[Closed] Vigilante Motorist and could the cyclist 'fess up?

I ride in London every weekday

I was going to add my experiences to this thread, but it's all gone a bit handbags, so I'll sit this one out

^ This, sadly. You can be riding down the street in high vis and have a bus cut in on you, but when you share the experience on STW some knobber will invariably pop up out of the woodwork to tell you that you're in the wrong.

Agreed but she started it with the dumb overtake and it was best avoided by her obeying the highway code

So anyone who makes a small mistake like this deserves to be verbally abused and rammed from behind do they? 🙄

Odd this. People don't seem to be able to differentiate between an action and a reaction.
Ok so I made a stupid move and used some naughty words (which obviously many folk on here wouldn't use), but without the provocation...?

And replying to people in a way that seems to have upset them... same thing.

I've got a bit of context from that ride (won't post them as they probably contain the kind of language which again would upset delicate sensibilities), but I was overtaken by a coach about 10 mins earlier [i]on a mini roundabout[/i]. Then a car overtook me as I was between 2 parked cars, forcing a van coming the other way to stop. (I thanked the van driver, like the nice guy I can be when someone does something sensible). I caught up with that car about a minute down the road (at the same bridge where the X6 a few weeks back tried to swipe me), then a short bit later the Swift does a stupid overtake.

Er, where was I going with this? I guess I wish I could be perfect like the "nice guys" on their keyboards. But I can't.

[i]I just wondered if you could bring yourself to categorically condemn his course of action, an action that no one in their right mind would ever condone, in lieu of your obvious bias.[/i]

Good work with the Thesaurus there. 😆

[i] rammed from behind do they? [/i]

You're doing it again. Rammed?? By a 23cm bike tyre? You're madder than me.

You're doing it again. Rammed?? By a 23cm bike tyre? You're madder than me.

Unfortunately, the intended crack in the bumper didn't happen

Forget what you'd previously posted?

DezB, [url= http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/Pages/controlling-anger.aspx ]this might be useful?[/url]

Over and out.

It might be.. currently off work with stress, so will have read.

We all know how POV cameras have a different depth of field than the human eye and how intentions can be misunderstood on forum posts.

My 2p, that was a ******* idiot manoeuvre by the driver, it would not have had to be too much tighter before leaving the rider nowhere to go. How else, apart from touch their vehicles and shout, can you wake up these zombie drivers?

I had a great ride on Sunday, during the 10 minute ride from train station back to home, 3 drivers decided they wanted to be where I was.
The most ignorant was driving halfway into a bike lane, on his phone and pretending not to notice me riding towards him. I gave his mirror a flick on the way past. You can burn me now.

Agreed but she started it with the dumb overtake and it was best avoided by her obeying the highway code

(Between you and me, I didn't even think it was that bad an overtake, but like I said earlier, I totally get that the camera gives you a very different perspective to that of the person riding the bike)

Dez is an animal, I have no doubt in my mind that his next action would have been to tear that wheeled tin apart and eat the contents.

In fact, I'm so disgusted by his actions I've put my foot through the screen and sent STW the bill.

just watching the video there, the cyclist didn't start breaking until he realised the car in front had to slow to a halt for the oncoming traffic, he was pedalling for a good while once the brake lights came on. Irrespective of when the car in front overtook, there appears to be more than ample distance between car and cyclist to come to a halt but he didn't read the road, braked late once he saw the oncoming traffic and hit the car. Sorry mate, looks like you tried to create a situation that didn't need to happen, that or your brakes are truly awful given the breaking distance you required to come to a halt. Although I don't fancy spending time looking, there is surely a highway code saying thou must not drive into the back of people for no reason.

I've done stupid things in my time too, just fortunate enough not to have too many of them on camera and then share on a public forum...

How about taking the discussion back to where it was over a page ago?
My reading of the road and braking was perfect. Absolutely perfect.

Got to ask - from a driving point of view - those who say I was wrong to shout and ooh upset the poor lady in the Suzuki - would YOU drive like that?
Would you overtake anything knowing you'll have to brake and maybe stop in front of them 4 seconds later?

