[Closed] Walna Scar Sanitisation.

OK, you are actually arguing for sanitisation and creating smooth trails in the name of accessibility for all, even the old and infirm etc, which is precisely attempting to make the more difficult parts of the countryside easy and safe and tame.

No I did not - find a quote where I say that. You want the argument to be black and white. I understand it is not.

We actually want the same thing to a great extent- the difference is I understand that the only way to do this without huge cost of hand building a trail is to do it in this sort of way. You need to either hand build / helicopter in materials or use machinery on the ground which requires width and a smoothish surface

How on earth do you think it can be repaired without a gravel surface?

Unlike you I have actually tried to do something about this - organising MTBers to get active in local trail repair so as to get trail repair that is sympathetic to the wishes of MTbers without excluding the vast majority of users

Your attempts to claim this old cart track that exists because its the easiest route between two places as some sort of extreme trail is ridiculous. I have been on it as I have much of the lake district. It will allways have had somesort of surfacing

so - how do you want it repaired? What methods would you use?

Walna Scar Pass is remarkably gently graded for the most part and is also in good repair. It makes you wish more mountain paths were like this.

http://www.jbutler.org.uk/Lakes/Coniston/060414.shtml

I understand that the only way to do this without huge cost of hand building a trail is to do it in this sort of way.

You do? Evidence? Because from what I've seen of this type of surfacing if we get another couple of harsh-ish winter it will fall apart again, except this time there will be a load more loose gravel covering everything. Surely it would be more cost-effective in the long run to do some repairs that would actually last. Even the rock armouring with drainage ditches on Dollywagon (which I don't much like riding either) at least seems like it's built to last, and is relatively sympathetic to the surroundings.

Walna Scar Pass is remarkably gently graded for the most part and is also in good repair. It makes you wish more mountain paths were like this.

Oh well that proves it then - some other guy said it on some other website so it must be true. What a great argument. Notice though how he refers to it as a mountain path, which you keep saying it isn't. 😆

The vast, vast majority of people who come to the Lakes don't walk up into the hills - it can be crawling in Ambleside but if you walk up a hill for half an hour you can often barely see a soul. I highly doubt this is because the masses are crying out to be able to walk up a big wide fire road style path. Again I'd like to see some evidence that this is the case. I've never tried to claim that WSR is extreme, but neither is it a stroll round the park like you suggest, and nor should we try and turn it into one.

And again I tell you I have never suggested it should be " a big wide fire road style path." You should try read what I posted.

I asked you how you would repair it if you don't want it done this way - which is to standards developed over years and if done to the standards will last for many years.

boxelder

I've had some feedbcak already to enquiries I've made and as ChrisE has said in the past the Walna and Garburn situations go back to NERC and the change of status. Walna has been surfaced by the National Park however, to Bridleway standard (not to do with off road vehicles) - according to Bridleway Society.

You claimed no one wanted or would want a well maintained path -well that is someone who does. Thats all it is

I've never tried to claim that WSR is extreme

Grum
goes up to nearly 2000ft/600m - at the top in winter it can be extremely bleak, cold and exposed. It's not just a gentle walk up a little hill

Grum
reasonably high level mountain passes into a smooth high street so that they are 'accessible'? I'm sorry but it's mountainous countryside, by it's very nature it is rough, steep, difficult terrain.

And again I tell you I have never suggested it should be " a big wide fire road style path." You should try read what I posted.

Except that you are arguing in favour of the work that's been done which is exactly that. You really would argue black is white wouldn't you.

You claimed no one wanted or would want a well maintained path -well that is someone who does. Thats all it is

No, I didn't.

And where in those quotes does it say anything about Walna Scar Road being extreme?

Why do you suckers take the bait?

Personally I don't see Walna Scar as worth the 2hr drive from Manchester. Its ok, just not worth that bloody long climb from the otherside. Who cares if its sanitised?

chakaping - yup, i know, stupid 😳

And great attitude hora - 'it's too far away from me to bother with so I don't care'. I hope they bulldoze your favourite local trails (not that WS was one of my favourites as I keep having to repeat).

im off on my bike to cause some erosion,

Like Grum I very much doubt the making of a path has opened up Walna Scar for access for many people. It must be a small number who can only walk up steep hils if it is smooth.
It would be interestng to see that stats are as to how many new "users" now access the path compared to how many MTB'ers no longer use the route. This is not elitist to suggest there was no point doing it , especially when wlakers access i far greater than ours and now they sanatise the bits we can ride so they can walk ...how kind.

