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...unless they translate any of their English lyrics into Welsh.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65952898
[Rabey] ... and Crawford had also been told to translate English lyrics to Welsh "when bilingualism is at the core of how we express our Welsh identity".
"As artists we are tired of being put in situations where we are instructed to compromise our creative choices, income and professional relationships in order to 'fit' a rule which imposes what 'true' Welsh culture should be
Hear hear.
It's a festival celebrating Welsh and Welshness, nothing to see hear in terms of controversy.
Really, nothing to see here?
Welsh people not being able to be welsh, because someone else is defining what Welsh should be allowed to be?
An anti-bilingual stance excludes 83% of people who were born in Wales, and there's no controversy?
its a welsh language festival.
its a welsh language festival.
Hmm...
the National Eisteddfod is a celebration of the culture and language in Wales...Encompassing all aspects of the arts and culture in Wales, it is an inclusive and welcoming festival, which attracts thousands of Welsh learners and those who do not speak the language as well as Welsh speakers every year.
https://eisteddfod.wales/about-us
Learn some Welsh Chevy its a rewarding experience. The Eisteddfod is a good day out also (even for someone with a small amount of Welsh like me)
The Eisteddfod invited them to perform and expected them to translate the English bits of their songs to Welsh, the band have refused... tbc I reckon.
Welsh people not being able to be welsh, because someone else is defining what Welsh should be allowed to be?
That's not what's happening. Someone who runs a competition is defining the rules of that competition. They are allowed to sing in English as much as they want, just not in a Welsh-only competition. Just like you're not allowed to post on here in languages other than English.
I think they are invited to sing for entertainment in this case, not in competition.
An anti-bilingual stance excludes 83% of people who were born in Wales, and there’s no controversy?
It's worth reflecting on why that number (those born in Wales who cannot speak the language) is that high. Starting in 1800 when Welsh was the main spoken language, what was done, and by whom.
Yep @politecameraaction, especially this bit:
Encompassing all aspects of the arts and culture in Wales, it is an inclusive and welcoming festival
it's not really filling it's own definition is it. Wales is firmly bilingual now (regardless of why) and it should reflect that, or redefine what it's about IMO.
It’s worth reflecting on why that number (those born in Wales who cannot speak the language) is that high. Starting in 1800 when Welsh was the main spoken language, what was done, and by whom.
@bikesandboots: None of it was done by anyone alive today (and frankly, the effect of the economy is the biggest thing, and we ain't reforming that for anyone are we?). It's the sort of argument that says the Germans alive today are responsible for the stuff done in the 1930's, when they're clearly not. Different times.
Perhaps it should be is actually inclusive or be more explicit in it's aims.
I'll be sticking to Stereophonics, Cardinal Black, Manic Steet Preachers, Florence Black, and Budgie then.
I don't blame anyone alive today for what was done and what happened. It's about whether people of a suppressed culture should be allowed to perform in the culture/language of their (in past times) suppressors, at a festival which revolves around celebrating that former culture.
it’s not really filling it’s own definition is it.
Then that's what your post should be about - whether or not the Eisteddfod is conducting itself appropriately. Saying 'Welsh person not able to be Welsh' is absurd. This is why everyone's piling in.
chevychase
Full MemberWelsh people not being able to be welsh, because someone else is defining what Welsh should be allowed to be?
They can be welsh all they like, they just can't enter this particular competition. In much the same way the fact they won't let me enter scottish bike road races on my motorbike doesn't stop me being able to be scottish
Having had dealings with the organisers in a previous job then I can fully understand why the band are annoyed.
The people in charge of the Eisteddfod are terrible to deal with, they make massively unachievable demands on the venues (to the point they struggle to find new ones on a regular basis) and have a few times now had sites cancel their booking after their behaviour. Suppliers rarely come back for a second time after the way they are treated. They have repeatedly been in trouble for not having the sites labelled bilingually, which under Welsh rules (ironically made to protect the Welsh language) you must do, as they repeatedly refuse to have English translations on anything. This means the festival has become one that only attracts Welsh speakers and alienates anyone who is interested in learning the language, the opposite of their stated aims.
