[Closed] Understeer, anyone had it, causes/solutions?

Too slack a head angle is usually the cause of wheelbarrow handling. Forks too long?

wheelbarrow handling.

He's not talking about slack/slow handling. He's talking about understeer, which is entirely different.

Personally, yes I have had it and I don't like it. For me it was crappy tyres that did it, and I've found that one tyre that works well on a certain bike, might be no good on another.....

But it could be poor bike set up (Not enough weight on the front, frame too big) tyres pressures, suspension settings (Too harsh) or any number of other things

You cannot get understeer on a two wheeler. I think you need to define a little more what is happening. People often use the term understeer but it is not correct.

Are you getting the front wheel washing out all the time?

Hardtail or F/S ??????

Is the front end wandering /skipping ???

what sort of forks ?

I could never work out why, but this was the problem with my old Stumpjumper FSR. I suspect their wasn't enough weight over the back, which I don't quite understand as when descending on it, it always felt as if I was being pitched over the bars; the two things seem to contradict each other.

But on some highly un-scientific tests, if I made a concious decision to get my weight forward and 'push' the tyre into a corner, it seemed to bite better. Always difficult to tell if this is a genuine result, or whether it's actually an increase in determination to make the corner...?

PP - I think that too long a fork as well as creating the slow handling you mention, can also lead to understeer as described. The longer fork puts you further back and you end up with even less weight over the front wheel.
I knackered my Judy fork the first year I went to Spain & borrowed a 130mm Marz fork. This greatly improved the feel of the bike going downhill, but on anything that was flat or even slightly up, the front end just did not want to go round corners & would just wander off in a straight line.

Isn't understeer simply when the front wheel(s) have more grip than the back (with oversteer being the reverse)? In which case as long as you have at least one front and one back wheel, then you can get understeer?

On a bike it's felt by the front wheel pushing wide of the turn, i.e washing out, i.e. when the front wheel has reached the limit of traction and breaks grip, i.e. understeer.

As it's a new bike it may simply be down to you not having found your balance on the bike; your body may be used to sitting in one position and you need to shift your weight forward a little to weight the front wheel more in turns so that it has more grip. I've just built up a new bike and its a good 30mm longer in the wheelbase and a little longer in the top tube so I am finding that I have more opportunity to move my weight forward and weight the front wheel appropriately.

You cannot get understeer on a two wheeler. I think you need to define a little more what is happening. People often use the term understeer but it is not correct.

I see your point, but if the op is having to put more into turning his bikes into corners or getting the feeling that the bike is not turning is that not understeer?

Do you mean front wheel drift, while the back end still grips? I've never really had that can only think its bad front tyre choice.

understeer turning in and front wheel not gripping. Shit tyre choice, To long a fork,slack head angle weight all over back end.

I should have written that I managed to improve the situation slightly by moving the seat forward on the rails & getting a stem with slightly more reach, but more importantly a lot less angle, which put my weight over the bars more.

TJ - can you explain why a 2-wheeled vehicle cannot understeer?

Assuming it's not the tyre, you need to get more weight over the front. Bars, stem, seat, seat post need a fiddling.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics ]i'm not reading all that[/url]

Oversteer = back wheel breaks traction and steps out = FUN!
Understeer = Front Wheel breaks traction and goes straight on = BORING!

geetee1972 - other way round.

Understeer is when the front doesn't have enough grip and the front end ploughs on.
Oversteer is then the front has grip but the back doesn't causing the back to come round

PP - I think that too long a fork as well as creating the slow handling you mention, can also lead to understeer as described.

Yeah, that occoured to me after I posted too, but I've not had the time to edit or comment since then. 🙂

You cannot get understeer on a two wheeler

Sorry TJ, you usually seem to know your stuff but on this occasion you're 100% wrong. 🙂

Definition of understeer
[i]Understeer is a term for a handling condition in which during cornering the circular path of the vehicle's motion is of a greater radius than the circle indicated by the direction its wheels are pointed. The effect is opposite to that of oversteer. In simpler words understeer is the condition in which the vehicle does not follow the trajectory the driver is trying to impose while taking the corner because the effective slip angle at the front is larger than that at the rear, instead following a less curved trajectory[/i]

So, if you're front tyre starts to slide before the rear, that's understeer. I'd imagine you've had it happen. I imagine every MTBer in the world has at some point 'lost the front end' at some point. The problem being when this happens too readily, at too slow a speed. Then something is wrong and you have to do something about it, as our OP has found.

