I'd look into the risks of taking it when dehydrated.
Also when I've been injured I've been advised not to take ibuprofen in the first 48hours after injury as it slows the healing process. Not sure on the science behind this. Is it more to do with the inflammation response than muscle repair?
Whilst on ultra events, I see Josh Ibbet has just won GBDURO in a bit under 8 days.
Not entirely rational or logical opinion = If the distance or time needed is short enough that PEDs of some sort make a difference then it's not 'ultra distance'.
Real long distance events go so far that burning the candle at both ends will risk a likely burn out before the finish or getting so dopey it's counter-productive. The events can become managed attrition to an extent and I'm not convinced uppers etc are productive by that stage. Mistakes in kit, route or resupply can lose more time than the 'PED' etc might gain and uppers, pain killers etc all create a yo-yo of feel good and crash cycles. So on that basis I've got no issue with how much caffeine, 5-hour energy shots or anything else that people take as long as it's nothing on banned lists. I also think (over a genuinely long distance race) a well-prepped and efficient, mindful rider will be fresher and make fewer mistakes than a strung-out caffeine-reliant or pill popping rider. And if the pills help a less fit or prepped rider keep up longer, so be it. I expect self-supported distance racers are as much about personal style and ethics as results vs their peers. If that's not your case you'll probably not get the returns or rewards you want from self-supported bike racing.
I’ve got no issue with how much caffeine, 5-hour energy shots or anything else that people take
Awesome, I'm going to try riding the Torino-Nice rally like it's Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas! 😎
I'd never actually heard of rhabdomyolysis, but just looked it up - severe dehydration, muscle injury and ibuprofen aren't a good combination it seems.
Awesome, I’m going to try riding the Torino-Nice rally like it’s Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas! 😎
Why not, it's not a timed event, fill your boots / neck... I think the beer and coffee consumption of a few along the way would count as uppers and downers.
In all seriousness though RE caffeine and Red Bull etc, maybe it's not the amount it's the amount compared to your resistance to it. I could drink a small can of Red Bull at 10am and still have disrupted sleep that night while others can sleep well after a black coffee after dinner.
I also think (over a genuinely long distance race) a well-prepped and efficient, mindful rider will be fresher and make fewer mistakes than a strung-out caffeine-reliant or pill popping rider.
It's not about muscle power in a genuinely long distance race. It's about managing sleep deprivation, whilst staying alert and keeping your metabolism high.
When you have been awake for 36 hours or more and are starting to hallucinate and fall asleep on your feet then caffeine (or a stronger stimulant) wakes you up again and is a massive advantage.
rhabdomyolysis
It was a suspected cause of death in marathon running and a few of them have now banned it and include info on their entry forms about this. Brighton was one, think some of the big international ones too.
It’s not about muscle power in a genuinely long distance race. It’s about managing sleep deprivation, whilst staying alert and keeping your metabolism high.
When you have been awake for 36 hours or more and are starting to hallucinate and fall asleep on your feet then caffeine (or a stronger stimulant) wakes you up again and is a massive advantage.
If I read your post right, I disagree. Managing rest/sleep dep is about muscle power, it's about conserving that higher power base level you've trained to and managing the physical fade. If your recovery is bad during the event you'll slow down too much toward the end. Long distance racing is about looking after yourself first, sleep deprivation may be further down the list (though increased sleep dep is how racing's gone in recent years as the guys who can get all the other bits right then start to sleep far less as the last real gain to be had). Sleep dep does detract from your performance though so it's simply whether you can handle or manage it enough so it balances out as a gain in av speed. Managing it significantly with stimulants just kicks the fatigue can down the course a bit, though I can't say I've a lot of experience of that - only a little and I didn't like the way it pushed me off a more natural cycle of rest when needed.
In long events (not the 4-5 days that get tagged as ultras, I mean a week plus) you have to manage the inevitable breakdown and maintain your output, so if you've been awake 36hrs you need to be confident you can handle that strategy. It's not going to be the fastest way to ride for everyone. Yes use caffeine to keep going if you have to, why not, but if you're 36hrs into that block of riding but really struggling and only 3-4 hours from where you plan to rest that caffeine could mess up the rest you'll need to manage the next block. It's all about how you feel at the time compared to where you need to be next and a mindful planner will be more likely to manage that better than someone relying on a fix when needed.