The idea of the Eisteddfod is a good one and the public side of the event is generally good (media coverage etc) but the organisers are cultural fanatics who do more harm than good in their blinkered way of working.
Hang on, let me just do your greatest hits for you:
Nationalists are idiots. Einstein said that.
What? No, I'm not a Nationalist. I'm like an anti-nationalist.
It's not possible to be a British Nationalist if you're already British.
Why? Erm, because Nationalists are idiots. Einstein said that...
/Thread gets closed.
You missed out the bit where the nationalists get accused of being angry. They are the angry ones.
We wouldn’t know about the angry nationalists if it wasn’t for Chevy pointing them out, in what I can only assume is an ironic angry rant. Again 🙄
Ironically I remember it being a primary school lesson to take English poems, translate them to Welsh, and have them still rhyme for the Eisteddfod (or was is Urdd, or were they the same thing, it's getting on a while) .
And I'm pretty sure the "all aspects" is referring to written, graphic, crafts, sculptural, etc.
Singing in English in Wales isn't "Welsh culture" any more than a Full English and a pint of Carling served in a flat roofed pub is Spanish culture just because it's served on the Costa del Sol.
Reading the article, I'm actually with Chevy on this.
You don't invite someone to perform and then demand they change their performance to suit your agenda.
@NORTHWIND I'd say it's more like a bicycle gymnast being invited to demo at a flatland event and then being told to do their routine on a BMX.
Singing in English in Wales isn’t “Welsh culture” any more than a Full English and a pint of Carling served in a flat roofed pub is Spanish culture just because it’s served on the Costa del Sol.
Why did the organiser invite them to perform then?
Why did the organiser invite them to perform then?
Because translating the English lines is at best something a 10 year old can do*, at worst an artistic challenge to demonstrate your talent?
*Annoyingly speaking Welsh is just like my ability climb up onto the roof of my house to get a frisbee, and jump off not breaking any bones, something I left behind at 12.
Reading the article, I’m actually with Chevy on this.
You don’t invite someone to perform and then demand they change their performance to suit your agenda.
Wait. It sounds like the organisers are dicks, for sure, I could agree with that (if I knew all the facts, which I don't). That's not the issue I have with his post - I don't agree with his hyperbole that someone's defining Welshness and prohibiting people from 'being Welsh'.
It may come as a surprise but a lot of people who speak and even are involved in promoting Welsh are not dicks.
Singing in English in Wales isn’t “Welsh culture” any more than a Full English and a pint of Carling served in a flat roofed pub is Spanish culture just because it’s served on the Costa del Sol.
I actually disagree with this. Wales is a bilingual country, for better or worse, you can still be Welsh and not speak the language, this is clear; and perfectly understandable from a historical perspective too if you want to get arsey about it.
<p>It seems to me that identity politics is now de rigeur in Wales. </p><p>It’s resulting in increasing conflict with people that were born in Wales and don’t speak Welsh let alone those that might want to visit Wales and don’t speak Welsh.</p><p>In some respects the predictions made of how the establishment of the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament would play out over the long term have come to pass - an expensive additional layer of bureaucracy has been inflicted on the Welsh / Scots and their new governments have invested most of the time into creating fake conflicts with Westminster rather than getting on and serving their people. Nationalist politics is front and centre and distracts from fixing serious social problems.</p><p>The apparent belligerence of the Eisteddfod organisers (if the report is true) is just more of the same - playing to a small gallery of cultural purists at the expense of alienating the many people who would otherwise attend / perform.</p><p> </p>
Nationalist politics is front and centre and distracts from fixing serious social problems.
Funny, I don't see this.
Is the Eisteddfod affiliated with the WG in any way?
Hiterite - that is certain,y NOT the case in Scotland. the unionist press would like you to believe that but its simply not true. Indeed many onthe independence side believe the SNP have not gone far and fast enough nor made as many waves as they could.
