Well damped tyres that don't weigh a ton?

The T9 versions feel much calmer and more damped than the T7 versions - had to speed up the fork rebound damping by a click or two when swapping to T9 on the front. That’s on Grid Trail casings.

They wear pretty fast but probably better than other stickyish compounds. T7 lasts maybe four times a long, so I’m only using T9 on the front.

There’s some half price ones online if you want to do a cheap experiment!

A T9 tyre in grid trail sounds like what you are after. Be around the 1kg mark in a 29x2.3/2.4, so not too heavy. The T7 is less damped as it's harder, faster rebounding. 

Plenty of experience on T9 and T7 tyres and the T9 is lovely and damped.  T7 is better than Maxxis MaxTerra damping wise.

I think it’s quite subjective what you’re asking for.

On my hardtail I tend to run 2.6” tyres for a little more volume and give. The old style 2.6 Maxxis Forekaster in exo+ was great for a relatively ok rolling tyre / ok wet weather grip and with a rimpact I didn’t ever puncture it. Sadly mine is a bit worn / gone a little wobbly on the casing now and are discontinued.

Currently running a bargain (from Merlin) Schwalbe Hans Dampf Super Trail / Soft. It’s got good volume, but the drag vs grip isn’t amazing in my opinion. But it was about £20 so I’m going to run it a while. The (also sadly discontinued) Rock Razor in 2.6 / Super Trail (I think) isn’t bad in the summer. Maybe slightly less damped as the knobs on it are a lot smaller. 

I’ve noticed that just 1-2 psi makes quite a big difference on the back of the hardtail. In the dry I’ve now settled on 20psi with a Butcher 29x2.3 Grid and Rimpact Pro. 1psi less front but without an insert but with a 160mm fork! In the wet I’ll go about 2psi lower at both ends.

I’m a bit over 80kg so extra medium!

I've got this combo on my Levo with cushcore and carbon rims - 20psi in the rear, 18psi in the front. Did Jacobs ladder via Rushup/Roych Clough etc yesterday. It's my first time tubeless and I was commenting to my mate how nicely damped they felt on the many, many rocks

• Front Tyre
  Butcher, GRID TRAIL casing, GRIPTON® T9 compound, 2Bliss Ready, 29x2.6"
• Rear Tyre
  Eliminator, GRID TRAIL casing, GRIPTON® T7 compound, 2Bliss Ready, 27.5x2.6"

I'm running Butcher Grid Gravity front and rear on the Turbo Levo 22 psi rear 27.5x2.6" and 20 psi front 29x2.6" no inserts. They do feel well damped

The new ones that have just been released have a more aggressive tread than the old ones and my understanding is that the 27.5 will only be available in 2.4

I have never had a problem with the old ones but they wont get me through this years planned trips and although I have spares. Ive just taken delivery this morning of the newer ones as I had some discount codes to use up.

Will fit them ready for our first trip in and give some feedback compared to the others

20psi rear on an eeb! holy moly i would destroy my wheels! even with an insert.  (and have) but i do like to smash through stuff. 

i find its casing more than compund for 'damping' feel.  heavier casing = better damped ride. i`m not sensitive enough to feel teh knobs!

i find its casing more than compund for 'damping' feel.  heavier casing = better damped ride. i`m not sensitive enough to feel teh knobs!

Agreed, but I think OP is looking to stick to lighter tyres and still hoping get a damped feel more via a softer compound.

Personally I think the WTB light/high grip tyres are a good compromise for most riding. Similar ballpark to those Spesh Grid trail T9 tyres - but better tread patterns IMO.

I would add that Grid casing is just to flimsy for the back, grid trail at a minimum! I had to put an insert in a regular grid tyre as it just felt too soft and definiately not damped

Also quite like the WTB tyres, my local GoOutdoors have a few in their bargain bin for £30

I've got some 2.4 Purgatory Grids at the moment, T9/T7 F/R. Definitely pretty well damped, the T9 more so of course. Grid Trails might be better still, but these £20 each from Tredz.

My favourite tyres for damped carcass feel though are Hutchinson. I tend to go Griffus front, Wyrm rear for a good balance of traction and speed. Or Wyrm front and Kraken rear if I'm feeling frisky. All 2.4 volume, but Hutchinsons come up a little bigger than most.