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TiRed
SubscriberYou may be surprised to learn that only one U.K. cyclist is currently serving a sanction.
Not surprised but disappointed, because there’s at least one high profile name that should be there too.
will be fresher and make fewer mistakes than a strung-out caffeine-reliant or pill popping rider
I can tell you that twelve and twenty four hours on aero bars looking through your eyebrows is not great for a neck that’s carrying a twenty-year whiplash injury.
The nice thing about these events is that hydration is normally not an issue (over-hydrated). Ibuprofen helps with muscle aches, but it’s mainly the shoulders and neck that do the suffering for me.
As for caffeine, well it has a six hour half life and I take a SIS espresso gel every three hours. One is usually pretty wired by the end due to accumulation. Which helps when you have to drive home afterwards. For a 24hr, somebody else drives.
one high profile name that should be there too.
I’d be interested to hear who you think should be serving a ban. And for what.
One night when out with pals I was doing the driving so was drinking coke. After about 6 pints over the evening I couldn't sleep when I got home and felt both wired and exhausted at the same time. The next day I felt as hungover as if I'd had a skin full the night before. Can't imagine what state I'd be in if I was consuming caffeine for 24 hours without sleep.
When I first got into mountain biking I used to ride with people who were a fair bit fitter than me so I thought nothing of having a can of red bull and a 2 ibuprofen before the ride. I felt great mostly, but I was still in my twenties. Not sure I'd do that anymore.
Coca Cola is about 50 mg per pint. Six pints would be 300 mg. that’s two SIS gels. Elimination is surprisingly slow - half removed in six hours. Back to baseline in about 30 hours.
Caffeine helps raise heart rate and may help with metabolic efficiency. It was on the WADA watch list, but you really can’t use it as a drug of abuse. The limits of concern were thought to be about 1000 mg in a short time. That’s a box of 20 Pro Plus. A dose of 100 mg an hour before a short race is a reasonable regime for some enhancement of performance (that’s a double espresso). An hour because it’s absorbed slowly.
The lethal dose was thought to be 14 g until two students survived a horrific sports science study induced overdose at Northumberland unit. They survived by ITU admission and dialysis. They had 30 g instead of 300 mg!!!! an over dose of 100 times or equivalently taking 200 of those SIS gels (it was dosed as pure powder).
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-tyne-38744307
If you’re going to take PEDs then at least check the dose. That’s my day job, and don’t work it out on an iPhone calculator!
Btw the content of energy drinks is regulated. Red bull is 80 mg and monster is 200 mg.
One night when out with pals I was doing the driving so was drinking coke. After about 6 pints over the evening I couldn’t sleep when I got home and felt both wired and exhausted at the same time
Dont ever try amphetamines!!
The lethal dose was thought to be 14 g until two students survived a horrific sports science study induced overdose at Northumberland unit. They survived by ITU admission and dialysis. They had 30 g instead of 300 mg!!!! an over dose of 100 times or equivalently taking 200 of those SIS gels (it was dosed as pure powder).
Just read a report on it:
They had used a mobile phone to calculate the caffeine dosage, resulting in the decimal point being in the wrong place, he added, saying that no risk assessments had been made.
In their defence, the university’s lawyer said the university wished to “emphasise that they take the welfare of their students and staff seriously”.
I imagine it like giving a couple of PE teachers lab coats and telling them to get on with it 🙂
If I asked you to pour out 300mg of salt, you wouldn’t know what it looked like (it’s really not much at all!). Funny thing is, pure caffeine is VERY bitter- it’s used for flavour not effect. Swallowing 30g just shows how willing people are to satisfy others.
I never understood why they didn’t just use 50mg pro plus tablets.
I can neither confirm nor deny if I have used amphetamine but I do have a history of being fairly sensitive to drugs.
Caffeine can give me heart palpitations and is one of my known migraine triggers.
My legal high is a cup of tea and a slice of cake after riding my mountain bike and even then I can get pretty buzzed. A rockstar I am not. 😬
Any other known drugs/supplements that amateur endurance athletes are known to take?
How about slimming pills? A guy I used to work with took a fair few more than the recommended amount of slimming pills one day on site. He ended up a right sweaty mess and said his heart was racing, not sure what they were.