We have limited access rights as is and sanitising these routes will only lead to more MTB ers riding footpaths which is hardly ideal.

I see your point but its not a trail. Its a Bridleway and has to serve many different users though. Chapel Gate was santised recently so it just means we cherry pick from the other trails nearby and comeback to it at a later date.

After all there are alot of older walkers who would appreciate a decent trail I bet.

Bridleways works are always going to put some peoples backs up. Ultimately its a difficult balancing act. The main thing to try and keep hold of is everything weathers and evolves. Chapel gate is an intresting there is the Hora line that it has been totally sanitised and ruined because it doesnt fit with what hora wants from a ride. I think it had got to a point where it needed work, for me the changes mean I can now ride something that was unrideable. Although I do still find the water bars tricky because I'm not a master manualer so I have work hard to avoid going over the bars.

On Chapel Gate- I can see why it was sanitised.

Its not fair for say a family out for a ride in the Peaks together using a map to start down Chapel Gate then find its literally unrideable for them almost to the point that its dangerous and could hurt someone.

Why is it fair to a relative small percentage of riders but unfair for any other potential countryside users?

We think about ourselves too much don't we? After all, horses, leisure/occasional cyclists and walkers also like to have reasonable access.

Therefore I have no issue with occasional sanitisation of a bridleway.

Its about access and enjoyment for all after all.

In the Lakes, I've seen a number of examples of bridleways that have been repaired, but the 'cheat' track going straight up the hill side has received the work, rather than the still visible track zig zagging up the hillside. Repairing the original zig zag route would help reduce conflict, due to lower bike speeds, would maintain the interest of most mountain bikers who like a technical challenge and would suit most walkers by giving a better gradient, with (hopefully) better footing. Does anyone know why the 'cheat' tracks are the one that are repaired?

I'm sure about 10 years ago everyone was moaning about the sanitisation of WS, I could be wrong but it seems now that people are grumbling about the sanitisation of an already sanitised trail?

Why is it fair to a relative small percentage of riders but unfair for any other potential countryside users?

I dunno. I don't tend to see that many cyclists when I'm out. I've seen ALOT of roadies but not reems of mountain bikers.

Sat we were out for 5hours in the Peaks and if I'm honest we saw 6 others- and they were all together.

Its not 'theirs' and its not 'ours' its everyones. So I most certainly wouldn't want horse riders to be put off riding a route because its badly maintained. Everyone should have access to experience a bridleway at somepoint if they desired.

'Us' wanting it as 'core' as possible isn't always fair on other users.

I've had a few replies to enquiries now, but the most informative comes from the Lake District National Park. They provided the following info freely and so I'm sure they won't mind if I share it here:

Hi Andy

Thanks for your query – which has been passed to me as we look after the rights of way in the National Park on behalf of CCC.

With regard to Walna Scar, we have been looking after this route for many years now, and are constantly having to try and restore it to a fit condition for use for everyone who has a right to use it, namely – walkers, horse-riders and cyclists. Much of this has been patching up, rather than full scale restoration.

The main problem was that the track in places had developed over time into a bowl shape which just funnelled the water down its length, stripping path materials and depositing them into Cove Beck. Its damaged state was a danger to some users, and restricted access to local emergency services such as Mountain Rescue (as well as the owners of the surrounding land).

We also have an obligation to ensure that the path surface and drainage is maintained. In many places rainwater run-off is unchecked, meaning soil is washed away, exposing the sub-soil and bare rock, filling reservoirs with sediment and interfering with fish breeding. The higher rate of run-off can also contribute to flooding further down the catchment.

The works that are being completed at Walna, are being delivered by highly experienced and skilled LDNP staff. The sub soiling technique is a sympathetic design using locally-won materials forming a well drained, sustainable path using the existing aggregate for its construction and surface. The technique is identical to that used to build many of Lakeland’s pack horse and mining tracks – traditional to the area and in accordance with strict best practice guidelines. Its cambered profile sheds water into the adjacent gutter. The finished track will settle down by up to 300mm - 450mm over the next couple of years and should last at least 15 to 20 years, with appropriate maintenance.