I must be sooo slow the above 5-6 appeared whilst I did this:

Put more power down! but more seriously - My SS understeered half of yesterday morning, pumped up the front tyre after snow riding, bad back means I am less willing to weight the front wheel and very muddy - slippy conditions.
As a motorcycle instructor we used the term understeer. But I agreed we need more info.....

Wiki
'[i]Several schemes have been devised to rate the handling of bikes, particularly motorcycles.[6]
The roll index is the ratio between steering torque and roll or lean angle.
The acceleration index is the ratio between steering torque and lateral or centripetal acceleration.
The steering ratio is the ratio between the theoretical turning radius based on ideal tire behavior and the actual turning radius.[6] [u]Values less than one, where the front wheel side slip is greater than the rear wheel side slip, are described as under-steering[/u]; equal to one as neutral steering; and greater than one as over-steering. Values less than zero, in which the front wheel must be turned opposite the direction of the curve due to much greater rear wheel side slip than front wheel have been described as counter-steering. Riders tend to prefer neutral or slight over-steering.[6] Car drivers tend to prefer under-steering.[/i]

I experienced this a lot in the snow. To me it was washout and put it down to snowy conditions

Had my first dry run yesterday and it was fine

Sorry TJ, you usually seem to know your stuff but on this occasion you're 100% wrong.

[img] http://washford.scene7.com/is/image/Washford/400-415109?$prod$ [/img]

[img] [/img]

Surely washout = front tyre not prescribing desired path = understeer? Doesn't matter how it occurs, if your front tyre doesn't turn as sharply as you want it to, it is understeering.

Peter - a two wheeler when in the turn has no steering angle above a very slow speed - in order to decrease the radius of the turn you steer the opposite way to the way you are turning.

So - to turn left you actually steer to the right. The bike tips into the turn by gyroscopic precession and by the fact the contact patch is now to the right of the COG. The steering returns to the straight ahead position. The turn is maintained by camber thrust, if you want to tighten the turn to the left you steer to the right again.

Therefore if the bike is running wide it is a totally different mechanism to understeer as understeer is when a car is turning less sharply that the steering angle. As a bike has no steering angle when in a turn then it cannot understeer.

all this only applies at speed.

Qwrety, I did my homework on understeer before I opened my gob. 🙂

More on bike understeer

[i] Because the front and rear tires can have different slip angles due to weight distribution, tire properties, etc., bikes can experience understeer or oversteer. Of the two, understeer, in which the front wheel slides more than the rear wheel, is more dangerous[/i]

From here (A pretty good explanation of all types of bike handling IMO)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics

Washout is understeer to the point of total directional input?

In really muddy conditions I think understeer is not so uncommon though on dry(ish) conditions I only really can think of experiencing it with an underinflated front tire.

Ok I took the OP to meean his bike runs wide, washes out the front end etc. The term understeer might not technically be correct but I reckon that's what he meant.

So I stand by my first post.

Oh and by the way - Up yours!

Sorry TJ, you usually seem to know your [s]stuff [/s] opinion but on this occasion you're 100% wrong

The gyroscopic turning affect employed by motorbikes/bicycle is [i]how [/i]they turn at speed.
It doesn't mean a motorbike or bicycle cannot understeer.

"You cannot get understeer on a two wheeler"

Hmm. If you tip the bike into the corner at speed but don't press into the front wheel, it takes a wide arc, arguably understeer. If you press sharply into it, it carves a tighter arc. I over-did this yesterday after being too chilled and nearly overshooting a turn. I almost high-sided as the bike suddenly whipped into it. I need to get better at this!

You won't ever hear motorcycle racers say understeer, they'll call it [i]pushing the front[/i]. It's mostly semantics, and I really don't care because we all know what it means.

I am just being pedantic really but as what people call understeer on a bike is a completely different mechanism to understeer in a car and the cures are different then its not helpfull to use the same term for two very different phenomena.

If the front wheel is washing out you need one / some / all of :

More rebound damping
More weight on the front
A tyre with more grip
a steeper castor angle
More sag in the suspension
More body lean to the outside of the turn to increase the camber thrust by increasing the lean angle of the bike.