Iron supplements are popular. If your guts can stomach them. Increasing haemaglobin has obvious benefits for endurance. Whether iron intake is a means to this is moot.
Serotonin is also a useful high. The normal route of administration for cyclists is known as a banana. You need a large dose to get high 🤣
I took a tramadol in the middle of the night during a recent bike holiday, it was the only painkiller I had in my travel bag.
I was surprised how strong I felt the next day on a big ride in the mountains.
I'd always wondered why the pros took it, but I think it had a significant effect on muting my fatigue from the last two big days of riding with poor sleep.
Shame it was my last one from an old prescription, really.
A few years ago me and a couple of pals went road cycling in the French Alps. But a couple - or three - weeks before we were due to head out my pal had an asthma attack and needed to be administered to hospital. He was given some strong drugs (no idea what they were) and he seemed to back to health prior to us flying out.
His performance on the climbs in the Alps was way better than mine. Which was in total contrast to how it normally is when we ride together. As our week in the Alps passed he got weaker and I got stronger.
I'm sure that the asthma drug he had been taking was just coincidental with his sudden performance boost.
Steroids. I had a course a while back. Couple of days later knocked out 50 miles at highish effort off road and felt fresh afterwards. Almost worth having the chest infection.
He ended up a right sweaty mess and said his heart was racing, not sure what they were.
Sound like some sort of amphetamine
So guys, give me the top 5 readily available drugs or supplements that someone - hypothetically of course - could take leading up to a 2 day 300km off-road mountain bike event that would make a discernable difference but wouldn't likely kill them or have any other horrific side effects?
interesting thread. I've wondered why non-pro roadies take painkillers when that just means they'll miss out on some of the pain, which I thought was the whole point of it?
Or is it like the masochist who liked a cold shower in the morning, so he had a warm one?
So guys, give me the top 5 readily available drugs or supplements that someone – hypothetically of course – could take leading up to a 2 day 300km off-road mountain bike event that would make a discernable difference but wouldn’t likely kill them or have any other horrific side effects?
You'll know me at the start of the CL -
😂
My current 'legal highs' are
1) Beetroot juice - because I actually like it now anyway. Jury seems to be out on drinking it before or after exercise. I just have it with breakfast.
2) Multi-vitamins. Because why not? (apart from possible waste of money but at Tesco prices I'll take the hit
3) Trying to hydrate much better
4) Kale! Seems like an easy win, is tasty roasted as Kale chips, everyone seems to recommend it, useful roughage...
5) Intrigued by Creatine but it sounds like it's mostly good for strength gains but can cause weight gain?
You'll recognise me by my lack of knowing what the hell I'm doing. I'm likely to turn up with enough kit to circumnavigate the globe or with just 2 water bottles, a waterproof jacket and an emergency banana.
Multi-vitamins. Because why not? (apart from possible waste of money but at Tesco prices I’ll take the hit
Vitamin pills do work insofar as they top up your levels of the vitamins - but are much better taken with food and are not a replacement for healthy eating obvs. But they don't 'work' on the wilder claims like preventing colds etc.
Beetroot juice pharmacology is one of the most interesting of all. Your body can't process nitrate, so it's released back into your mouth via saliva and broken down my bacteria. You than absorb the nitrite, convert it to nitrous oxide and this acts as a vasodilator. Stuff makes me gag and you have to drink a LOT of it, but I do like eating beetroots!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3575935/
My top five are:
1) vitamins - when I remember
2) caffeine tablets and/or SIS caffeine gels
3) creatine - when I remember
4) ibuprofen - as above 100 mg/hour
5) liquidised porridge with apple sauce in freezer bags, drunk every hour!
The Spanish have recently reduced the dosage of Ibuprofen available without a prescription - you used to be able to buy a pack of 600mg pills over the counter, that's now been reduced to a maximum of 400mg. And there's definitely a lot more awareness of the risks of using Vit I during long races, previously we were all necking one before the race (just in case) and then as needed during. You don't really see that anymore.
Never thought of taking Ibuprofen as a performance enhancer, but some used to joke about taking it before a ride to deal with the inevitable pain from crashing.
TiRed - Could you elaborate on the benefits of creatine for cycling if you have time please?
Also, your number 5 is a troll to teach the OP a lesson for cheating, right?
