mean that you can get more performance[/i]
But it's usually the marketers who inform the journalists who inform the buyers/forum dwellers as to what that the 'performance' increase is, and why they need it. Most of the buyers wouldn't notice the difference from one frame of the same 'level' to another (but they'll tell themselves they can, because they're 'informed' buyers and it was an expensive purchase).
It's not as bad as hi-fi though 😉
And just because it's made of fancier tubing and is 200g lighter, doesn't mean you'll prefer the ride.
Actually, ironically you're more likely to dislike it. Most reports suggest that frames made from stainless tubesets tend to ride more harshly than those from lesser tube sets. I couldn't verify that myself as I haven't ridden one, but it is something that is consistently reported even by the fabricators - I notice that Enigma seem to have stopped offerin the Extensor, at least it's not listed on their website.
I am likely to tread into the 'man down the pub' mode that INH was highlighting, but as it has been explained to me, this is the result of using much thinner tubes, in order to reduce weight which follows from having a much higher UTS material, but then making those tubes larger in diameter to also increase the stiffness and so consequently the frame tends to transmit more vibration energy form the road to the rider.
Or something like that. It seems to make sense.
in order to reduce weight which follows from having a much higher UTS material, but then making those tubes larger in diameter to also increase the stiffness and so consequently the frame tends to transmit more vibration energy form the road to the rider.
<man down the pub>Becoming much like aluminium frames then I guess.</man down the pub>
I am likely to tread into the 'man down the pub' mode that INH was highlighting, but as it has been explained to me, this is the result of using much thinner tubes, in order to reduce weight which follows from having a much higher UTS material, but then making those tubes larger in diameter to also increase the stiffness and so consequently the frame tends to transmit more vibration energy form the road to the rider.
Part of the problem I suspect is that when a company like Condor or Genesis comes out and says they're goign to make a steel race frame the development process goes something like this.
Racer: make it stiffer
Genesis: OK, here's the 2nd itteration
Racer: make it stiffer
Genesis: OK here's the 3rd.
Racer: etc etc etc.
Genesis: here's our new steel race frame
Punter: Whaaaattttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!! It's 1800g, I can get a frame in S3 tubing that's 1600g!
Genesis: OK we'll quietly shelve that and bring out a carbon model like everyone else.
Steel frames aren't popular in races anymore not because they're heavy but because they're just not stiff at the kind of weights people now expect.
I know you're a good person who deserves to be riding a bike he really likes.Peace and love man. Peace and love.
drinking this early in the day ?
I was lucky enough to own a Pegoretti Duende for a while, before I got my (standard) Condor Acciaio.
I'd be loathe to say that could tell any real difference between the two. Being a layman cyclist, am pretty certain that any difference in feel / performance would be too imperceptible for my insensitive behind to pick up on.
All that being said, the Peg' was an absolute joy to own / look at / stroke and the rest of it!
Genesis: OK we'll quietly shelve that and bring out a carbon model like everyone else.
Which really is the ideal as they can put the material where it's needed, make complex shapes, and easily tweak the feel of the bike. Just have a look at the BB and head tube area of a modern carbon race bike compared to a skinny tubed steel bike.
Nice frame that Zero, and seemingly excellent "value" for full builds too.
I've got a Salsa Pistola, which I've had for a few years and I love it. It has been over Col d'Iseran, Stelvio, Gavia, Agnello etc and certainly is not heavy (OX platinum tubes, ultegra 6700, hope on open pro). However, it can get a bit of a speed wobble descending (probably my poor technique).
It is no longer made so if I was buying now I would get a Ritchey mainly as I like the look of steel bikes. BUT I suspect that the ride quality of a good aluminium bike (CAAD 10) is comparable and would be cheaper and lighter.
Guess what kind of bike/frame material Andy Wilkinson used to break the current 24hour TT record (which now stands at an amazing 541 miles!
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drinking this early in the day ?
Steady or I'll start on the 5spot again 😉
Really?!!!Pegoretti Duende v Condor Acciaio.
Just buy KPHC's frame from the classifieds and get it over with, then you can move on with your life.
Pegoretti Duende v Condor Acciaio.Really?!!!
Which part, that I ever switched 😳 or that I couldn't tell a marked difference?