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[i]your last on my comment confused me - I've got no idea what you're on about[/i]
You are, of course, at liberty to go read the thread, but that is perhaps more difficult than trying to flame someone...Ok.
I've voiced a belief that cycle helmet design could be better from a primary performance perspective.
I have worked on passenger restraint and protection systems.
You and LHS have reacted as if I know nothing about Engineering and crash testing, etc. A poor assumption.
I have not blamed anyone for anything, merely pointed out how I see where we are right now with current helmet design, etc, etc, for reasons of cost, comfort, manuf, blah, blah.
You seem to have consistently missed this, in order to just try to have a go.
[i]LHS knows his onions and understands compromises and user requirements and performance balanced against the art of the possible - be that human or financial limitations[/i]
And the rest of us know nothing ?...
[i]Don't pontificate that it could be better then offer no alternative[/i]
I laugh at your trying to get me to design a helmet here, on a thread.
TJ has offered up some good suggestions for starting points.
If anyone is pontificating, its you.
Are you really saying that current cycle helmet design can't be improved upon ?. REALLY ????
🙂
[i]Do your own risk assessment for your own life and take responsibility for your own purchases, actions and headwear.[/i]
Errr...Yeah, thanks for that, but I think most of us already do 😆
S
[i]The fact that we even have different helmet for on road and off road means at least one thing. Helmet manufacturers start to see that both sport are different and therefore the conundrum is that helmet design should be different.[/i]
And its nothing to do with selling me a helmet for the road, and another one for off-road...
Just what are the [i]real, effective[/i] differences between MTB and Road helmets, in relation to them performing their ultimate function, in their current form ?.
a) The implication that it is possible to choose how and when you crash.
I crash a hell of a lot and it usually is possible to choose how and when I crash, it's the few times it's impossible to choose or I make a bad decision in the split second before/during the crash that I've actually been hurt worst. Knowing how/when to crash/bail is often more important than wearing a helmet IMO.
The rotational forces seem to have caused this thread to go round in circles!
Just what are the real, effective differences between MTB and Road helmets, in relation to them performing their ultimate function, in their current form ?.
Would you wear a full face helmet when out on a road ride?
Everyone, TJ always backs down when you offer him a calibrated whack on the head with or without a helmet. Keep the odds on your side if you want to stay safER, wear a helmet. TJ is right, there are no guarantees of absolute safety.
[i]Would you wear a full face helmet when out on a road ride?
[/i]
Should have gone to spec-savers
[i]Just what are the real, effective differences between MTB and Road helmets, [b]in relation to them performing their ultimate function[/b], in their current form ?.
[/i]
🙄
S
Just what are the real, effective differences between MTB and Road helmets
Giro Xen
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Giro Atmos
[img] 
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Atmos (the road one) has more vents, a sticky out bit at the back, it's smaller, thinner, doesn't go down the bac as far and has no peak.
You need to elaborate on what you are getting at. Its unclear.
here's an interesting paper - it says that a lot of the talk about "not making a difference" comes from poor statistical analysis - the conclusion is interesting.
Misconceptions regarding case-control studies of bicycle helmetsnext term and head injury
Accident Analysis & Prevention
Volume 38, Issue 4, July 2006, Pages 636-643
we should probably all be wearing a slightly more beefed up version of the met parachute (with the detachable chin guard...years ago I raced bmx - we all used to wear pretty much full on motorcycle lids then...
more literature...TJ - do you ahve access to science direct - i.e. can you search for these?
"Current previous termhelmetnext term designs provide adequate protection for typical oblique impacts onto a road surface, in terms of the peak linear and rotational head accelerations. Most criticisms of current previous termbicycle helmetnext term designs are not valid: although test headforms lack a deformable scalp, and so have a high contact stiffness, this does not lead to inappropriate designs; there is a linear increase in the peak impact force with impact velocity, not a just sub-lethal level for minor impacts."
International Journal of Impact Engineering
Volume 35, Issue 9, September 2008, Pages 1075-1086
What is the purpose of a peak on a MTB helmet?
I know it makes you look more RAD but it cant be that.............can it??
Ive been using a skateboard helmet due to lack of cash but I do suffer from boiled head syndrome. It got too much last week so there's a [i]proper[/i] MTB helmet on its way in the post
Looks like this has just descended into the usual bitch-fest I've noticed is common on here.
FWIW; I had a crash last year, broke my helmet, would probably have ended up with quite serious injuries if I'd not been wearing it. Helmet absorbed the impact and did it's job. I'm not expecting it to perform miracles, but if it makes just a 10% difference between the chances of sustaining serious injuries or not, then it's worth wearing one, in my book. Tandem Jeremy has come out with some pretty weird stuff on this, I must say.
i'll just listen to the 'evidence' that my helmet probably saved my from serious injury. That's good enough for me.
