[Closed] undertaking on bikes

..........i'll pop the kettle on.

it's a day off at TdF, darksiders are going nuts.

I got sued when I did exactly that, she had witnesses saying it was my fault. The actual law didn't come into it, which suggests it's a grey area!

Cycle paths tend to be on the nearside after all, so there's bound to be undertaking going on, particularly in heavy traffic!

Proceed with caution............

Well on my London commute it seems to be each man for himself and anything goes.

I got run into by two bikes one my first day when I slowed for a red light!

trailmonkey I'll get the hob knobs

The quickest way to get dead on a roadbike is undertaking, especially big lorries. It's the worst kind of stupid amateurism exhibited on a daily basis by numpty commuters.

Slipping up the inside of a stationary line of traffic is ok, with caution, but NEVER EVER up the inside of an artic unless it's properly stuck in traffic.

Getting overtaken by a cock who then turns left is a different matter altogether, but your safety is in your hands so have a look; it's not called a 'lifesaver' for nothing.

If you get hit, it's your fault.

There's no need for a motorist to check for some idiot flying down the inside before turning left, nor is there any need for a passenger to check behind before opening the door to get out.

I'm not saying don't do it (although I never do on my commute, I go on the outside) but if you do, take care.

When did artic's come into this!?

In my case I was riding up the inside of a line of stationary traffic in a leafy Surrey suburb, someone flashes a woman coming the other way, who's turning right into her road, she does so, I undertake the 'flashing' car, and nail the passenger side of the car turning across me.

I'd have said I was in the right, but, not surprisingly, the car drivers disagreed!

its not a loaded topic i am a witness the two things i saw were chance legstrong doing warp speed past me and abit further down the road the interaction of two bodies involved in the process of rapid deceleration

i was always told undertaking was naughty on the motorway but admittedly i think everyone has done it once or thrice

[i]In my case I was riding up the inside of a line of stationary traffic in a leafy Surrey suburb, someone flashes a woman coming the other way, who's turning right into her road, she does so, I undertake the 'flashing' car, and nail the passenger side of the car turning across me.[/i]

I'd say that was your fault; undertaking is a risky business, and it's up to you to keep a look out for exactly that kind of situation.

The other driver was looking at a line of STATIONARY traffic....

It was fairly irrelevant, she waited 10 months to sue me (presumably until her insurance renewal came through and she lost her NCB!), I filed a counter suit with BCF and we both got half our claim.

Must admit I don't tend to do it anymore, over taking is generally a better bet! It's certainly shakey legally, flashing someone does not mean it's clear for them to go, and I was on the main road, she was turning across it.

I mention artics because it's really important; people do die because they mess with them.

With caution and slowly. Previous editions of the highway code explicitly allowed undertaking but the current one does not - nor does it outlaw it.

Expect every car driver to do the most stupid thing possible. weigh up the risks and proceed with caution.

Undertaking is dodgy (artics can't see you by the way and have a habit of turning left and turning cyclists into goo). I'll only do it if the traffic is properly stationary and there is plenty of space (it's amazing how many stationary drivers will suddenly close up the gap by moving up closer to the car infront and moving left at the same time).

Cycle lanes are an interresting one though, not sure where you'd stand if you undertook a car turning left, actually you probably wouldn't be standing you'd be flying.

at your own risk innit - eyes peeled with the precision of a hawks. I always go on the outside when I can, if the traffic starts to speed up too fast then switch back to the inside and let them overtake you.

ahh the flashing the headlights ploy... been caught out by that one before - and I was overtaking on the outside at the time! Good job I had a rucksack full of clothes for a comfy landing.

Kev

Seems legit to me if there is a cycle lane only (unless traffic as good as stopped). No idea what the law is!

BigJohn - Member

If you get hit, it's your fault.

There's no need for a motorist to check for some idiot flying down the inside before turning left, nor is there any need for a passenger to check behind before opening the door to get out.

The highway code seems to disagree with this (although personally I think undertaking is daft in most circumstances, I'll always overtake where possible)

[i]you [b]MUST[/b] ensure you do not hit anyone when you open your door. Check for cyclists or other traffic[/i]

[i]It is often difficult to see motorcyclists and cyclists, especially when they are coming up from behind, coming out of junctions, at roundabouts, overtaking you or filtering through traffic. Always look out for them before you emerge from a junction; they could be approaching faster than you think. When turning right across a line of slow-moving or stationary traffic, look out for cyclists or motorcyclists on the inside of the traffic you are crossing. Be especially careful when turning, and when changing direction or lane. Be sure to check mirrors and blind spots carefully.[/i]

What tyres for carrying a coffin?