Unfortunately I think "driv[ing] like that" is fairly common. As a driver and a cyclist, the number of times I've seen someone overtaking into a blind bend, before turning left or some other similar situation where there is a huge element of unknown is uncountable. It's especially dangerous with 'decent' cyclists who can easily be carrying 20mph of momentum - not inconsiderable in a built up area.

My reading of the road and braking was perfect. Absolutely perfect.

Hahaha, genius.

[IMG] [/IMG]

So anyone who makes a small mistake like this deserves to be verbally abused and rammed from behind do they?

Yes that is exactly what i mean that is why I chose totally different words and said nothing like that FFS 🙄
If she stays behind him, till safe to pass without breaking, how can he run into the back of her?
It cannot happen hence you had to make up an [ piss poor and already refuted straw man]argument instead.
Now you look foolish.

Between you and me, I didn't even think it was that bad an overtake,

What a shame the highway code disagrees with you but you have every right to not apply the rules of the road to your argument

What a shame the highway code disagrees with you but you have every right to not apply the rules of the road to your argument

You guys who are berating Dez for his supposed overreaction, do you actually commute on the roads?

I have every sympathy and would more than likely reacted in a similar manner. Overtaking a cyclist then causing them to brake obviously goes against the highway code. I commute by bike every day and must get at least 3 or 4 incidents a week.

One of the worse examples was being overtaken yards before a roundabout for the car to suddenly brake to give way to traffic already on the roundabout. This car had a blue light on the roof! I made a few gestures to show my displeasure and the car pulled off. A quarter of a mile down the road said Police car had stopped and the police woman pulled me over to ask what the problem was! After a brief discussion in which she seem totally oblivious to what she had done, I pointed to the light on my helmet said, "don't worry it's all on camera" and cycled off. She didn't follow me. I hope she had a worrying few days wondering if I was going to report her and reflecting on her bad driving! 😉

My reading of the road and braking was perfect. Absolutely perfect.

So why didnt you brake harder at at all. I could have stopped faster by using my feet on the ground.

Look, maybe you'll understand this plain English:
If someone pisses me off I like to let them know. I know it won't change them anymore than some self-righteous knobbers on the internet telling me I'm wrong will change me. But I do it and that's how it is.

You guys who are berating Dez for his supposed overreaction, do you actually commute on the roads?

I have every sympathy and would more than likely reacted in a similar manner. Overtaking a cyclist then causing them to brake obviously goes against the highway code. I commute by bike every day and must get at least 3 or 4 incidents a week.

Edited to clarify that I'm hoping the aforementioned "wheel-in-the-bumper" business would hopefully be my front wheel in their rear bumper, rather than their front bumper in my back wheel as they're too interested in their phone/radio/tablet/Kindle to see my lardy arse wobbling along off to the left.

[quote=sbob ]Of course, but now would be a good time for you and aracer to condemn the cyclist's deliberate action of colliding with the car.
For clarity, you know.

Sorry I've not got back to you, I'm a bit behind with my STW requests today. I also have a horrible feeling I'm pouring petrol rather than water on this particular fire, but in true STW fashion here goes anyway...

What dez did wasn't the right thing to do - is that what you were after?

However I'm going to launch into some whataboutery here. Compared to the things many motorists do wrong on a daily basis, which actually endanger lives, his actions don't even register on the scale. Some perspective is needed here - I'm certainly not an advocate for cyclists behaving badly, I try to be on my best behaviour, and will berate cyclists who misbehave - however the argument that cyclists should be held to the same standards as drivers is fallacious.

Lets use an analogy here; there are quite strict regulations on the ownership and use of firearms - should we also require you to need a licence to own a water pistol, keep your water pistols in a locked cabinet and avoid having a loaded water pistol in a public place. Water pistol owners don't have to pay for gun licenses, don't need to have any training or have their water pistol cabinets inspected. Water pistol owners need to follow the same rules as firearms users is they want to earn the respect of other gun owners.

Clearly that's a really rubbish analogy as far less people are killed by cars than by guns. Oh hang on...

Clarify what you think my argument is, would you?

Oh, ok. No, that wasn't my argument, it was an observation on the relative danger of the overtake and made no mention of its compliance with the highway code. Thanks for reading, though. 🙂

grrr - watch one vid of someone ****ting the back of a car with a bike, and now my youtube is full of recommendations from that cycling mikey incident magnet.

is he still alive?

