[Closed] What IS Enduro - seriously!?

Northwind

It's not a multi stage dh race though

Go on then, indulge me as to why it's not. Considering only the dh sections are timed.

Go on then, indulge me as to why it's not. Considering only the dh sections are timed.

they arent all DH. there can be some significant climbing in a stage to link sections although the stages will have an overall negative gradient.

jam bo - Member

Go on then, indulge me as to why it's not. Considering only the dh sections are timed.

they arent all DH. there can be some significant climbing in a stage although the stages will have an overall negative gradient.

You could say the same thing about Pietermaritzburg, or many other DH tracks for that matter.

You could say the same thing about Pietermaritzburg, or many other DH tracks for that matter.

I think "predominantly downhill" is the official definition innit?

Personally I think it's good that there's a form of MTB racing that's growing and relatively accessible.

I'd also like to see more local XC races, especially in the north of England, but I understand they have dwindled because there was not enough demand. But you never know, more people participating in enduro might feed back into XC too.

You could say the same thing about Pietermaritzburg, or many other DH tracks for that matter.

really? pedally sections are a bit different to uphill sections.

unless of course you are counting the jump upslopes at Pietermaritzburg.

I think "predominantly downhill" is the official definition innit?

Not all things that go down hill are downhill... Sure, sometimes you get stages that are basically interchangable with a dh race stage (often harder tbh- the average innerleithen enduro stage using the dh trails is harder than the average innerleithen SDA stage, frinstance) but more physical, generally longer. I've done few enduros where a dh bike would be the right tool, even if I had an uplift, and I've never done a 10 minute dh race, or a dh race with a significant climb or traverse in it. The level of practice makes a big difference too.

Basically it gives a false impression of what the racing is actually like. It's not a multi stage dh race any more than it's an XC race where only the descents count. And I don't think you'd find many people who've done both that would disagree.

Interesting seeing some of the hate & negativity from some corners. Funny too that it's from people who haven't even tried racing Enduro!

Fact is that to do well in Enduro, you need good strong fitness (both base to stay out on the bike for a long time and high end delivery for sprinting on the stages) and good bike handling skills on a par with a DH racer, coupled with good tactical skills to deal with things like energy management, calculating risk on the fly etc.

I've been riding and racing bikes since 92/93 and can say that based on my experience of racing old style XC (Malverns etc), new style XC (round and round in circles), a couple of marathon type events, then some DH and for the last 4 years Enduro, that it's the most "complete" race discipline. A good fast/fit XC racer isn't guaranteed to do well as their skills are likely to fall short, and a good DH rider would likely find the time on bike an impairment to their overall performance. This is frequently borne out in the results.

But that's at the competitive end - there's nothing to stop you doing an Enduro for a laugh and having a great time. I've never heard of an incident of arsey overtaking like we frequently see at XC events (even in the lower categories, which I never understood).

The "it's all marketing" line is bullshit too. The discipline was thriving long before the marketing departments of bike brands got behind it, but understandably, if a business identifies a "hot spot" in their industry, they are duty bound to act on it to capitalise on a market trend. That's not lizard rulers of the earth/bike industry, that is Business 101.

So in summary - give it a go. You'll love it. I don't know anyone who has tried the format and not had a blast. If you don't want to try it, that's all good too. But save the boring moans eh?

I don't like it and have tried it several times. Mostly because I crash a lot, and half the riding doesn't count to your result. In practice I'm fine but when the clock starts I fall off. My enduro career ended almost 2 years ago at Inners. Back to actual enduros (24 hour races) for me.

I don't have any objection to it, other than most of the riding not being timed, and think it's probably a valid format.

Northwind
Basically it gives a false impression of what the racing is actually like. It's not a multi stage dh race any more than it's an XC race where only the descents count. And I don't think you'd find many people who've done both that would disagree.

As false impressions go, it's not a bad one and far from the worst on this thread. If you want to be a pedant and argue the semantics of what constitutes pedally vs uphill vs downhill go ahead. I can't be arsed as it's pointless.

What constitutes enduro will vary wildly since the race formats and terrain do. I've raced various formats and I think it's an adequate description, especially if you are trying to explain what it is to someone who doesn't understand, ie the premise of the thread. Admittedly it's not a perfect definition but then it's not exactly a set in stone format. If you take the EWS as the flagship name in Enduro then one of the comparisons or analogies used repeatedly over the last few years by racers and commentators to describe the sections was "World Cup DH on trail bikes". Another was "some of these stages would rival a world cup dh track".

Whilst I realise that's not to be taken totally literally it gives an insight into what some of it is like.

jimjam - Member

If you take the EWS as the flagship name in Enduro then one of the comparisons or analogy used repeatedly over the last few years by racers and commentators was "World Cup DH on trail bikes".

I rode an EWS, built trails for it too, it was very different to a dh race. Hard enough to make a dh world champion say our local trails are crazy, mind.

The reason I object to "multi stage dh race" is it puts people off. It's a less inaccurate description than many in this thread, sure, but that's because many in this thread are absolute horseflops- it doesn't make it helpful.