Motocycles and bicycles also react very differently because of the relative widths of the tyre, the % of weigh in the bike and rider and the height of the COG. Trying to ride a bicycle in the same way as a motorbike does not work.

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/Products/productsresults/Suspension/2009/August/aug1909-how-suspension-affects-understeer/?&R=EPI-117755 ][b]MCN - How does suspension affect understeer?[/b][/url]

So - to turn left you actually steer to the right.

Yep, I understand that, I've done it myself and it's irrelevent. Why? Becasue that's just HOW you get a bike to turn, not what happens in the turn. However you choose the angle of the turn or maintain it is also irrelevant. If the front wheel slides more then the rear - BINGO! - Understeer! 🙂

And of course your theory (Which sounds like it based on solely motorcycles) you admit " only applies at speed". I also imagine we've had slow speed front end slides..... 🙂

You'll be trying to tell us bikes can't oversteer as well I imagine? 😉
[img] [/img]

HTTP404 - Member

The gyroscopic turning affect employed by motorbikes/bicycle is how they turn at speed.
It doesn't mean a motorbike or bicycle cannot understeer.

Wrong - camber thrust is how the turning force is generated. Gyroscopic precession is one of the mechanisms for initiating the turn but it does not produce the turning force - it produces the lean ( along with the movement of the COG) and its the lean angle that produces the turning force.

what people call understeer on a bike is a completely different mechanism to understeer in a car

Oh yes, granted. But the oucome is the same: Front slides wide = Understeer. 😀

EDIT
That's like saying because you buy your milk at the shop it's real milk and because I get mine delivered, it's not.
End product is the same - Milk in the fridge! 😉

EDIT2
Unless, of course, you count MrsPPs skimmed milk. Which obviously isn't real milk at all...... 8)

As understeer is defined as the vehicle turning less than the steering angle and once in a steady state in teh turn the bike has no steering angle then it cannot understeer in the classic sense. yes it can push the front.

PeterPoddy - Member

"what people call understeer on a bike is a completely different mechanism to understeer in a car"

Oh yes, granted. But the oucome is the same: Front slides wide = Understeer.

My point simply is that if two different mechanisms cause a similar(but not the same) effect then to call the two different things the same word causes confusion - especially as the cure is different.

it cannot understeer in the classic sense

You mean [u]your[/u] sense I take it? 😉

I'm going to quote myself and underline a bit, just to make sure....

[i]understeer is the condition in which the vehicle [u][b]does not follow the trajectory the driver is trying to impose[/b][/u] while taking the corner because the effective slip angle at the front is larger than that at the rear, instead following a less curved trajectory[/i]

🙂

Weight over the front probably won't help. That only helps with certain bike geometries and in certain types of corner ie long fast smooth ones.

When you steer your bike pivots around an axis through the rear wheel. The further forward your weight is, the more it has to move from side to side in twisty stuff. So the harder your front tyre has to work.

In the twisty singletrack at Swinley forsest my Orange 5 is much much faster than my Kona Heihei because it has a slacker head angle and my weight is further back meaning the bike can turn easier. On the Heihei the only way to get any kind of speed through the singletrack was to hang my arse out over the back.

Getting traction from the tyres and steering the bike are different things....

Blimey, i didn't expect that many responses!

tO clear the matter up, understeer or at least what i mean as understeer is basically when i go round a corner and turn the bars/body/bike as much as i usually do to get round it's not enough and i'm running wide.

The tyre isn't washing out, running swampthings, i'm just running wide?

ps it's a hardtail, forks are correct lenght so won't affect desired headangle

TJ - you pedantic knob you are not helping. Understeer in a car has certain causes and solutions, the phenomenon widely referred to as understeer on a bike has different causes and possibly slighly different conditions, and different solutions. We are talking about bikes, so how can there be confusion?

EDIT: Do not listen to TJ's advice about how to reduce bike understeer. He clearly does not know how to ride a bike. I'll bet he's much slower in singletrack than I am 🙂

How does the contact patch move in a turn on a two wheeled vehicle?

Caster increases camber with steering angle which should aid turn in, even if it isn't the mechanism that maintains the turn.

Weight over the front end also helps turn in.

When you think about it, the dynamics are entirely different to those of a 4 wheeled vehicle. A full on sports car will run a lot of Caster (say 7 degrees or more) to keep the contact patch relatively flat and maintain negative camber during a turn. It'll probably also run around 2 degrees static negative camber.