It must be ****ing exhausting to be desperately looking for things to get upset about all the time.
@molgrips No affiliation with WG.
Also there’s very little in the way of nationalist politics within WG. There’s of course a very distinct difference between the policies that come out from WG and UK Govt, but that is down to the incumbent party of Welsh Labour and the cooperation agreement with Plaid Cymru. A relevant one for this forum would be the funding for Active Travel, 22 times the amount per person being spent compared to in England.
Good to see positivity in wales
https://www.gov.wales/welsh-government-celebrates-clean-air-day-58m-boost-active-travel
The WG is trying to diverge where it can from Westminster, of course. It sort of needs to for image purposes, and I think it's trying to carve out a separate Welsh political identity; the language is part of that. But you'd expect their policies to be different because it's a Labour majority and significantly further to the left than Westminster. Also like Scotland it's looking to small progressive countries around Europe and trying to enact positive policies, but that's a natural part of being more left wing.
So apparently only ~%18 of Welsh people actually speak Welsh...
As an experiment wouldn't it be interesting if they just used the wrong translation:
Just to see if anyone noticed?
Just to see if anyone noticed?
It took a while for people to notice that some translations were made up on "bilingual" posters put up in Swansea student union bitd.
18% of people say they speak Welsh when asked, but a lot more know some Welsh.
As an experiment wouldn’t it be interesting if they just used the wrong translation
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nxIG4-ORTIg&pp=ygUcZ29vZCB0aW1lcyB3aXRoIHdlYXBvbnMgc29uZw%3D%3D
18% of people say they speak Welsh when asked, but a lot more know some Welsh.
araf down there, we don't know enough to be useful
Probably enough to spot the difference between Welsh and Klingon...
Well, you can't have your barra brith and eat it, can you?
I actually disagree with this. Wales is a bilingual country, for better or worse, you can still be Welsh and not speak the language, this is clear; and perfectly understandable from a historical perspective too if you want to get arsey about it.
80% dont speak it. Yes, more may know some Welsh, I know some Welsh, like I also know some German, French etc, I could maybe ask for a beer in a few languages, but couldnt have a conversation in them.
I did some long term work in Ebbw Vale, many people there were very critical of the Welsh Government promoting the language, indeed, I can see why, when you have desolation all around you, but, dont worry,as your kids are learning Welsh in school. Why not make Welsh the second compulsory learned language after, say, Spanish or a Chinese dialect? Those 2 languages would give the people far more opportunities than being fluent in Welsh. Knowing your cultural language has no relevance to , I’d guess, the vast majority of the Welsh, being as less than 20% actually speak it. No one minds if Welsh is learnt , but, there are far better language opportunites for children, and I think the Welsh Government are letting their people down by the compulsory Welsh lessons. I see it like Brexit, totally insular, and looking back to the past, it isnt going to help the future by learning Welsh.
That's another can of worms though. Lots of things are taught to kids that they don't 'need' in every day life. It's a very difficult line to draw, and another debate.
Singing in English in Wales isn’t “Welsh culture”
So what culture is it when Welsh artists sing in English (or a mix of English and Welsh) in Wales? English? Dutch? Kazakh?
the simple point is this event is a welsh language event. thats the start and finish of it
Why not make Welsh the second compulsory learned language after, say, Spanish or a Chinese dialect? Those 2 languages would give the people far more opportunities than being fluent in Welsh.
If your sole intention with language policy was to achieve bang for buck in the labour market for the kids, then you would...just double down on improving English. But that would be a silly, reductionist approach. It also misunderstands how languages are "taught" in a bilingual educational environment.
PS where are you going to get all those Chinese teachers from? The Confucius Institute...?
the simple point is this event is a welsh language event. thats the start and finish of it
Yes, and yet the organisers saw fit to invite singers who sing in both languages.