You ask about possible future changes, and this raises a number of interesting points.

· Firstly you ask about potential upgrades to byways (BOATS) – well, this is a possibility for the Park Head Road – but it is more likely to become a restricted byway (see next point). However, even it became a BOAT – it doesn’t mean that we would automatically ‘improve’ the route. Basically, the standard required for this type of bridleway in the fells means that they will be usable by 4x4s. So, there’s little real difference in the quality of surface. At the moment there’s no actual planned work on Park Head Road.

· Garburn Pass has recently been confirmed as a Restricted Byway – which is a route open to all traffic except motorised vehicles. Basically this means everything up to horse and carts. Again, the standard we would look to see routes such as Garburn Pass are the standards suitable for an all-purpose bridleway used by walkers, horse-riders and cyclists.

· So - any potential changes to the legal status is not likely to impact upon the maintenance regime.

Of interest to me is the question of consultation over changes. With regard to physical alterations, it is not our standard practice to consult user bodies when carrying out our basic statutory duties. Mainly because it is just that – a duty, and something we have to do. However, we do consult widely when carrying out legal changes to the rights of way network – such as creations, diversions, and modifications. I am aware that the cycling community is under-represented in these consultations (we consult CTC only), and would like to rectify this. So, through this e-mail, I wonder if IMBA (or you) could let me know if they/you would like to be consulted on legal changes to the rights of way network – and if so, whom should we contact.

If there are any other bodies that you can think of that you feel would help or benefit from being consulted – then please do let me know.

Reading about the way in which the work has been carried out, I'm hopeful it will become a decent descent within a couple of years, and will remain rideable uphill (the way I always seem to do it) for longer.
I'll aim to get out and have a decent look soon.
I'm going to reply about the consultation too, if anyone would like to become involved - my email is in my profile. I'm certain we can't change a great deal just yet, but small acorns and all that.

Nice and clear answer, cheers Boxelder.

Good work Boxelder..

Thank you boxelder for sharing that.

Grum - I think you should read it and aknowledge that that trail is being repaired in the best way and understand why it is.

Grum - I think you should [s]read it and aknowledge that that trail is being repaired in the best way[/s] ignore TJ's comment as it will wind you up, and understand why it [s]is[/s] will.

Though I don't entirely disagree with either of you.

Ach - you are probably right boxelder and perhaps I owe Grum an apology for being a wind up.......... Its been a long hard day

I've never found Walna Scar that special. Compared to Parkamoor/Nibthwaite which we usually do before riding round the lake and pushing up to it, and the fun bit off to the right by the car park. it was always just something to ride down.

Grum - I think you should read it and aknowledge that that trail is being repaired in the best way and understand why it is.

Let's hope so eh? Having seen previous efforts and the mention of 'patching up' I remain to be convinced though.

The technique is identical to that used to build many of Lakeland’s pack horse and mining tracks – traditional to the area and in accordance with strict best practice guidelines.

I'm still not sure why we are still building mine cart track across passes like this though.

While you have to give LDNP credit for a swift and detailed response (and boxelder for getting it), it's not hugely encouraging IMO. If I've read it rightly then Garburn is going to get similar treatment at some point soon, they don't consult about this kind of resurfacing work and have no plans to.

Ach - you are probably right boxelder and perhaps I owe Grum an apology for being a wind up.......... Its been a long hard day

Aw, come here and have a cuddle big boy.

I've never found Walna Scar that special. Compared to Parkamoor/Nibthwaite

Totally agree - just did that Nibthwaite descent yesterday and it's fantastic. I wonder what the chances are of that getting gravelled over? What is the status of that section?

A stream.

Hmmmm. Echo comments above - well done to boxelder & LDPA for the fast response. However, I do find the response worrying, that the objective is to have BWs usable by walkers, horses and cyclists. Presumably this can only result in a greater number of sanitisation projects.

Oh well I'll stick to the footpaths I guess! (Indeed I would actually - selfishly I suppose - oppose upgrade of footpaths to BW status if sanitisation is a risk)

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One of the best bits....gone.. 🙁

You probably genuinely could drive a mobility scooter up there now. 😯

Aw man that's terrible. And it looks bloody awful. I do hope garburn isn't next 😥

That almost brings a tear to my eye. Gutted!!