Specialized replaced it (it was 5 years old) without me having ay receipt for it, with a heavily discounted one. didn't even ask for postage. All within a couple of days of me sending the old one to them, and they returned the broken one so that it could be used for a kid's cycling safety scheme to demonstrate the effectiveness of wearing helmets (they had fun bashing it with a hammer!).
Helmets FTW.
...years ago I raced bmx - we all used to wear pretty much full on motorcycle lids then...
That makes perfect sense.. hitting jumps flat out bangin bars with 7 other riders, in that situation wearing a neck brace makes a lot of sense too. neither make a lot of sense for pissing about round wooded singletrack though.
I can't be bothered to read all the posts on here, the first two pages were enough but i just can not believe that people are still debating that helmets are not a good idea. I totally agree that the fit and sizing of the helmet is criticle, and I get wound up by people cycling past with the helmet resting on the top of their neck but i know from personal experience that [i]correctly fitted[/i] hemets SAVE LIVES. I have had two or three massive crashes (not bad in nearly 20 years mountain biking :wink:) that have smashed/cracked helmets that without would have killed me. Thats not me being melodramatic. I'm all for looking at the facts of things and reasoned debate but to say that wearing a helmet is not going to reduce your chance of serious injury from head trauma is bordering on the ridiclous 🙄
What is the purpose of a peak on a MTB helmet?
Keeps the sun and rain off your face. I wish my road helmet had one, sometimes I use the MTB lid in wet weather because the peak really helps.
Juan - there is specific good data on rotational forces - I have posted the references several times. Some of them are on this page - there is loads more evidence of this and some companies are now attempting to make helmets to mitigate this
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1182.html
It does amuse me how what I say gets distorted.
All I have said here is :
A helmet that has split has failed and has not made significant difference to the severity of any injury.
Helmets provide little protection against major injuries even when they have worked properly
There are drawbacks to helmet design and they could be improved.
A helmet that has split has failed and has not made significant difference to the severity of any injury.
Disagree. It could have deformed (not visibly) taking up lots of energy, and flexed, THEN split. Lots of energy absorbed and not transferred to your bonce.
Helmets provide little protection against major injuries even when they have worked properly
Again disagree. If it absorbs 10% of the energy of a big smash, then that's 10% less for your brain to deal with.
There are drawbacks to helmet design and they could be improved.
Not disputing that.
Helmets provide little protection against major injuries even when they have worked properly
So let's say that Simwit landed on the stones without the helmet. The effect would have been similair to being struck with a ball pein hammer. That sort of impact would have certainly caused significant trauma to the tissue around the impact point. There would also be a chance of a fracture to the skull (no matter how small), or, in the worse case, an indentation in the bone.
What part of that [i]isn't[/i] serious?
I don't care what anyone says, concrete is hard. If my helmet scrapes along it instead of my head, I will probably be OK. If my head scrapes along it instead of my helmet,I will probably not be OK. So, I wear a helmet. The same as I wear a seatbelt. It doesn't prevent an accident, but it does improve the chances of walking away from most types of one.
But there are types of accident where a helmet or seatbelt could make me worse off, but I believe them to be less frequent, so I will still wear a helmet.
I don't care if no one else wears one (apart from my kids), as long as they don't expect me to pick them up afterwards.
That cycle helmet site is wierd.
It seems to state that by forcing the use of helmets it increases the risk of serious disease due to obesity as a result of people not cycling.
So what about education? Go cycling and wear a helmet = Best of both worlds?
A helmet that has split has failed and has not made significant difference to the severity of any injury.
Could not be more wrong, the fracture process is a designed in feature of helmets to aid with the spread and dissipation of energy.
Helmets provide little protection against major injuries even when they have worked properly
That doesn't even warrant a reply, I have no idea why you think this but its mind boggling.
There are drawbacks to helmet design and they could be improved.
There is always room for improvement, and it will depend on what YOU would decide is the most important aspect. Don't be fooled into thinking it is as easy as just making a helmet which has double the thickness of EPS liner around the entire circumference of your head though.
LHS - 'cos that is the evidence states. Real peer reviewed studies. Cycle helemts are only designed for low speed low energy impacts - whith high energy impact they do very little.
I know a thicker eps is not the answer - its the behaviour in oblique impacts I am particularly concerned with and fit andf retention. Bigger increase the chance of hitting your head and increases leverage
Solo - I'm trying to extract more than a criticism or a question from you. Most all of your posts on this topic have questioned current design or thrown out questions to other posters. I have always been taught that criticism without a proposed alternative is nonconstructive and your posts have shown none of your suggested improvements over what we have. Nothing more.
LHS - some discussion of the failure of helmets to protect against serious injuries
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1054.html
Anecdote not evidence
Real peer reviewed studies
TJ, you do realise that he's one of the people actually DOING the research, not just googling it at home, don't you?
You are in danger of making an even bigger fool of yourself here.
From the link you posted:
cycle helmets give only very limited head protection
Is that not better than no protection at all?