The reason I object to "multi stage dh race" is it puts people off. It's a less inaccurate description than many in this thread, sure, but that's because many in this thread are absolute horseflops- it doesn't make it helpful.

Agreed.

Some of the climbs you'll find mid-stage are absolute killers and get into "saddle back up" territory, so definitely not DH. I'm thinking PS1 at Tweedlove when we were transitioning up and saw the first men on stage on the fireroad incline, lungs absolutely on fire, or PS2 in Finale in 2013 with a brutal technical climb that left you destroyed before the really steep series of bus stops.

That for me is what Enduro encapsulates - to be fast and do well, you need to be able to deliver at any moment in time, both physically and technically. The demarcation between the 2 isn't as pronounced as some would think.

I see where you are coming from as regards putting people off, but I still think it's a fair description. Go ahead and give me a better one, or a more succinct one if you want.

I think it's a good middle ground discipline for mtb, where you need cardio, skill and tactics. But there is, or at least there should be a minimum standard of riding required. Saying it's dh on trail bikes or multi stage dh might put people off but it also might stop people from going to hospital. I rode a few of the Fox Hunts and whilst not "Enduro" as such they still fall under that general heading. The last one had 400+ riders at it and a huge number of them were waaaaay out of their depth on what I would describe as a very benign trail. There were some nasty injuries and quite a few riders who perhaps would have given it a miss if they knew what they were getting into.

iv raced in 4 GE this year had a disaster in two but still enjoyed it and made more hungry for the next race. your race can be over after one stage where im guessing you can pull it back on an XC race.

My experience of Enduro so far is tough and fun!

My 2yo was out on the balance bike yesterday. He kept doing a bit of riding, then getting off for a little walk and a push. Lots of theatrical huffing and puffing. Then back on for a downhill stretch.

I'm fairly certain he thought he was in an enduro event.

jimjam - Member
I see where you are coming from as regards putting people off, but I still think it's a fair description. Go ahead and give me a better one, or a more succinct one if you want.

Simply put it's a Stage race where transitions are not part of the overall race time (but may be limited) The Race/Special stages will be mostly descending.

[b]Enduro Races 2014 44
Enduro Races 2013 24
Enduro Races 2012 16
Enduro Races 2011 7[/b]

Knock it all you want its the fastest growing cycling race discipline in the UK.
10,000 plus racers in 2014.

My take on format:
Multiple stages race with transitions between stages. Stages go downhill using a mix of trail and terrain. Short climbs and flat sections can be added to increase the endurance factor of a stage.

But there is, or at least there should be a minimum standard of riding required

Why should there be? Is that not the case for all events? What about road racing? More people die doing that than in any MTB racing, and the potential to injure lots of other people is far higher, and yet I suspect many on here will sneer at the notion that skill is required for road racing.

Where do you start if you don't have the skill? How do you know you're adequately skilled for an event? What if you think you are but it turns out you're not? Can only non-skilled riders get hurt? Are people not adults, and able to make a decision for themselves?

I find it odd that you have people saying how inclusive enduro is and what not, and others - Jimjam - trying desperately hard to make it as elitest as possible.

Why should there be?

What about road racing? More people die doing that than in any MTB racing, and the potential to injure lots of other people is far higher, and yet I suspect many on here will sneer at the notion that skill is required for road racing.

Far more people partaking in road racing would skew those figures so it's a pointless comparison. Also most clubs I know of conduct reliability trials to establish whether a rider is at the required standard to race, so unlike mtb it's not always just show up and race.

njee20

I find it odd that you have people saying how inclusive enduro is and what not, and others - Jimjam - trying desperately hard to make it as elitest as possible.

One post and I'm trying desperately hard to make it as elitist as possible? Jesus. I should really proof read my posts for elitist content. I've been at enduros where it was nigh on impossible to get a clean run through a section because so many people were walking the trail, I wouldn't like to repeat that experience. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that.

Whilst it seems my description of "multiple stage dh" is seemingly inaccurate and off putting I don't think it's as damaging as having a large percentage of the competitors showing up and complaining that the course is too hard or too technical. You don't want to end up with a situation where you have commisaires going round checking everything for health and safety in case anyone might suffer a scratch as seems to be the case with xc in a lot of places.

andyrm - I don't think sensible posts have any place in this thread!

STW at it's best - I've missed it. Thank goodness for a quiet day at work.

I've not done an enduro yet but I'm waivering. Might have to give it a go in 2015.

I understand the format, I'm just not sure if the 30 minutes or so of individually timed riding on trails that you can ride anytime you like is enough to tip the balance.

I've done a couple of Megavalanches and really love that mass start format but I just can't see a few 5-10 minute descents recreating the same buzz.

That said, having ridden a few of the "Dudes" trails around Kinlochleven, I can see that they'd be fun to race, so I might have a go at that one.

What we really need is an uplift assisted enduro format, something styled on Trans Savoie maybe...

What we really need is an uplift assisted enduro format, something styled on Trans Savoie maybe...