On the other hand, the twitchiest bikes are road bikes, which have far smaller caster angles than MTBs, a lot more weight over the front, and all bikes have zero static camber. So I would say get some weight forwards! I seem to remember this was part of Brant's design for the inbred.

Anyhow, I think it's very difficult to apply anything that's related to motorbikes to pushbikes. At speed on a motorbike will be talking > 30 mph. At speed on a bike is talking > 8mph? A motorbike also has far more opportunity to use the suspension for dynamic weight transfer into bends by loading the suspension up under braking, whereas a cyclist will generally be trying to brake as little as possible.

You'll be trying to tell us bikes can't oversteer as well I imagine?

Peter - I don't know if you have followed this debate in the motorcycle press - I have over the years. "understeer" is sometimes used as the term for pushing the front but many folk in the motorcycle world follow the line I do and to reduce confusion prefer to call it "pushing the front" as as you agree its a totally different mechanism in bikes to cars"

You can get this phenomenon in a two wheeler without a significant slip angle if you have mismatched tyre profiles for example.

anyway - its a purists semantic argument and a long way from the OP.

Op - apologies for hijacking your post.

If you are running wide then more front grip or more camber thrust is needed. More wieight on the front, lean the bike more, better gripping front tyre, more rebound damping to prevent unloading of the tyre, steeper steering head angle ( more sag???)

Motorbikes do not do twisty singletrack, do they? They do fast long corners on smooth surfaces.

Some people really could start an argument with themselves 😀

Swiss - fast corners or tight slow ones?

All things being equal sounds like you have a slacker headangle than you had before. What frame is it/was it?

what happens to the ostriches when you get under steer?

It's a bit like watching that video of the rolling rally car the other day, but in slow motion, and the car is full of ostriches, and every time it rolls another ostrich comes flying out, and as each ostrich hits the ground it starts whooshing like a catherine wheel, and all the orange penguins who are watching the crash come running out with brooms and try and put the ostriches out by hitting them with their brooms, but the brooms just catch fire and the penguins panic and stat rolling around on the ground surrounded by exploding ostriches as the car rolls on and on spewing out ever more ostriches. - BigDummy (STW)

Molgrips - you are probably right that I am slower but what is wrong with my solutions?

Tron - the contact patch moves off the midline as you lean ( towards the edge of the tyre) and the as you initiate a left turn by steering right you move the contac patch from under the COG whixh is one o thereasons you then lean into a turn

A few more random definitions -

[i]un·der·steer (ndr-stîr)
intr.v. un·der·steered, un·der·steer·ing, un·der·steers
To turn less sharply than the operator would expect. Used of vehicles, especially automobiles.
n.[/i]

[i]intr.v., -steered, -steer·ing, -steers.
To turn less sharply than the operator would expect. Used of vehicles, especially automobiles.
[/i]

Long winded and applied to cars, but the input/output is the same -
[i]understeer is when the car won't turn any sharper, even if you turn the steering wheel more. At some point, the front end may start to grip less even when the steering is turned sharply and the result is the car continues in more of a straight line than a sharp turn. That is understeer.

[/i]

And a slightly simplistic one for bikes
[i]Sport: Motocross
Hide links within the definition
Show links within the definition
Definition
When a bike's front tires do not turn into a corner as well as the rear tires do.
[/i]

And finally, the Oxford definition
[i]understeer

• verb (of a motor vehicle) have a tendency to turn less sharply than is intended
[/i]

None ramble on about turn angles etc (In fact I've not founbd one that does yet) it seems that it's all to do with the fron end sliding or a wider than expected turn. Very simple.

Need any more? 😀

[i]prefer to call it "pushing the front" as as you agree its a totally different mechanism in bikes to cars"
[/i]

ARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**Bangs head on wall**

Yes, it might be 'a different mecahnism' but the END RESULT is identical -The front end has less grip than the rear and slides, runs wide or turns less than expected.
That's the be-all-and-end-all of it. There is no more to it than that. However you get there, whatever you call it it's the SAME THING.

You take the stairs, I take the lift (Because I'm tired from banging my head and might start on yours in the stairwell 😉 ) but we both get to the top floor. You catch my drift?

Drift? HaHaa! Geddit? Understeer ....? Drift.....?
Ahem. Sorry.