Look, maybe you'll understand this plain English:
If someone pisses me off I like to let them know. I know it won't change them anymore than some self-righteous knobbers on the internet telling me I'm wrong will change me. But I do it and that's how it is.

If some 'self-righteous knobber' hit the back of my girlfriends car whilst shouting abuse when she didn't realise what she did may be dangerous, she would be very upset and shaken.

There was no reason for you hitting that persons car, no matter how light. You had plenty of space to brake. I assume you shout and hit your child if he cuts you up on a cycle ride? I guess you hit and shout at other riders if they overtake you at the trail centre too? And your boss if he 'pisses you off'? How about in a car if a cyclist cuts you up? Where does it end? You've got some issues 🙄

If some 'self-righteous knobber' hit the back of my girlfriends car whilst shouting abuse when she didn't realise what she did may be dangerous, she would be very upset and shaken.

Personally I think dez over reacted but only a little. It was a minor incident followed up with a minor response. Nobody got hit. He touched his tyre against a car bumper after a selfish and thoughtless, but fairly safe manoeuvre.

Nickjb, I have no problem with him getting verbal. As long as being verbal doesn't become threatening. Hitting the car was out of order though.

This thread is excellent! It reminds me of what a muppet I used to be on the road on a bike while commuting until I realised quite how unpleasant I was being and how it was affecting me and doing nothing of benefit for the drivers I was shouting at. There are times when an outburst is impossible to stop or potentially justified when there is real danger involved but I would suggest that it is unlikely that anyone's mind or behaviour will be changed by shouting and colliding (no matter how slight).

Personally I now concentrate on the benefits of my commute as opposed to being stuck in a car being annoyed at people. And I commute in Belfast where the drivers can really be quite rubbish.

Dogsby

How do you suggest we improve the standard of driving? It's not easy but letting people know when they've acted dangerously without realising it seems like an ok way to me.

I agree dez shouldn't have hit the car, and I'm not going to defend that. I doubt the driver heard what he was saying though - do people really think that "oh for ****s sake, ****ing cars" was abuse directed at the driver? Is everybody on this thread really so self controlled that they wouldn't get a bit angry at a car (totally incorrectly and inconsiderately) doing that to them - particularly given his later clarification of what had happened earlier on the ride.

So he shouted some rude words in the heat of the moment - far less rude than what the car driver did, but then such behaviour is so normalised we don't even notice it, and most car drivers wouldn't even realise they'd done anything wrong. Even behaviour by drivers which is truly dangerous to other road users (not the case here) is normalised. Two wrongs don't make a right, but shouting rude words to nobody in particular is kind of understandable and excusable in the circumstances. No it didn't help the situation, but I'd suggest we stop a bit short of lynching him and derailing the thread for it.

So he shouted some rude words in the heat of the moment - far less rude than what the car driver did

I don't really see what the driver did as being that bad.
Nice wide overtake giving the shouty man plenty of room (I've only just watched the vid with sound, BTW).
All depends on the visibility of the warning sign on commencement of the overtake.
Shouty man has anger issues and is obviously looking for conflict. He's the type who will deliberately put themselves in danger "to prove a point".
What would he have done if the Swift hadn't overtaken?
Would he have gone head to head with the oncoming traffic?
Someone needs an attitude realignment.
Good job he's not in a car.

Ride calm people. 🙂

Two wrongs don't make a right, but shouting rude words to nobody in particular is kind of understandable and excusable in the circumstances. No it didn't help the situation, but I'd suggest we stop a bit short of lynching him and derailing the thread for it.

[quote=sbob ]I don't really see what the driver did as being that bad.

Because such driving is normalised. Bloody rude though if nothing else - and as pointed out above it breaks the guidance in the HC, if the courts and CPS were a huge amount more robust on motoring offences than they actually are, that would be sufficient ground for a prosecution for careless driving.

Shouty man has anger issues and is obviously looking for conflict.

Really? For shouting rude words at nobody in particular (or do you actually think they're intended for the driver to hear - big fail there then?) Presumably you have far greater self-control than 99% of the population if you'd shrug off dez's ride experiences totally calmly.

[i]Because such driving is normalised[/i]

Coincidence! I've just updated the comments on the video saying exactly that.