Edit: mass start too 😉

....where's the "like" button...?

9th may 2015 Glencoe, Scotland. Bluegrass endure tour

saying that's fully uplifted is stretching the truth just a tad. Would also be better if there was actually a trail to ride down for half of it 😉

This thread is awesome. Keep it up STW!

Let's not forget the 'Enduro' specific grips too!

[img] [/img]

Ecky, I don't think the Dudes have included Kinlochleven as part of the 2015 SES. I was entered in to this years but couldn't make it. Was pretty gutted as this was to be my first proper Enduro race.

In terms of what Enduro is, for me it's just the type of riding we all do every time we go out on our bikes as it has a bit of everything chucked in. Yes some of it can be pretty technical but I think any half competent rider can ride most of the stuff that gets thrown at you. Fitness would seem to be the key component of competing well in Enduros more so than skill.

Well I have just been into the bike shop on the way home from work to order a spesh s-works enduro 29 frame, so I am bang on trend.

I am enduro!

MSP a spesh s-works enduro 29 frame, so I am bang on trend.

I am enduro!

Aw mate, a 29er? Didn't they tell you 650b is Enduro.

[img] [/img]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

It's OK, I'll give you 200 quid for it

jimjam - Member

Go ahead and give me a better one

Already did, on the first page.

Northwind - Member

Best comparison is rallying- you have timed special stages, and untimed liaison stages so instead of racing over say 30 miles, you ride 30 miles but you're only racing on the good bits. So for me it's the race format that's most like how I ride anyway- bimble to the top, on a bike built mostly for the descents, and then charge down the fun bits.

Also you need yellow stuff

jimjam - Member

Minimum standard of riding is perhaps the wrong way to phrase it, but people should know what they are getting into before they sign up, is that fair?

I think this is one of the problems tbh. Yes, absolutely. People need to not be thrown in too deep, other people need to not be bored, you need to know you can complete the lap etc. Some organisers seem a little bit guilty of trying to be all things to all men. It's not as big a problem as it was in the early days mind but it's still an issue, event descriptions need to be clear, honest and informative. If it's some red route trailcentre thing, there's nothing wrong with that but I don't want to do it. If it's a technical bastard, some other folks won't want to do that.

I think the POC king/queen of the hill's a perfect example- in the first year it was really pretty mellow. The hardest thing was broon troot IIRC but it was absolutely bone dry so fairly easy. Then in the next year, in came the cademuir stages and some people who'd loved the first race basically couldn't do it. I imagine some willy waver'll be along to declare the cademuir trails to be basically canalpaths mind 😉

Another key difference between DH and enduro is the amount of practice possible in DH - some enduro races are totally blind, few allow enough practice that you can really know the course. That changes how you ride, as does the winning margin when a race is 20+ minutes long rather than 2-5 minutes long.

Also, a different kind of fitness is required when you have to cover mileage and a fair bit of climbing in between the stages. It's still closer to DH than to XC though.

Fitness would seem to be the key component of competing well in Enduros more so than skill.

Getting fitter wouldn't get me that near the podium - getting better at riding a bike downhill bloody fast would! And I'm neither super fit nor that slow downhill.

Yes some of it can be pretty technical but I think any half competent rider can ride most of the stuff that gets thrown at you. Fitness would seem to be the key component of competing well in Enduros more so than skill.

I'd say it takes both but skill is more important if you want to do well. Fontana and Fumic are some of the best XC racers but they get thrashed in EWS races whereas Minnaar has done okay as obviously has Barel.

It's the most complete test of all round ability in mountain biking. The only thing that's harder are the classic Whistler races.

Northwind - Member

Best comparison is rallying- you have timed special stages, and untimed liaison stages so instead of racing over say 30 miles, you ride 30 miles but you're only racing on the good bits. So for me it's the race format that's most like how I ride anyway- bimble to the top, on a bike built mostly for the descents, and then charge down the fun bits.

Right, fair enough. Not to sound sound like I am just countering your point for the sake of argument but here's why I don't think that's great. First off it doesn't tell someone what kind of riding to expect. "It's like a rally" is explaining the structure but not the content. It also requires your audience actually know about motor sport. Second it's not even entirely accurate since the transfers are timed, out of necessity yes but sometimes the transfer windows can be tight - apparently the EWS at Whistler was brutal due to this and a lot of privateers and even a few pros were caught out.

And the last thing is it's not exactly snappy or to the point. I realise there are differences between Enduro and DH but to me they are kissing cousins in many ways and I don't see that as a bad thing.

jimjam - Member

First off it doesn't tell someone what kind of riding to expect.

It can't really, it's too varied. (your own definition gives a false idea instead)

jimjam - Member

Second it's not even entirely accurate since the transfers are timed

Usually not, in the UK at least. (I must have done 40+ of the things and exactly 2 have had set stage starts, UKGE and EWS.)

It's not snappy- but that's because if you try and make it snappy, you end up with something misleading. You could trim it a little if you want it to be more concise, but not much, it has a couple of ideas to get across. Put it a different way, you asked for it to provide more information.