Is it just me that saw the thread of this title and thought it related to extreme use of Kona Ute/Big Dummy?

cyclist's fault

not that i wish him any harm or anything, i hope he's ok, but passing on the inside is fraught with danger, and crashing into the car in front is clearly not accounting for one's stopping distance and speed

ultimately you have to give way to traffic that's ahead of you and on your right just like everyone else. you crash into them just because you want to pass, it's your fault

IMO road awareness is a 2 way responsiblity. motorists need to watch out for cyclists and give them space, and cyclists should make sure they're visible and don't hang around in people's blind spots

Beat me to it, i thought it would be the ultimate Niche utility bike thread also.

Undertaking is down right dangerous and done at speed is just asking for an accident. My method of cycling is assume that no one can see you and anything can happen.

Surely if there is a cycle lane in place, undertaking is okay? Does the law not stand by that? I thought the law for cyclists was pretty sound unless your hopping pavements down one ways streets, or running red lights?

That said I commuted in central London for 10 years and worked as a cycle courier for a couple of those, and anything goes... It really is down to the individual riding, to have all their wits about them and their spider senses turned up to the max! Or you may end up with a flat head 🙄

I got sued when I did exactly that, she had witnesses saying it was my fault.

you can stop this happening easyly

dont ride on the road lol!!!

i used to be a london messenger and i was contantly being knocked off my push iron, but i had good cover and won every time!!!

i gave up to do a less dangerous job so i joined the army!

undertaking is clearly dangerous stuff, but you can still get clipped by a driver turning left without looking even if you're not intending to undertake if they turn off without indicating when you're not expecting it. you have to so vigilant all the time.

Defensive riding includes doing things like looking in every car as you pass to see if you can anticipate the drivers moves - position of hands on the wheel and so on. Look at the tops of the front wheels - thats where you see movement first. Look for gaps that cars coming the other way might turn right across you thru. Look in the wing mirrors to see where the driver is looking.

Filter slowly - not much above walking pace so you can stop quickly and if you do hit there is not much momentum. I tend to filter ( left, right or between the lanes depending where there is most room) only when the cars are stationary or almost stationary and looking well ahead at the traffic lights ( or whatever is causing the tailback) to anticipate the cars moving off.

As the cars start to move off slip into line - usually 2/3 of the way across the rear bumper of the car out to the right. Look right thru the car to the car ahead to anticipate slowing or speeding up.

Vans and the like block sightlines. Extra caution required.

Artics and other big trucks - going up the inside is absolutely perilous. Be certain they are not going to move off as you are alongside and if you do get caught as they move off be prepared to bail out and stop - even dive onto the pavement.

No one else is responsible for your safety - you are.

[i]I'd have said I was in the right, but, not surprisingly, the car drivers disagreed![/i]

I disagree too, as would the Highway Code and any sane individual. You're behind a car which has slowed/stopped (for a reason), it's up to you to assess that it's safe to pass - whether overtaking or undertaking - and clearly you didn't.

You don't get immunity from having to brake just because you don't have an engine.

njee20 when you see a gap in the stationary traffic ahead of you and it's opposite a turning you can be pretty sure that the car at the front of the queue has left that gap to allow others cars to leave and enter the side road. You can also be pretty sure that other drivers will avail themselves of the courtesy and will not look properly if someone has waved them on or flashed them. If I do undertake then it's very slowly and I never undertake a proffessional driver!

You're behind a car which has slowed/stopped (for a reason), it's up to you to assess that it's safe to pass - whether overtaking or undertaking - and clearly you didn't.

Worth pointing out that some bits in the HC relating to cyclists are about avoiding getting hit by a car when it's the car's fault (the bit Nick failed to do).

the law doesnt come into it my my mind.

you KNOW the drivers arnt going to look for you, maybe they should, maybe they shouldnt (because we shouldnt be undertaking perhaps?) but at the end of the day, its the cyclist that ends up dead, and the car with a dented wing.
and 95% of drivers dont even know its an issue, let alone take it into consideration.

99% of drivers a ****ing morons in my mind, but then im a driving nazi and would have corpral punishment for anyone who parks with a tyre even touching the white lines

i avoid undertaking as a default, only cutting in if its clear there is a very low possibility of a car turning in, and then being very cautious/defensive, and keeping a gear i can stamp on to get out of the way.

I tend to undertake all the time but my route is unique in that it's full of lots of queueing traffic and next to no junctions for them to turn into. I tend to undertake most of the way to work (I'd never get there on time otherwise) but I just take it easy and keep my eyes peeled. If you're going to tuck and stay off the brakes you probably deserve your Darwin award you've got coming...