Posted by: bens

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I see plenty of talk of certain tyres giving a nicely 'damped' feel.

How much of that is carcass and how much is compound?

And how much is pressure?

Anyway, I've just fitted the new version Forekaster, an 29" x 2.4 EXO one, on the front of my FlareMax and it's really nice. Not downhill casing, low pressure damped, but noticeably less pingy than a lot of other trail tyres I've used. Rolls reasonably quickly too and deceptively grippy. Not super light, I think 930g, but I can't say I notice.

Fwiw, my take is that a lot of it is the carcass, but I guess a bit of that is down to flimsy casings necessitating higher pressures to ward off death, so a beefier casing tends to allow a bit more suppleness helped by lower pressures. Maybe.

We need a standardised test for measuring the hysteresis of an inflated tyre. You would expect this would be something of interest in the roadie world for measuring the rolling resistance of tyres??

In the absence of a legitimate industry test (that I know of) can I start off by suggesting you mount the two tyres of interest to a wheel, inflate to your preferred pressure for each tyre, throw out the window and see which bounces the lowest?

How much of that is carcass and how much is compound?

 

 

And how much is pressure?

Its going to vary a lot by rider weight too, Im fairly chunky so every time I hear people talking about running pressure in the low 20s or lower I wince because Id be bottoming out the rim on every root and rock on anything short of DH casings

In the absence of a legitimate industry test (that I know of) can I start off by suggesting you mount the two tyres of interest to a wheel, inflate to your preferred pressure for each tyre, throw out the window and see which bounces the lowest?

Solid test there. That's sort of what I do as part of my stans dance. Just lob the wheel at the floor with some backspin so it comes back. The T9s need a decent throw at 40psi (stans dance official pressure), and a T7 or maxxterra need far less throw to come back to my hand. Scientific testing innit.

Ooooh Im actually swapping a T7 butcher for a T9 butcher between wheels this week, time for an experiment!

Posted by: Yak

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stans dance. Just lob the wheel at the floor with some backspin so it comes back

That's my dance too - I tend to do it on the grass* though, so sogginess may affect my science resultz

*(ever since I left treadmarks on the patio for my wife to find)

Mostly I run grid trail on my full suss and hardtail. If I'm going somewhere faster or an uplift I put grid gravity on.

I put swapped a 2.6 grid trial butcher for a 2.4 grid gravity for a couple of rides. 

The grid gravity hillbilly  made the bike feel calmer. 

It also was noticeably harder to pedal and less fun on the flat.

Sometimes 300g is worth it😀

Posted by: Steven

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In the absence of a legitimate industry test (that I know of) can I start off by suggesting you mount the two tyres of interest to a wheel, inflate to your preferred pressure for each tyre, throw out the window and see which bounces the lowest?

I think you need to straddle the wheel/tyre combo, then jump out of a first floor window, Spacehopper style, and see which one rebounds higher. I suspect that's a better simulation. Remember to wear a helmet kids. And maybe other 'protection'.

Cheers everyone.

I spent quite a lot of time pondering yesterday and figured that I either need more rubber in the form of a heavier casing or softer rubber. Probably a combination of the two.

Obviously both are bad for pedalling but I figure that while heavier tyre takes more energy to access it also takes more to decelerate once it's moving. Descending should be better if anything because inertia and other science stuff.

A sticky tyre is sticky everywhere, all the time. Even on my ebike, a Maxx Grip DHR on the back is a chore to pedal. Considering that I don't necessarily need more outright grip, I'm leaning towards something like an Eliminator in Grid Trail T7, possibly a Recon MaxxTerra in EXO+ or even the SE4 that I'd disregarded. Any of the above in 2.6 with a Rimpact should hopefully be better than what I've got and not too heavy either. Looks as though they're all ~1kg which I can deal with. Rimpact at 95g isn't the end of the world either. I think I'd rather have a bigger heavier tyre than a T9 or Maxx Grip.

The drop test mentioned above coincidentally popped into my head yesterday when I cleaned the bike. I bounced the wheel on the ground to knock some of the water off and thought "that would be a good test!". I reckon a slow mo video with some sort of scale in the background. Drop the wheel from a certain height and see how high it bounces. Repeat with the next tyre making sure to keep the pressures the same.