In any case, the quote on that page is from a doctor, not an engineer. He many not even seen a cycle helmet, much less be familiar with the physics involved. Plus it's a court case involving litigation, prosecution and defence and lots of money.
I totally fail to see why you think this is sound science.
+1 Molgrips (other page)
To my mind he's absolutely correct in saying that the first 2 comments are wrong and the third is correct. Personally, I find the first two statements from TJ quite bizarre TBH.
I'm not sure why we're even debating this; but 'round we go again, only to surface in another 6 weeks time or so!
ti29er - unfortunately the evidence does not agree with you.
A helmet that has split has failed and has not made significant difference to the severity of any injury.Helmets provide little protection against major injuries even when they have worked properly
I'm sorry but simple common sense and a life well lived tells me that these two statements simply aren't accurate.
You must start to read between the lines when reading statitical papers and reports as many are loaded as they're commissioned by non-partisan bodies.
This discussion has now run its course for me.
so all the research and evidence and opinion that says those two things are correct are meaningless because you say they are? Without a shred of anything to back them up?
One of the key things you find if you read the research - what little there is published - is that the real evidence is counterintuative and contradictory.
Don't they only protect up to, like 5mph any thing more and they not strong enough,motorbike lids are stronger, wear it don't wear it , I don't give a shit if yo fall off and injure you selfs
[url= http://www.audreymarlene-lifecoach.com/the-need-to-be-right.html ]The need to be right[/url]. I get holding an opposing view, it's good, it makes for lively balanced debates, sometimes though paints you kinda of a penis.
Just to muddy the water......
In my infrequent posts on here,I have sometimes mentioned that I run the scouts in my village. 5 of them have just spent three days doing a sponsered bike ride (110 miles, Berwick to Tynedale, through the Cheviots as you ask).
During one of the practice sessions before I unleashed out alone I was speaking to one of their parents who is a neuro-surgeon and a very keen cyclist.
I asked him to speak to the kids about the importance of helmets. He said that "there was no good evidence one way or another on helmets".
Two of his colleagues are also keen cyclists, one reads the evidence to support helmets, one reads the evidence the other way.
So if top neuro-surgeons spend their lunch hours bickering on the subject, and can't agree, I suspect this place has no chance.
As it happens the parent always wears one, based on experiance, rather than "good evidence".
So if top neuro-surgeons spend their lunch hours bickering on the subject, and can't agree, I suspect this place has no chance.
Probably true, but I bet 99% of people here do wear a helmet.
Peer-reviewed science is great, but I get the feeling certain types of people would insist on seeing some before they started breathing.
On canal / bridalway type rides i never wear a lid...
Does that make me a bad man?
I'm able to post this today because I wore a helmet when cycling along the Union Canal one month ago. Over handlebars at speed directly onto the top right of my head, didn't even have time to let go of the handlebars. Four stitches above my right eye and lots of bruising but my skull would have been fractured without the helmet.
Just thinking about how hard my helmet encased head hit the ground sends shivers down my spine.
I sometimes took my helmet off when on that canal but for some reason that day I didn't.
TJ, From your link..
Most experienced trauma surgeons believe that cycle helmets give only very limited head protection
Based on what? No link to any research whatsoever. Are these surgeons also expert helmet designers and do research in there spare time?
The three cases he includes, none of them are wearing helmets. How the heck do you reach a conclusion like that? Sounds like this solicitor is fishing for evidence as to why his customers should receive a substantial payout.
When i was a kid, before all this helmet shizzae came to the fore, i endo'd my bike down a park slide built on a 4 meter high steep cone of concrete with steps sort of cast in it.
done it hundreds of times before, until one day i caught one of the steps an OTB'd right on to my bonce. Reet down the concrete hill...
Not a ****in scratch! I'm bullet proof i tells thee!
These days i'll lid up on blue red and blacks mind.....
1. Cycle helmets should not be made compulsory. It would be arbitrary to impose legislation on cyclists, who do not face clearly higher risks than pedestrians or drivers. Enforced helmet laws drive cycle use down, thereby increasing the risk per cyclist and harming public health. Enforced helmet laws have not effected material prevention of serious head injury at the population level.
😯
LHS - as I said anecdote not evidence. I have come across that view from neurosurgeons many times but it remains anecdotal. Worth giving some thought to but not proof by a long stretch.
Edit - found some good stuff on athens - however as usual all contradictory and flawed research. I think this debate has really reached the end.
an interesting take on it - and many studies have found no link across populations between helmet usage and head injury reductions - indeed sometimes the opposite is true
http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=4688
CTC thinks that it should be up to you to decide whether you want to wear a helmet or not
They're perfectly right, i think its usually referred to as Darwinism.
if only there was some decent evidence that helmets reduce injuries eh? 😕 😉
Have a browse around the links on the CTC site - makes for interesting reading.
CTC thinks that it should be up to you to decide whether you want to wear a helmet or notThey're perfectly right, i think its usually referred to as Darwinism.
I'm still alive, have bred successfully and i'm reasonably erudite...