I certainly don't feel "lynched", aracer! 🙂
Don't give a toss about most of what is said, but when people come up with such dickish comments as

Shouty man has anger issues and is obviously looking for conflict. He's the type who will deliberately put themselves in danger "to prove a point"

Presumably you have far greater self-control than

someone who thinks they have a god given right to unhindered progress?

Yeah, definitely.
I've just used the roads and had to slow down loads of times due to other people.
No drama necessary. 🙂

dez's ride experiences

We only have evidence of one. 💡
I would have either calmly slowed down behind the swift, or calmly overtaken it if safety wasn't high on my agenda that day.

if the courts and CPS were [s]a huge amount more robust on motoring offences than they actually are[/s] run by a frothing mentalist like TJ, that would be sufficient ground for a prosecution for careless driving.

Reality is that way: ---->

I don't really see what the driver did as being that bad.

There hasn't been any disagreement whether it was bad driving or not, has there? I wouldn't particularly say we've been debating whereabouts on the scale of badness it is either, you just randomly started referencing the highway code in response to an imcomplete section of a sentence I wrote. You might call that progress, but I feel like you're muddying the waters.

There hasn't been any disagreement whether it was bad driving or not, has there? I wouldn't particularly say we've been debating whereabouts on the scale of badness it is either

Between you and me, I didn't even think it was that bad an overtake

So why didnt you brake harder at at all. I could have stopped faster by using my feet on the ground.

indeed...there was so much time to brake there, his actions are embarassing.

Almost as bad as the predictability of the usual clowns on here, refusing to admit the actions of the cyclist were completely out of order.

Junkyard - lazarus

So we agree it was not good driving

It all depends on the visibility of the warning sign on commencement of the overtake. Hard to tell from the video, but I'd imagine it was visible.
Either way, it wasn't dangerous and DezB would have had to slow down anyway due to the oncoming traffic at the pinch point, making his behaviour even more ridiculous.

It's almost always about attitude.

So what should have been the correct course of action for the motorist in that situation?

[i]DezB would have had to slow down anyway due to the oncoming traffic at the pinch point[/i]

3 posts in a row full of clueless dickishness and still he doesn't stop.
If I would've been held up by the oncoming traffic, I quite obviously wouldn't have been annoyed.

Well someone wrote this:

DezB - Member

Don't give a toss about most of what is said, but when people come up with such dickish comments as

Shouty man has anger issues and is obviously looking for conflict. He's the type who will deliberately put themselves in danger "to prove a point"

I do feel inclined to respond.
I was just riding to work sbob. I presume you're looking for conflict with comments like that. Big difference is, where you're sat while you're doing it.

I'm not looking for conflict (although I enjoy a good argument), on the roads my main aim is to avoid conflict!

A car overtook you.
You then rode into the back of it.
You had plenty of time to stop.
So you either got so angry that you deliberately rode into it, or you were so incensed that you failed to brake in time.

Either way, it's not my comment that was "dickish", it's your behaviour.
Sort your attitude out.
If previous incidents had pissed you off that badly then you should have pulled over until you had regained your composure.

It's not like the Swift put you in danger, and you would have had to slow down anyway. You're getting all upset over nothing.

Ride safe.

Jonesy - Member

So what should have been the correct course of action for the motorist in that situation?

Hold the overtake until the hazard was cleared.

[i]I'm not looking for conflict (although I enjoy a good argument), on the roads my main aim is to avoid conflict![/i]

You say that. I say that.

You still don't get it, do you.
YOu can say my behaviour is dickish, I can say your comments are dickish (they are), there's no difference.
You sort your attitude out. You're telling me how to behave - I'm not telling anyone how to behave.
You're making assumptions about the situation in the video that are wrong. I know they are wrong because I was there and ride that way often.

Hold the overtake until the hazard was cleared

DezB would have had to slow down anyway due to the oncoming traffic at the pinch point

3 posts in a row full of clueless dickishness and still he doesn't stop.
If I would've been held up by the oncoming traffic, I quite obviously wouldn't have been annoyed

Dezb seriously............the only person that doesnt stop is you.

You are obviously passed any sort of realistic discussion, if you ever were in the first place and are just posting antagonistic key board warrior nonsense. I think it says quite a lot about you to be honest. Hopefully your next video will be played by a third party because we would all be better off.