I don't get it either.
the simple point is this event is a welsh language event. thats the start and finish of it
It's a simple point but unfortunately it's not a true point, no matter how many times you repeat it.
the National Eisteddfod is a celebration of the culture and language in Wales…Encompassing all aspects of the arts and culture in Wales, it is an inclusive and welcoming festival, which attracts thousands of Welsh learners and those who do not speak the language as well as Welsh speakers every year.
https://eisteddfod.wales/about-us
It is - it even says so there! And this: "The Eisteddfod's rules say: "All compositions and competing must be in Welsh unless specified to the contrary."" "The organisation previously said the Welsh language rule was "fundamental" to the festival."
All singing is in Welsh - thats it.
It would be like me going to a highland gaelic singing festival and claiming I could sing sunshine on leith because its scottish. It may be but it ain't gaelic
total non event blown up by those who hate welsh nationalists who are trying to protect and reclaim their language following attempts to eliminate it. Same as Gaelic
Why not make Welsh the second compulsory learned language after, say, Spanish or a Chinese dialect? Those 2 languages would give the people far more opportunities than being fluent in Welsh. Knowing your cultural language has no relevance to , I’d guess, the vast majority of the Welsh, being as less than 20% actually speak it. No one minds if Welsh is learnt , but, there are far better language opportunites for children, and I think the Welsh Government are letting their people down by the compulsory Welsh lessons.
Actually, as a native English speaker, 99% of the time you are going to be learning the 'wrong' language in school.
I learned French in school and spent two summers working in France (partly because it was a nice place to spend the summer and earn some money and partly to help improve my French).
Since leaving school I've worked in several countries and learned two languages to a reasonable standard and I'm currently working on learning another one. None of the countries I've worked in since leaving school have been France and I've had no use for French except chatting up French girls (so definitely not a waste of time).
The important thing isn't which language you learn, the important thing is to learn how to learn a language. Welsh works perfectly well for this purpose and I'd like to see the Scottish government to introduce something similar.
And of course, there is more to language then communicating simple concepts or asking for a load of bread.
those who hate welsh nationalists
Remember, "hate" is when you think it's an odd outcome when Welsh artists who perform in Welsh are uninvited from a Welsh cultural festival that say it deals in "all aspects of the arts and culture in Wales", where most people don't speak Welsh, and talk about it on a bulletin board.
If you think that's hatred...
Welsh language festival - I think that just about covers it.
Anyway, I hear DM comments are the place for this faux outrage, or perhaps even the 'Chat' forum, unless there's a biking angle here?
Not necessarily on this thread politecameraaction tho the some on this thread cleary have no time for the nationists and repeats the tired old unionist tropes.
It’s a simple point but unfortunately it’s not a true point, no matter how many times you repeat it.
And in spite of your own repetition, ignores the fact that some copy on a website* isn't a contract proof read by lawyers. It's clearly, and quite inherently a Welsh language festival. Why are you so adamant that people should be allowed to compete in English. Why not go onto the world cup thread and complain that people ride e-bikes and take drugs, so the sport needs to be more representative and not pander to sober zealots?
They're not the first people to refuse to perform at the Eisteddfod, so it's barely even newsworthy.
*ironically bilingual
In Wales there are nationalists, and there are also language fascists, and the two groups aren't the same. Of course as usual the vast majority of speakers, supporters and even promoters are absolutely fine, but as always some people are dicks. I don't know if the Eisteddfod organisers are in that category, but they might be.
There are also people who resent Welsh promotion because they think it is excluding or diminishing them. There are also Welsh speakers who think the language promotion is all bollocks and resent it as well - I used to work with one.
The people who resent the promotion can sometimes get a bit paranoid about it and see grievous elitism everywhere they look. They might be right in some cases. However I am not sure this is one of them.
Welsh is the best language to learn for career opportunities in Wales.
some copy on a website
Well, specifically on the Eisteddfod's own website, where it describes itself. Of course, if your point is that you can't trust anything the organisers say...