What a mess,is it the new Coniston bypass?

samcamsdad - Member

That almost brings a tear to my eye. Gutted!!

You just beat me to it, I was going to say the same.

Some folk are saying what is so special about it? Don't look at it on its own, look at it as part of a bigger ride! Coniston, Torver, Broughton Moor, Stephenson Ground, Carter Ground, Brack Barrow to Seathwaite (also sanitised now), pint, crisps and a pickled egg in the Newfield Inn, up Walna Scar, down the other side and back to Coniston. There are lots of little add-ons and cheeky bits in between these places when you know the area. It all adds up to a quality ride! I actually like the challenge of riding up Walna Scar...wouldn't want to do it now to ride down the "motorway" though!

el_boufador - Member

However, I do find the response worrying, that the objective is to have BWs usable by walkers, horses and cyclists.

Wait, what?

Glad I cleared Walna Scar last time I rode it as the chance to redeem myself has gone along with the challenge. However, its still a great climb and a beautiful place to be so I am sure I'll still be riding over it, up and down on my big fat full suspension bike pleasuring my self as I go

Last week at both the top and bottom of Garbun all the comments related to how washed out the trail was. The climb was especially difficult and the decent unrelenting but all good fun.

Last time I was coming down NanBield they were sanitising the top section.

But mother nature will undo man's triffling works in a couple of big storms....

They have done a pretty good job on that, i see a road where a badly eroded one used to be, good access for the land owner, walkers and cyclists, what is the problem, the artificial situation where you have an eroded track, giving tubby middle aged men on bicycles a rush of adrenaline, is niether here nor there, it ain't a trail center where the TTF's have just been ironed out 😆

ps. sorry but that is the way the world sees it.

mother nature will undo man's triffling works

They've done it with trifle? Bonus.

Yes when I read that back Northwind I realised the point I was trying to make was very poorly made!

Does the fact that a mode of transport is allowed to use a trail legally oblige the authority to maintain it to particular standard? I'd guess probably not. Do you have to be able tor drive a bus down a BOAT for instance? No of course you don't.

If you've ridden any volume of lakes trails you'll know there are BWs around which range from easy flat trails (like walna scar is now by the looks of it) to the sort of stuff which is so steep and technical I cannot image a horse ever went up or down it (e.g. stuff off the high stile range, rosset pike, dollywaggon pike). How far will the park push their policy of making BWs accessible to all groups who are legally allowed to use them? Will it be regardless of whether there is evidence that those groups actually have the inclination to use them - due to steepness etc).

FWIW I wouldn't want any of the unridable ROWs we can legally use 'upgraded' to make them more accessible to us either.

el_boufador - Member

Does the fact that a mode of transport is allowed to use a trail legally oblige the authority to maintain it to particular standard?

I'm pretty sure they do- bridleways have to be passable by horses. But not cyclists funnilly enough.

Holy ****ing shit!

They've built a trail centre out of it. I will raise a glass to Walna Scar of old tonight.

Drac - nope - they have..............

The works that are being completed at Walna, are being delivered by highly experienced and skilled LDNP staff. The sub soiling technique is a sympathetic design using locally-won materials forming a well drained, sustainable path using the existing aggregate for its construction and surface. The technique is identical to that used to build many of Lakeland’s pack horse and mining tracks – [b]traditional to the area and in accordance with strict best practice guidelines[/b]. Its cambered profile sheds water into the adjacent gutter. The finished track will settle down by up to 300mm - 450mm over the next couple of years and should last at least 15 to 20 years, with appropriate maintenance.

Ie exactly what needed to be done to it.

Morning TJ.

morning 🙂

It really does amaze me that someone on a mountain bike forum can have quite such a hard-on for this kind of resurfacing. It literally looks smoother than the street outside my house. Great surface for a route around a city park but for a mountain path (as your link described it TJ 😉 ), really?

Do you want every mountain path to look like that TJ?

I wasn't a big fan of WSR before but I still think that's a great shame - it really does look like like the trail around Richmond Park.

It might be 'historically correct', it might be 'best practice' but it's not the sort of trail that attracts me on either foot or a bike. There's nothing worse than finding a favourite bit of trail has disappeared into something you could ride on a Brompton.

And Garburn is next?