How am I posting antagonistic keyboard warrior nonsense and people telling me how to behave aren't?
I'm only responding to what's been said, if it's wrong. It's not me who bumped the post today.

The actual overtake was one of the safest I've seen these days, plenty of room, nothing oncoming. Nothing like the usual idiots who squeeze past with inches to spare.

The poor lady's only error (apart from overtaking and daring to hold up someone who more than likely has issues) is that maybe she didn't know the road and didn't see or know that there was traffic/sign/bridge ahead until she'd virtually completed the overtake.

What else should she have done at this point to avoid the wrath of angry man?

Hate to think what would happen to the motorist who actually put DezB in a properly dangerous situation rather than just one of mild inconvenience. I'd imagine it'd be something like Michael Douglas in the film Falling Down!

DezB - Member

3 posts in a row full of clueless dickishness and still he doesn't stop.

Calm down, you'll burst a blood vessel.

If I would've been held up by the oncoming traffic, I quite obviously wouldn't have been annoyed.

From the video, it looks like I would have had to slow down anyway.
Your judgement may be different, but from the video I'm not likely to be trusting your judgement!

All this because you got held up a bit.
Calm down and grow up.

Stay safe. 🙂

I can understand the frustration and the outburst, I'm sure most people on here would admit to the odd FFS on their commute.

It's the riding into the back of the car intentionally that I've a problem with… it's not proving any point it's just making cyclists look like ****s.

If it was a builders van with a couple of 6 foot blokes would you have managed to get the anchors on in time... just a thought.

DezB - Member

You say that. I say that.

You still don't get it, do you.
YOu can say my behaviour is dickish, I can say your comments are dickish (they are), there's no difference.
You sort your attitude out. You're telling me how to behave - I'm not telling anyone how to behave.
You're making assumptions about the situation in the video that are wrong. I know they are wrong because I was there and ride that way often.

Only one of us is getting shouty and sweary on the roads Dez.
Only one of us is getting shouty and sweary on the forum.

Shall we put it to the vote who needs to sort out their attitude?

Thought not.

Calm the **** down, for your own sake.

WO HOO its the four horsemen of the trollacylpse v DEZ

Its rather sad , yet so predictably STW, to see all cycling car discussion end up as idiotic key board warrior troll fests led by the ignorant feining outrage in order to provoke others

MLEH

is that maybe she didn't know the road and didn't see or know that there was traffic/sign/bridge ahead until she'd virtually completed the overtake.

I like the way you said this before as well just for the reaction like

hold up someone who more than likely has issues)

I best leave before all the testosterone goes to my head and I end up as stupid as the ones left on here.

Only one of us is getting shouty and sweary on the forum.

Shall we put it to the vote who needs to sort out their attitude?

Thought not.

Calm the **** down, for your own sake

What are those asterixeed out words if not swearing
LOLZ trolls be a trolling

Oh and because I know facts matter plenty of posters said they would have sworn just like dez did

At least his was a reaction rather than premeditated.

Ah, is that what it is? I'm being "trolled" 😆
Wow, no wonder I'm [i]shouty and sweary on the forum[/i]. 🙄

[copy & paste]
Reality is that way: ---->

What are those asterixeed out words if not swearing

Way to go Junkers, that's adding to the discussion! 🙂
You define trolling.

Ps. it was just four asterixes Junkyard, they represent peace, harmony, honesty and respect.

PPs. I love you. 😳

I'm off to work, try and stay calm in my absence.

Oh noes, not the trollppocalypse!!

Not even close to angry somewhere between bemused and amused as to why an adult would bother to just try and annoy another for fun. sadly the inner you is a ****

I used it just the same as you and am being just as honest 😛

[quote=sbob ] if the courts and CPS were [s]a huge amount more robust on motoring offences than they actually are[/s] run by a frothing mentalist like TJ, that would be sufficient ground for a prosecution for careless driving.
Reality is that way: ---->

Really? So you don't think that breaking several bits of guidance in the HC "falls below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver"? How much of the HC is it reasonable for a careful and competent driver to ignore?