Still, I can see why "inclusive" and "welcoming" would rub you up the wrong way:
Singing in English in Wales isn’t “Welsh culture” any more than a Full English and a pint of Carling served in a flat roofed pub is Spanish culture just because it’s served on the Costa del Sol.
Strong "a dog born in a stable isn't a horse" vibes, with the hilarious conclusion that Dylan Thomas's work isn't Welsh culture. 👏👏👏
Why are you so adamant that people should be allowed to compete in English.
If your read the article the artists aren't competing they were invited to perform. A huge difference.
She said the duo understood the language policy in terms of competing, but not in the context of inviting artists to perform, especially if the organisation was already aware of their lyrics.
A young Pavarotti sang in a choir at the eisteddfod in 1955. They sure didn't sing in Welsh, sadly anti English feelings and Welsh nationalism are on the increase but definitely not supported by the majority of the population. A bit strange that there's so much support for it on here. But then anti English sentiments are often expressed on this forum often from English posters. 🤷♂️
I've sang at the Eisteddfod twice, whilst at high school and in college.
Both times in English, not in competition.
Didn't get into any bother, though one young lady in the choir did get told to '**** off' by Rolf Harris. 1987 or 1988, can't remember which year!
EDIT. A quick Google suggests 1985.
If your read the article
Which, clearly most haven't otherwise they would realise their arguments have no merit.
Once again, why would you invite a bilingual singer to a festival if you're not prepared to accommodate them?
Which, clearly most haven’t otherwise they would realise their arguments have no merit.
Once again, why would you invite a bilingual singer to a festival if you’re not prepared to accommodate them?
You seem to be assuming that invite in this context means the same thing as if you were invited round for dinner.
In this case, it's two sets of people failing to come to an agreement in order to exchange services and/or money.
You seem to be assuming that invite in this context means the same thing as if you were invited round for dinner.
Er, no. I'm assuming it's because the organisers asked the artists to perform. If it was the other way round the can't really claim to have been invited can they?
Whether payment is involved is by the by, the organisers are still asking someone to change their performance to suit despite presumably knowing who they were before going out their way to sign them up.
Er, no. I’m assuming it’s because the organisers asked the artists to perform. If it was the other way round the can’t really claim to have been invited can they?
I'm not really familiar with the ins and outs of how venues go about booking bands, but I'd assume there's an element of venues asking performers if they'd like to perform and performers asking if they can perform at the venue. In this case it sounds like the venue asked the performers if they'd like to perform at their venue.
Part of the requirements were that they perform solely in the Welsh language which they wouldn't do so the arrangement was cancelled.
Anyway, this is me assuming there was a commercial element to this. It could be the act in question was performing for no other reason than the joy of it in which case, yes, it seems a bit rude.
However, if they were getting paid, then there's an element where you have to accept the people who are paying you might want you to adjust your act to fit in with their plans. Nothing wrong with that.
But then anti English sentiments are often expressed on this forum often from English posters. 🤷♂️
I've noticed it as well, and it's not only English posters, but it is something that they can pretend to be an expert on and argue on the internet. Keeps them safely off the streets, I suppose.
Yeah, I've always felt the English don't have enough national pride.
Far to retiring and hard on yourselves in general, I feel.
Competing in the Eisteddfods as a child were pretty tortuous occasions. It would drag on for hours and hours.
It's the Welsh equivalent of the Chelsea Flower Show - mired in tradition, although well-intentioned.
My brother supplies lighting/power etc and every time he swears 'never again'!
Personally, they're OK for tourists but there are a lot more progressive events around.
It would be like me going to a highland gaelic singing festival and claiming I could sing sunshine on leith because its scottish
I'd pay money to see the video of you turning up at the Mod, in all the gear, and doing that!
🙂
Er, no. I’m assuming it’s because the organisers asked the artists to perform. If it was the other way round the can’t really claim to have been invited can they?
You could invite a professional rugby player to a charity football tournament. Doesn't mean they can pick up the ball and do full contact tackles just because they're a rugby player. It's still someone's event and someone's rules.