😀

OP: ignoring all the debat, I've experienced "understeer" (bars crossing up in turns and bike going straight on), for me it's usually tyre related.

Look for something quite sticky and without straight line gaps laterally across the tread. Think spaced out blocky treads.

I quite like Kenda Blue Groove 2.35 in Stick-E compound for what it's worth. Both my bikes have them on the front.

If your runniong wide on corners. It sounds like it is simply technique deficit. slow down going into them. or improve your cornering style. i run wide often, usually going to fast.

PP - are you being deliberatly obtuse? You agree with me that a two wheeler and a 4 wheeler act very differently - the phenomenon that cause them to run wide is different and has different causes and solutions and you want to call it the same thing?

go and read up on some real experts on how 2 wheelers work.

Yes, it might be 'a different mecahnism' but the END RESULT is identical -The front end has less grip than the rear and slides, runs wide or turns less than expected.

And here is one of your mistakes / misunderstandings - Bikes can run wide and require correction without a loss of grip due to geometrical effects.

Its clear you don't actually understand how a bike steers

I think we can agree the cause is due to completely different dynamics. However, they are known by the same terminology. All press, books and literature refer to the same terminology. Your interpretation is different but that's you.

It's a bit like watching that video of the rolling rally car the other day, but in slow motion, and the car is full of ostriches, and every time it rolls another ostrich comes flying out, and as each ostrich hits the ground it starts whooshing like a catherine wheel, and all the orange penguins who are watching the crash come running out with brooms and try and put the ostriches out by hitting them with their brooms, but the brooms just catch fire and the penguins panic and stat rolling around on the ground surrounded by exploding ostriches as the car rolls on and on spewing out ever more ostriches

This has got to be one of the funniest things I've ever read! 😀

So after re-reading the OP all the same parts, just the frame has changed.

So three things spring to mind.

Your headangle is slacker which tends to slow the steerring but makes the bike more stable at very high speed (think downhill bikes)
Your wheelbase is longer again more stable at speed but could be slowing your steering in tight bends
You're sitting further back on the bike unweighting the front wheel giving you less grip.

That's what I reckon anyway.

I think we can agree

i very much doubt that

and that BigDummy quote is responsible for an awful lot of tea in keyboards across the nation

My God what a childish pedantic waste of typing. Even if understeer is not quite the correct term by some nerdy analysis we all know what he means FFS. Push, front washing a bit, lack of steering bite - whatever.

I'd suspect that the bike doesn't fit the same as what you're used to, maybe? Is it a bit longer? Is the seat tube more slack or the front centre longer? My first guess was fork too long.

HTTP404 - Member

I think we can agree the cause is due to completely different dynamics. However, they are known by the same terminology. All press, books and literature refer to the same terminology. Your interpretation is different but that's you.

actually not all books / press refer to the same terminology. I have followed this debate in the motorcycle press for years and many folk do not refer to running wide on a bike as understeer simply because it is a number of different effects with different and multiple causes and can be nothing to do with tyres losing grip. To call two different effects with different causes the same thing leads to confusion as can be seen on this thread

2 wheeler steering is incredibly complex with a huge number of factors effecting it and very many people do not understand it. Running wide can be caused by issues with grip, frame geometry , tyre profile, weight distribution and other causes. each can cause the bike to run wide and each has a different cure

I do apologise for the pedantic hijacking of the thread tho. I didn't mean to end up getting into such a row. I'll shut up now. sorry.

Back on topic!

It's when cornering at speed, the frame is less slack than the one before.

I'm perfectly willing to accept rider error it's just that i haven't experenced it before?

Hmm. OK, if you're sure it isn't slackness I'd take this as an opportunity to reinforce your cornering technique. So - really (really really) press down on the outside pedal, forcibly twist your body to face the way you want to go, lay the bike down more than you and look only where you want to end up, and believe the bike will stick!

And take some air out of the front tyre, unless you're already as low as you dare.

FULLY ON TOPIC:

I've scanned this thread so someone might have said this already.

I used to have a front end wash out feeling, the feeling that I was leaning into a bend and the bike went straight on for a bit before turning so you lose your precision of where you thought it was going. So after a chat with my fast mates I find that I corner better (define that) if I hang off the back a bit, sort of dig my back wheel in, feels more grippy and feels like the bike is going where I point it.

Some people really could start an argument with themselves

Can't be arsed to read all of this.

