"decent URT bike"

Oxymoron.

GB

Well, it's like "Irish Summer" or "Reasonable Politician".

lots of halford specials are URT but i doubt you'll find a decent one. its a design thats been scrapped for fairly good reasons

Isn't GT I drive about as near as you get now? Yes, I know it's not a URT.

By the way, are you looking for low pivot URT like the Y-Glide or High pivot like the Matra? Both were designed to do different things.

[url= http://www.maverickbike.com/main/do/products/productID/4 ]it looks like a URT to me[/url]

I had a Trek and always wanted a Klein. I want either for general riding along not hard-core mountain biking. I would probably end up singlespeeding it anyway.
Oh, I have access to an i-Drive mk.1, ok but too fancyful.

Maverick isn't a URT - there's a pivot between the BB and rear axle.

There were the Mantras, Trek Y bikes (plus Fisher equivalent).

And, er....

GB

Maverick, i-drive, mongoose: all semi URT and thus semi crap 😛

If you want a URT, why not just get a suspension seatpost - same effect.

For that matter, the BB on the Maverick isn't on the main triangle either.

Mongooses (Mongeese?) have something close-ish to URT

[img] [/img]

Mongoose's take on the i-Drive is cool but not wanted. Anybody remembers Rocky Mountain using URT? It was perfect - niche, expensive, looked good, well.. -ish-ish)

Maverick, i-drive, mongoose: all semi URT and thus semi crap

what didn't you like about the Maverick you've had experience of riding off road?

RM Pipeline - was an attempt an an AM bike. FAIL.

Ibis Szazbo as well - same idea as a Mantra.

GB

You know how UHT milk is not as nice as real milk?

Well, the same thing applies to URT suspension.

Thanks, Gee. Now, who owns one and wants me to take her home?

Get an old Trek Y Bike.... I have seen them go VERY cheap on Fleabay! I had a Y-22 years ago and once I had my riding style sorted it was great! Actually come to think of it I was a lot faster back then as well

Kona A must be about the closest you can get now

I've ridden an A for some years and sold it last year for silly money.

Trek Y-50 with the Hawaii paint job and full XTR has to be the one to get. Still FAIL though.

The Fisher was called a Joshua.

GB

So, you want a bike that's squidgy when you sit down and not-squidgy when you don't. Suspension seatpost on a hardtail?

Hmmm, suspension that slightly stiffens up automatically when you stand up and mash the pedals up a hill. Whats not to like?

SSP

They're not the same as a sus seatpost though I can see how you'd think that if you didn't really understand suspension 🙂

The problem is that depending on design they stiffen when you get out of the saddle - some do more than others. Ditto bobbing when pedalling unless you slow the shock down.

I have a [URL= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/klein-mantra-sweetspot-urt-with-a-rigid-fork-some-feedback ]Mantra[/URL] fwiw. I also have two more modern full sussers which are definitely better suspension bikes though the Mantra is great under power when out of the saddle eg rides like a hardtail

I owned a Mantra for a bit - biggest letdown ever. I always wanted one, finally got one, then...

It was terrifying. Whenever you rode through a whoop, the suspension compressed, the head angle slackened and the steering went very, very slow. When you rode over a dropoff, the suspension fully extended, the head angle steepened and the steering went very, very quick. Just what you need...

But, SSP, what about when you want to hammer downhill out of the saddle and the suspension doesn't work...?

I'll stick to a hardtail, at least it knows what sorta bike it is.

(Souce: I used to have a 1998 Kona King Kikapu that was AMAZING when I was sat down but pants when I stood up. Many bikes later I had 2005 SJ FSR 120 which was truly brilliant suspension. Ah...)

[img] [/img]
(It didn't make a [i]very[/i] good DH bike...)

Niche enough? Worra piece of crap.

[img] [/img]

Coogan, that looks purrfect, makes my legs weaken. Me want now!

Oh yes! I'm sure we're all [i]begging[/i] for a "Show us yer orange URT bikes" thread!

😈

Are slingshot still going? I think they were URT off the top of my head.

Looks like they are.

Now, who owns one and wants me to take her home?

My god I think he's serious....

If you are, I may have the bike for you.
Let's talk..
But not here. It's too....... public.....

I am serious, seriously.
My email's as per profile, in all seriousness.

I think he might be serious!

How about a blue one then?

[img] [/Img]

Yeah, lovely! I really want one!

The thing about URTs is that they just don't work. They came about as a result of designers trying to stop chain activated suspension action that badly affected early FS bikes. They sort of cured that sure enough, but you end up with a bike with a pivot between two of the three contact points - Hands and feet. So, when standing, not only are your feet and any weight on them part of the unsprung mass of the bike, but you actually have a pivot in the middle of the frame over which you have no control and the shock stands no chance of controlling due to the aforementioned massive increase in unsprung weight. If, when you're seated, the shock is correctly sprung and damped, as soon as you stand you change the sprung/unsprung weight ratio, and the shock simply cannot cope.
The Holy Grail of efficient suspenstion is low unsprung weight and a comparitively stiff chassis. This applied to any wheeled vehicle. URTs are simply (and I choose my words very carefully here) complete shit. They are an evolutionary backwater that was tried, failed, and led to nothing. Unlike, say, single pivots which started out crap and have been refined to the Nth degree until they work superbly. The basic concept of a URT is, and always will be, just plain wrong. This is why they died. Fact.