Either way there's plenty of English* literary and singing festivals in Wales, Hay-on-wye , Cardiff, etc.
*international, but the point is they cater to a mostly English speaking audience. Complaining that a minority of people have a festival to celebrate their culture is like complaining that the MOBO's aren't representative of British ethnic demographics, or that Ant and Dec are being robbed as they've yet to win a BET award.
Well, specifically on the Eisteddfod’s own website, where it describes itself. Of course, if your point is that you can’t trust anything the organisers say…
No, I'm saying you're taking a very particular interpretation of the words used that it's fair to conclude wasn't their intention.
I’m saying you’re taking a very particular interpretation of the words used that it’s fair to conclude wasn’t their intention
It's not "particular" - it's very clear. It's pretty hard to mistake all aspects of Welsh culture for "only Welsh language culture".
And it's why the Welsh band who were invited to play were pissed off when they found that it's not an "inclusive" festival at all.
It’s not “particular” – it’s very clear. It’s pretty hard to mistake all aspects of Welsh culture for “only Welsh language culture”.
I know right, who's standing up for the microbial cultures in all of this. The festival should clearly have a prize for best lichen on Eryri. It's exactly what the website says after all.
I’m saying you’re taking a very particular interpretation of the words used
Not really. But people can look at the (pretty clear and uncomplicated) words for themselves and decide what their ordinary meaning in English is. 🤷♂️ Does the Welsh language text on the website bear a different sense?
Are you still saying that Welsh artists that perform in English are not part of Welsh culture? Is Benjamin Zephaniah not part of English culture because he writes in Patwa? Are the Ayoub Sisters not part of Scottish culture because they use Egyptian melodies in their work?
For 'Welsh Culture' you should read 'Welsh Language Culture' and tbh thats what they should write in the bumpf as everyone knows that this is the case.
I'm planning a visit this year.
TINAS - what about slime moulds - do they not get a place?
I have absolutely no idea what you're all still arguing about 🥴
I love Eisteddfod. I love Wales.
I love the fact that the Welsh are celebrating their identity.
I'm from North Manchester, I suspect that most working class people from Blackley, Moston, Collyhust, Newton Heath, Miles Platting and Harpurhey have more empathy with North Walians than we do with those from Chorton, Didsbury and Bramhall.🥴
TINAS – what about slime moulds – do they not get a place?
It's Wales, so they were washed away long ago in the rain / culture war.
A young Pavarotti sang in a choir at the eisteddfod in 1955. They sure didn’t sing in Welsh, sadly anti English feelings and Welsh nationalism are on the increase but definitely not supported by the majority of the population.
You're ignorant. You're talking very confidently about something you know nothing about. And in truth, you have little interest in. There are two completely separate events - a national eisteddfod (takes place in Welsh) and an international eisteddfod (which doesn't).
I don't have an anti-English sentiment. I was born in England. But I do have a very strong anti-British sentiment. A Britishness which is often synonymous with Englishness. Which is borne out of the British Empire. Which promotes an arrogant, bigoted and nasty view of the world. And which dominates British life.
But people can look at the (pretty clear and uncomplicated) words for themselves and decide what their ordinary meaning in English is.
I've had a look at http://eisteddfod.wales/about-us that you're quoting from.
The first sentence says...
"Held during the first week of August every year, the National Eisteddfod is a celebration of the culture and language in Wales.
...so that's pretty clear that it's Welsh language. It then later has the bit you've quoted...
"The Eisteddfod is the natural showcase for music, dance, visual arts, literature, original perfomances and much more. Encompassing all aspects of the arts and culture in Wales, it is an inclusive and welcoming festival, which attracts thousands of Welsh learners and those who do not speak the language as well as Welsh speakers every year."
The 'all aspects of the arts and culture' clause means it's not just music - it's also dance, visual arts, literature etc. It's not saying anything about whether that's in Welsh or English.