Now, if only I had a camera and the patience to do it...

Posted by: bens

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I'm leaning towards something like an Eliminator in Grid Trail T7, possibly a Recon MaxxTerra in EXO+ or even the SE4 that I'd disregarded. Any of the above in 2.6 with a Rimpact should hopefully be better than what I've got and not too heavy either. Looks as though they're all ~1kg which I can deal with. Rimpact at 95g isn't the end of the world either. I think I'd rather have a bigger heavier tyre than a T9 or Maxx Grip.

The 2.6 Eliminator is T9 only according to the Spesh site.  For T7 you have to go 2.4.  Sort of makes sense as I guess they think the 2.6 is a front tyre.

24 psi - on the rear! Are you mad? 

Was my only thought. - I never really go lower than 27 on the rear even in DH tyres. 22-24 is front pressure. Maybe I'm over cautious.

As you were. 

The drop test mentioned above coincidentally popped into my head yesterday when I cleaned the bike. I bounced the wheel on the ground to knock some of the water off and thought "that would be a good test!". I reckon a slow mo video with some sort of scale in the background. Drop the wheel from a certain height and see how high it bounces. Repeat with the next tyre making sure to keep the pressures the same.

Now, if only I had a camera and the patience to do it...

watch this space

I'm 20psi front and rear in the dry, 19 in the wet on hardtails, inserts on the rear. We have quite a bit of flint where we ride and this seems to work ok. I like spesh tyres and I'd be happy with t9 front, t7 rear in grid form. I wouldn't use t9 on the rear.

What wheels are you running op? Recently found a massive difference going from 'ok' wheels on my honzo to a set of ex1700, so much so that I replaced a worn reckon in max terra form with a dhr in dual compound and found the bike to roll more quickly.

Nice wheels are worth every penny but need not cost too much. The ex1700 were ~ 300 taken off a new bike.

Otherwise, just play with pressure. Use a decent gauge. 1psi matters. I hit a sweet spot at about 18psi on the rear where the bike is really playful. Then I puncture. 🤣

I think the WTB light/high grip tyres are a good compromise for most riding

I agree. For the front. Far too fragile for the rear (in my experience). And the Tough versions are also easily written off on the rear (despite being weighty).

Well its been an exciting evening 

i had to swap tyres between wheelsets as im off to Wales this  weekend

so i did a drop test from 1 metre

T7 & T9 Butcher Grid Trail 2.6 tyres inflated to 25psi

on 25mm Mavic & 30mm DT wheels

I think you can just about see that the T7s do indeed bounce higher than the T9s

Great science @kimbers 👏 

Posted by: kimbers

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Well its been an exciting evening 

I think you can just about see that the T7s do indeed bounce higher than the T9s

It's everything I imagined and more. It's beautiful!

Definitely looks like the T7s bounce higher. Is it just me or does it look like the DT wheels bounce more than the Mavics?

Posted by: kimbers

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so i did a drop test from 1 metre

Do you think there's something going on with the actual tread blocks absorbing the initial impact before the carcass side of things comes into play... maybe. 

the DT wheels bounce more than the Mavics?

well the DTs are a heavier and much stiffer wheelset, more spokes etc, tbh theres not much in t7vt9s for the DTs its more noticeable on the mavics, It also depends on how consistent my track pump gauge is .

really i should have done several repeats and averraged, then i couldve done a graph eith error bars and everything 

Do you think there's something going on with the actual tread blocks absorbing the initial impact before the carcass side of things comes into play... maybe. 

it also likely matters how the wheel lands  there are alternating sets of blocks on the tyre

The real test is riding and the T9s definitely have better grip and are much less likely to wash out in sketchy conditions 

I wonder if something like Shockwiz would be sensitive enough to flag the differences. But yeah, like you say, really none of this matters, what counts is how the tyre actually rides and simulating that is going to be pretty difficult and a bit pointless.

Great work!