PP you're pretty much right but equally your statements are more from motorbikes which don't have the issues of power delivery that proper bikes do. Mtbers will sometimes be willing to compromise suspension performance for better power delivery - propedal does exactly that no matter how
much the marketeers would like you to believe otherwise.

URTs are massively compromised suspension designs especially nowadays but equally for some applications (eg ss full sus) they actually work quite well. Fwiw the unstrung weight thing isn't so simple anyway as the bb's distance from the pivot entirely affects how much effective unstrung weight there actually is plus it's not static unsprung weight (since you move your body weight around) which further complicates it.

Old tech, superceeded and so on? Definitely. Completely sh!t? No but you do have to adjust for the problems inherent with it.

I stand by my view. URTs solved one problem the other designs had in their early days and created two that none of them had. And since then, refinement if the other designs has removed or reduced said problem to an acceptable level. There is simply no place for URTs any more, hence their death.

Unsprung weight will be more important on an MTB too, being as your body weight us FAR more than the bike alone ( unlike a motorbike) and that's what you're transferring.....

I well remember even the mag reviews at the time saying they were severely compromised......

Agreed, no place for them nowadays but that in itself doesn't make them sh!t - just heavily compromised in comparison as we seem to agree on...

Unsprung weight - yes, it's important of course but as I said for URTs it's just not as simple as saying that because the rider's weight is applied to the unsprung section of the frame that it's the same as having a single pivot with a swingarm whose weight is similar to that of a rider

The effective unsprung weight on URTs is largely about how much the suspension movement moves the BB vertically upwards since weight is the 'unsprung' mass rather than a fixed suspension structure. If there was no/very little vertical movement (eg a pivot right above the BB and just behind it then the unsprung weight from the rider would be next to nothing... Moments of inertia and all that...

Going back to Mavericks/etc rider weight still does affect the suspension but the design means that the effect is small and insignificant - just like the scenario I described above.

As an armchair pundit I can see that the suspension will work well right up to the point where you have to stand on the pedals on a descent - the very point where you want the suspension to work.

I'd like to be proved wrong by those who've actually owned them though, how did they work?

PJM - you're right - typically URTs stiffen when you stand on a descent - not ideal but worth the compromise for some for the fact that they climb well out of the saddle and the suspension is ok when in the saddle.

That said, since you can ride a hardtail downhill happily enough, it's not like that makes it unrideable. As ever it's about compromises. For some they were great (seemingly this is the OP!), for others they didn't make sense.

there is one plus thing about the URT, that is the fact there is zero chain growth so they can be used as a s/s

if that is a plus point 😕

I'd love to have a Mantra...

to hang on the wall (or ride around slowly posing on). Would have to be the right fade paintjob though - that blue one just doesn't do it.

Yeah, except that you usually have to still use a tensioner since few actually have horizontal dropouts so you could just as easily do the same on any other full susser (assuming a sprung tensioner)

As I alluded to, they work well for SS because of the compromises - when honking along out of the saddle as you have to do at times on a SS, the suspension doesn't bob to any noticeable degree. On a geared more conventional full susser, you'd just use a more sensible gear to work to the suspension's strengths and spin smoothly.

Aracer - it's going to be repainted to something more 'Klein' 😉

This thread does remind me a bit of people who say things like 'You'll die if you ride at a trail centre with less than 6" travel' though 😉

The compromise is obvious though, often you need suspension performance at the point when your body stiffens and you stand on the pedals. I can imagine that if you know what you're doing then the suspension works okay, but if you show it any fear it's over the bars time.

Having said that, my old Enduro sags under power and the head angle steepens slightly when you stand and back off too.

I have an enduro too - it's kind of the complete opposite of the Mantra as you pointed out 🙂 Makes life interesting 🙂

Paint job on that Klien is a winner though - there's one at an LBS in Canterbury that looks the cats in purple.

I want my Enduro painted in that shade.

Mine's going to be metallic purple. With gold Klein logos, to match [url= http://www.lvis.org.uk ]team colours[/url] 🙂

Paint job on that Klien is a winner though - there's one at an LBS in Canterbury that looks the cats in purple.

*awaits shouting*

Whatever happened to Klein anyway? Didn't they get bought out by Trek and went all Ned Flanders?

Having searched, something like this
[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]
In the same shade as that Klein...

Clubber wrote, "typically URTs stiffen when you stand on a descent - not ideal but worth the compromise for some for the fact that they climb well out of the saddle and the suspension is ok when in the saddle."

An Idrive would climb well out of the saddle and work better on the descents... Or, tbh, any number of other suspension designs. Or any susser ever with a lockout. If it was the only solution to this problem, sure, but it's not.

Yep, true enough but idrives are heavy and have some funny anti-squat under power - compromises again.

Like I said, URTs have been superceeded. Lockout is one solution and with remote, the solution I have on one of my other full sussers 😉

They were shit. FACT

Lockout is one solution and with remote, the solution I have on one of my other full sussers

Scott then? Yeah, that is a good option. I just don't trust the Scott shocks though.

Had mine 4 years and not had any problems at all - shock has been serviced a couple of times, but just routine stuff (it's a Genius RC, so may be a little different to other bigger Scotts - I still love it and wouldn't even think about changing for something else).

My wanting an URT bike isn't too dissimilar to another person's wish for an old MG. Not the greatest but wanted.

Check the details of description. Carbon Fibre? DH? Slightly damaged BB?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GARY-FISHER-LEVEL-BETTY_W0QQitemZ260528582546QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR?hash=item3ca8b6af92