Qudratrollasauraus

A four headed Greek mythalogical dinosaur with four heads, no backbone, tiny brain and webbed feet . Usually found under bridges or on cycling forums, appears to know everything about everything and is never wrong

[quote=Junkyard ]WO HOO its the four horsemen of the trollacylpse v DEZ

Oh FFS! I know you don't do spelling on here, but I also know you can - if you're going to invent a new meme (which I'm sure will be handy in future) you could try a bit harder 😉

four horsemen of the [b]trollocalypse [/b]

Really? So you don't think that breaking several bits of guidance in the HC "falls below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver"? How much of the HC is it reasonable for a careful and competent driver to ignore?

Just as a matter of interest (and because I'm not sure what my answer would be), what would we have thought if that had been a T junction with a stop sign, instead of a pinch point?

[quote=pondo ]I don't know if it's specifically mentioned, but I'm pretty sure that actively piloting your vehicle into the back of the car in front in a temper falls below said standard.

Whataboutery. I was specifically discussing the standard of the overtake - I don't think that was provoked by dez riding into the back of the car (which I've already said was wrong - that too would be a similar offence, though it would be hardly difficult to defend as impossible to prove "beyond reasonable doubt" that he was able to stop in time after the overtake), but maybe I'm not seeing the video the same as you.

Just as a matter of interest (and because I'm not sure what my answer would be), what would we have thought if that had been a T junction with a stop sign, instead of a pinch point?

Concerning the standard of driving involved in the overtake? Pretty much the same principle applies.

Fair play. Was just thinking, just going by the video, I probably would have been less annoyed if it was a T junction, as I'd have to stop for it anyhow. In this instance, I'd have just had to stop a car's-length-and-a-bit sooner.

But you'd have then been stuck waiting behind the car, when the chances are you could have got straight out if it hadn't been there (I wouldn't necessarily strictly obey stop signs on a bike - so shoot me). Not sure if you've never experienced cars overtaking you just before junctions - I've had it loads and it's the main reason I'm empathising with dez here, as I don't think I've had a car overtake before a pinch point. It's blinking irritating.

Still going? Jeez!

Right, maybe to stop some more "what coulda shoulda woulda" beens about why the overtake was bad. You probably can't tell some of these things from the little clip
1. I could tell instantly she braked that she knew the pinch-point was there as it wasn't in sight at that point
2. Her braking started before she'd got back into her own lane and the slow-down appeared more severe than it does in the vid.
2. It wasn't a T-junction so that is completely irrelevant
3. I can easily fit through the pinch point with a car (or even lorry) coming the other way, so wouldn't have needed to stop if she hadn't overtaken incorrectly. (Funnily enough most times cars have waited for me there anyway, as they've just turned into the road and are probably still in 2nd gear)
4. [i]She[/i] didn't need to stop! She was at the pinch point before the on-coming car. (For the same reason as above). You definitely can't tell that from the video.
5. (ok one more) I wouldn't have needed to stop or even slow down if the driver of the Suzuki had waited behind me and gone around 18mph for about 10 seconds, after which she could have overtaken me quite easily, safely and without holding anyone up.

So in that instance of yet another pillock unnecessarily hindering my progress, I swore in a few seconds of annoyance and tapped* the back bumper to make a point. She noticed, but just drove off. Make of that what you will.

*[b]RAMMED[/b] like a magnificent Hora weapon. Blasted her up the rear. SMASHED! wildly up her back-end! Whatever!

Put this to bed now please!

Careful dez, you get in trouble round here for defending yourself from the trolls.

But you'd have then been stuck waiting behind the car, when the chances are you could have got straight out if it hadn't been there (I wouldn't necessarily strictly obey stop signs on a bike - so shoot me). Not sure if you've never experienced cars overtaking you just before junctions - I've had it loads and it's the main reason I'm empathising with dez here, as I don't think I've had a car overtake before a pinch point. It's blinking irritating.

* It's all relative, hey... 🙂

I agree it makes for an interesting discussion, better than lots of stuff further up the thread. I didn't quote this before as it wasn't relevant:

[quote=HC rule 167]DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example
...
approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road

There is indeed a grey line, but I think it's in pretty much the same place in both situations. If you're braking before you've completed the overtake you've quite clearly crossed it. If at the point you overtake even the best driver in the world wouldn't know that they were likely to hold up the cyclist you're the other side of it. The line is somewhere in between those scenarios.