Regarding pressure, I’ve given up on pump gauges, they’re too inaccurate. So unless you’re checking with a proper gauge (I use that Topeak digital one) I wouldn’t assume that the pressure is correct once you’re in the sub 30psi region. I can be more lax about pressure on the full-sus but if riding corners hard on the hardtail there’s a pretty narrow window of what feels good on the rear tyre.

Unless I’m misunderstanding how single compound tyres are made, the tread compound is the only compound of rubber used in the whole tyre. So a slower rebound rubber doesn’t just affect the knob behaviour, it changes the whole casing behaviour.

I didn’t expect to have to change my fork rebound when I swapped from a T7 Hillbilly to a T9 on my Levo it was obvious that it needed speeding up after only a trail or two. Noticed the same going from a Magic Mary Soft to a T9 Hillbilly on my hardtail but I was expecting it then.

But going back to the original question, I do wonder if a tougher casing that’ll handle a lower pressure is the answer for the rear tyre on a hardtail, rather than a softer compound because of the rolling speed and wear? Once I’m off the tarmac running the back at 20psi feels just as fast as higher pressures even though it definitely drags on the occasional road bits.

So... Little bit of an update.

I gave up on the idea of a softer compound because I didn't want to have to pedal a slow tyre around. So that left he choice between more rubber from a larger tyre or thicker rubber from a thicker casing.

Before buying stuff, this time I actually bothered to check on what spares I had and found a stash of tyres I'd forgotten I even owned.

Amongst the pile was a Butcher and a Purgatory, both 2.3 trail but the older Gripton compound. There was a couple of DHR2s which I'm just not going to even attempt to pedal around for any sort of distance. A Dissector which I might consider in the summer. The jewel in the crown was an XR4 in 2.6. It was the older version as it has different graphics from my current 2.4s but I figured I'd give it a a go. No idea where most them came from. I don't even remember buying them.

I'd ordered some Rimpact inserts too.

- Mini PSA, if you're still on 27.5s, they're selling off v1s for £30 a pair including valves.

Anyway, Rimpact in, 2.6 XR4 fitted and wow. What a difference 0.2" makes.

The springy, pingy feeling has gone but the skippy, playfulness remains. I did pretty much the same ride through the Peak today around Bradwell and Eyam that I'd done a week ago. This was where I realised I needed to change something and today, it was completely different.

I'm not sure how much of it is tyre and how much is insert but together, they work amazing well.

I'd dismissed 'bigger' tyres as in the past, I always found that by the time you've dropped the pressure to make use of the greater volume, the side knobs are in contact with the ground all the time. Particularly with square tyres like the DHR2 which makes for a slooow tyre.

The XR4 ends up with a very round profile on a 30mm rim which is probably bad for bike park shredding as you'd need a serous lean angle to get the shoulder working but for me, it worked really well. I started at 22psi and dropped bit of pressure here and there. I finished the ride at 19.

With the insert, there's scope for lower pressure if needed. I never felt like I was running the tyre too soft and never felt like I needed to be careful. It was a completely different experience to the XR4 in 2.4.

Ok, it isn't perfect. It's a bit skittish on gravel/ loose stones and was hopeless in the slippy mud but on the rocks that don't move when you hit them, it was miles better.

So, my original question of how much damping is carcass and how much is compound should really have included volume and pressure too as eluded to above.

It's only been one ride but it looks like volume was the answer I was looking for.

Even the V1 Rimpacts have a huge impact on how "damped" tyres feel, in my experience - maybe you need to take those out and just ride the new tyres, for science

😉

Wasn't one of the supposed benefits of the Schwalbe radial tyres better damping?

Damping must necessarily mean more rolling resistance. I'd leave the damping to the suspension (which will not be active on smoother surfaces, in contrast to the tyre carcass which is always deforming at the contact point).

Posted by: bens

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I'd ordered some Rimpact inserts too.

- Mini PSA, if you're still on 27.5s, they're selling off v1s for £30 a pair including valves.

I just shared that in the PSA thread, seems a decent deal. I've got a pair on the way for the rears on a couple of mullet bikes in the hope I can make use of a stash of lighter tyres I bought for the kids' bikes but no longer needed. 'Grid' version of Specialized tyres rather than the Trail Grid I prefer to ride, but hoping the inserts means I can get away with the lighter carcass.