Try actively putting more body weight on the inside bar grip when cornering.

as expected:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Motorbikes do not do twisty singletrack, do they?

Going back on topic,

I've had understeer (front tyre washes out a bit as you turn) on my cove HJ when my stem was too long (100), I knocked it back to 70 and the problem went away.

Biggest tip I had (thx to AQR) to help going round corners was push down through the handlebars with my hand on the inside of corner.

Anyone who wants to know more about understeer / running wide and how 2 wheelers steer try: Motorcycle handling and chassis design: the art and science By Tony Foale

linky to relevant bit ( hopefully)that explains why calling motorcycle running wide understeering is unhelpful.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=84hF-qoR5I8C&pg=PT73&lpg=PT73&dq=Toany+foale+understeer&source=bl&ots=FYB2tGOfPf&sig=Fw1NnU8C4slEPxHV_xWGSudoe3M&hl=en&ei=3ptdS472D4X40wTX-d37BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=understeer&f=false

toys19 - I think maybe the reason that works is in going a bit further back you are transferring all your weight down through the pedals, driving the bike with your feet. Well, ideally just one (outside) foot.

Contrary to what some people will suggest I recommend not thinking particularly about your hands or the handlebars at all - get everything driving down and through the BB and think in terms of turning yourself and the bike just following your lead.

The tyre isn't washing out, running swampthings, i'm just running wide?

Weighting the inside bar grip seems counter-intuitive to me, I'd have thought it would make the bike [b]more[/b] prone to washing out. Does that really work? Not that I go round corners fast enough for it to be an issue mind!

I would make sure sag is set right about 1/3 of total travel while in your riding gear is a good place to start
then work on you riding (body) position
just give that ago and see what happens

(what could possibly go wrong eh 😛 )

Weighting the inside grip works because it makes you lay the bike down more and the bike turns more forcibly. I generates counter-steer and keeps the bike laid over. As a general point though I don't find it especially useful to think about pressing down on the bars.

If the frame is less slack than before and the problem is high speed cornering then I'd say it might just be a characteristic of that kind of bike, you can't chuck it into the corner as hard as a nice slack head angle one. Try going in slower, you might carry a bit more speed out as a result?

what does it matter TJ if we all know what he means?

How many times have you ridden this new bike? You prolly just need to get used to it.

"Weighting the inside bar grip seems counter-intuitive to me, I'd have thought it would make the bike more prone to washing out"

It seems wrong but feels right. Imagine a right-hander...

Weight on left foot
Press on right bar down to tip the bike against the pressure of your weight on left foot - stay on top of the bike.
Compress sharply and the tyres grab making you turn sharp - careful not to high-side or get pinged into an unexpected left turn.

I'm a long way from perfecting this technique!

To the op - I've experienced what you describe and it was purely down to tire choice. Was pretty clear as I made no changes to the bike other than tires. Happens when I run a spiked or studded tire front and rear. No matter how hard you commit to the corner the back wheel grips too well and forces the bike wide. Swap your rear tire for a hard compound high roller which will let the back end drift predictably, the swamp thing up front will track nicely - works for me.

what does it matter TJ if we all know what he means?

But... yes.

Couldn't tell you what my handlebars are doing during a turn, as a) I'm not looking at them, I'm spotting the exit of the turn, and b) I steer mostly with my feet and arse.

Interestingly, I was riding with mrmichaelwright up at Kirroughtree this summer, we're pretty evenly matched, he edges me on the descents, I can't mostly out-climb him, anyway he was pulling away from me more than normal, we stopped to talk about it and he was saying to me whenever you feel like braking in a corner, instead, look up, properly actively look at what you're doing, concentrate on it...You have to judge it very finely, helps no end with cornering.

a two wheeled machine is a two wheeled machine and physics doesnt change because we are slower and pedaling,,

i used to run the ohlins race service i used to explain it like this to riders front end pushing ( understeer) need more weight on the front rear end sliding ( oversteer) need more weight on the back

more weight on the front ( as we are talking understeer) can be acheived by either lowering the front ride height raising the rear or moving the rider forward,,

flashforward to me in another job ,, i have a whyte preston when i rode the prototypes i found them great but i felt the production ones didnt have enough weight on the front hence they had understeer , also tended to lift while climbing so my solution is both my prestons have 24 inch front wheels makes them great climbing and down singletracks IMO