I don't find overtaking any safer because driver seem just as likely to pull away and suddenly drift to the outside of the lane pushing you into oncoming...

Bit of common-sense from drivers and cyclists and we'd all be fine...

aracer because the safe gap they have left is opposite a side road. That should make you think shouldn't it?

The point isn't whose in the right or wrong the point is who is going to get hurt.

I don't really think it matters if you are undertaking or overtaking, everything goes. All the cyclist really needs to know is who is most likley to get hurt. With this in mind you can do most things in reasonable safety, obviously you can't account for every idiot out there but its definitely possible to limit the risks with a bit of sense.

Does anyone know if there has been a case on a cycle lane yet that's gone to court?

The point isn't whose in the right or wrong the point is who is going to get hurt.

The way I see it, it's very simple. Very clear cut.
A bicycle is a vehicle and is therefore bound by the same rules as all the other vehicles on the road. As much as we like to think otherwise, a cyclist is not exempt from this.
So, overtaking?
It's simply illegal to overtake on the inside, isn't it? If a car did it, you'd complain, right? If plod saw said car, he'd get a ticket for his troubles. End of. On your own head be it.
Now, that said, all cyclists undertake in traffic don't they? I certainly do. So you have to realise that by doing so, you are in the wrong... every time, no matter what.
So do it with extreme caution ESPECIALLY if you are anywhere near a junction. Junctions aren't hard to spot, nor are cars, but a cyclist is and if you appear in the wrong place at the wrong time, it's your tough luck, buddy. And undertaking HGVs is plain dumb. That's one thing I steer very clear of.
I a lot of circumstances, long queues of traffic are easier to overtake on the outside anyway, as there's more room. Just make yourself look wide, keep yer eyes peeled for motorbikes coming the other way, and hoon it down the white line. Very satisfying and good training if the traffic starts to move and you have to out-sprint a car to pull in. 🙂

Reading this thread I’m struck by two things that there is a perception that anything goes and secondly a lack of road craft. As a road user either on a bike or in the car the most important skill is hazard perception and been able to anticipate what other are going to do. This is more so as a cyclist you are vulnerable.
Drivers rightly or wrongly do not expect other road users coming down there inside so tend not to look. Nor do they tend to watch their rear view mirrors in standing /slow traffic so tend not to be that aware of what’s happening about them.
In slow moving /standing traffic I will overtake on the outside, where other road user expect traffic and can see me, cutting inside when they start moving at a similar speed to myself.
As a group cycles need to be far more (and visibly) aware of the rules of the road, we need to earn the respect of other road users (yes I know were there by right and cars have permissive access). We need to be setting the example not flouting the rules by running red lights and putting ourselves in dangerous positions

Peter puts that very well. 🙂

It's simply illegal to overtake on the inside, isn't it?

I suppose I should point out that I do almost always go down the outside given the choice though.

breakneckspeed - Member

Reading this thread I’m struck by two things that there is a perception that anything goes and secondly a lack of road craft. As a road user either on a bike or in the car the most important skill is hazard perception and been able to anticipate what other are going to do. This is more so as a cyclist you are vulnerable.

I so agree with you.

and hoon it down the white line. Very satisfying and good training if the traffic starts to move and you have to out-sprint a car to pull in.

this shows it all too clearly. If you are anticipating properly what is happening ahead you never have to sprint to pull in between the cars - as they speed up you slot in between them as the reach your speed.

You should be constantly looking ahead to anticipate as well as looking at the cars around you.

as i see it:
its illegal to undertake.
to change lane, speed up around somebody and cut in again.

its not illegal if your already in that lane, and that lane is moving faster and you happen to pass them
thats thier own stupid fault for being in the wrong lane (motorway lanes i mean)

a cycle lane isnt a "lane" in the same respect, and shouldnt be treated as one!
its more of a reservation, to give you room within an existing lane.
they shouldnt be painted across junctions, they should run out, and restart after the junction, in my opinion, to highlight that its not "your own lane"

if your going to look at it purely on a basis of who is wrong and who is right, and not take into account manuverability and injury, the cycle is just another vehicle!

if you ran into somebody in a car, because they slowed to turn left, its your own lookout, and the law will say you wernt paying proper attention.
the same applies for cyclists.

by law a cyclist should ride the centre of the lane, and be treated as any other road user.
you dont get motor bikes shooting up the inside of people who are turning left do you?
they fit in the gap.

It's simply illegal to overtake on the inside, isn't it

There is a difference between over taking and moving up the inside of slow moving or stopped traffic.
If a driver was to pull out (left or right turn) without signaling for a second or two before hand I would say that they were in the wrong should and accident occur.