I’m intrigued by the Ibuprofen. The sports physio I go to on and off has always been clear that it’s fine in the immediate term (ie at the pint of injury) but that it inhibits muscle recovery. People taking it to manage inflammation prior rather than in response to an injury are you concerned about any long term effects?
Tramadol used to come up in conversation at the club TTs and I’ve ridden whilst on it through prescriptions. I’ve also TTd on Valium, again prescription and that I cannot recommend at all 😄
I read a good few years back that ibuprofen can cause heart issues when exercising so given that I was on prescription for it for several years as a teenager and it turned my guts to mush I tend to avoid it, and wouldn’t take on a ride, if I get sore then I’ll take a single 500mg paracetamol.
I was on tramadol (3x50mg/day) for 14 weeks and the coming off was horrible enough that I don’t want to be on it again any time soon.
Not a lot of data on creatine to be honest. And the assessments are blunt instruments like peak power. Here’s a trial showing no benefit of protein supplement.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26949378/
A review of supplements here
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31531769/
Bicarbonate of soda has been tested as a buffering.
And porridge in a bag with apple sauce is my staple for 12hr TTs. Along with liquidised rice and tuna with Worcester sauce. You did ask. Rocket fuel I tell you. When racing I can’t chew but need a lot of calories.
And porridge in a bag with apple sauce is my staple for 12hr TTs.
Not a lot of data on creatine to be honest. And the assessments are blunt instruments like peak power.
Do you find excess weight/water retention issues with creatine? The prospect has always put me off it.
In previous years when I've been training* for an event I have taken protein recovery shakes (with Creatine) after each ride and I was sure that they had a positive effect on recovery. This year I've not done this, instead I try to drink plenty of water and try to eat something relatively wholesome like left overs from the evening meal, muesli with whole milk or a homemade protein shake (made of milk, yoghurt, fruit and peanut butter).
I've lost more weight this year but according to my scales a fair bit of that is also muscle which is a little worrying, I feel pretty decent though so that's the main thing.
I forgot to mention that over the last few months I've had a few spells (lasting 4-5 days) where I have felt terrible, like all my muscles are fatigued. I just take it easy for a few days and eat well, drink plenty of fluids and get lots of rest then I feel strong again. Probably age related. 😢
*This is a loose term for my unplanned riding in circles around where I live on a variety of bikes based around my job, two children and whatever the wife has volunteered me for.
Isn't Creatine found in some foods?
I could definitely go for the apple sauce porridge but I quite like stopping every hour or so to eat a cereal bar, have a toilet break and stretch my legs. My food of choice is Stoats porridge bars, 250 odd calories in one tasty bar.
Do you find excess weight/water retention issues with creatine? The prospect has always put me off it.
Isn’t Creatine found in some foods?
Yea, creatine is found in meat, fish that sort of stuff. Your body naturally stores phosphocreatine in muscle tissue which it then uses to create energy. Supplementing is popular with bodybuilders because it helps them get the extra rep or two and the end of a set. For cyclists its a bit of a trade off because of the extra water retention, i sometimes supplement it (mainly becuase im a part time veggie) and i notice about an extra killogram on the scales and an extra couple of seconds giving it hells bells on sprints.
I’m intrigued by the Ibuprofen. The sports physio I go to on and off has always been clear that it’s fine in the immediate term (ie at the pint of injury) but that it inhibits muscle recovery. People taking it to manage inflammation prior rather than in response to an injury are you concerned about any long term effects?
Pretty sure your physio is correct - I only take it when injured, and these days I try to minimise the amount I use. 10 years ago it was seen (here at least) as a very innocuous wonder drug, something you could neck daily without any ill effects. We seem to have moved on from there... As to long-term effects, afaik (and I'm not a doctor!) the main concern is damage to your stomach/intestines. To mitigate this I definitely avoid taking any on an empty stomach, although I should say that I've never personally noticed any problems.
Your body naturally stores phosphocreatine in muscle tissue which it then uses to create energy.
Dont start me off again, we had enough problems with the keto diet thread.
I used creatine+protein for a while when doing a lot of road racing, but it only really works to aid recovery on a high intensity training load. It was the difference between doing a 100 miler on Saturday and Sunday. Less sure of the benefits for endurance events because you're less reliant on developing explosive strength.
