[Closed] Trying flats after 30yrs of spds

buy some plasters and tcp for your shins!

(fellow spd users who has tried to ride in flats more than once)

You’re about to have all of your bad habits laid bare in front of you. You’ll also definitely smack a pedal off your shin, without even having to be on the bike at the time

Already pinned up my MTB trousers and old football shin pads for the first few rides 😄

I started on flats about 4 years ago (still mostly SPDs since 90’s) and have ridden two weeks abroad on uplifts and a fair few practice days with no scratches or holes, so it can be done. Your feet will be further forward.

Have a look at this https://learn.ryanleech.com/the-flat-pedal-challenge?

EDIT at Mashr, yeah I’ve whacked my calves more than once but not the damage you might expect on your shins

I have been on SPD's forever but bought some flats a few years ago for fun. I occasionally switch between the two but still mostly stay clipped in.

Firstly, with decent shoes and pedals you're unlikely to slip, my whole childhood was filled with torn apart shins but 5.10's mean I haven't hit my shins once since going back to flats. My biggest issue is riding through chunder where I struggle with keeping my feet from bouncing. I also find it really annoying that it's difficult to move your feet once they're on the pedals, when you're used to an exact position like with SPD then having your foot just slightly out can feel very disconcerting.

Whack them on give it a go scare yourself by how readily your feet fly offer them and you'll soon figure it out and adapt! Then you can start worrying about all the techniques that will help you keep your feet in place for the last % where they come off.

I switched to flats when recovering from an operation last summer after nearly 30yrs on clipless. Almost immediately managed to perforate my shins, even though I had guards on!

I still find myself spending a lot of time looking down, trying to get my feet in the right place on the pedals. I did quickly learn the 'heels down' thing though.

I think once I'm fully recovered and back to riding normally, I'll ditch the flat pedals and go back to clipless. At the start of a tricky descent, I don't want to be faffing about, trying to get my foot right on the pedal. I much prefer the security, and immediate correct placement that clipless provides.

B.

+1 to decent shoes. Hard shin pads might help too but like others it was my calves that took the brunt of it.

Similar background to others. Rode exclusively clipped in from early/mid 9os until I tried flats around 2010. First time jumping was frightening until I figured out how to make the bike stay in the air with me. Now I swap between flats and clips frequently without an issue. Always clips on my trail bike but mixed on my bigger/enduro bike, depending where and what I'm riding.

Thanks all

I've some North Wave shoes with Michelin soles which are stupidly sticky / squeaky walking around my kitchen.

I'm also a road convert, and started 100% clipped in. Now pretty much 100% flats outdoors.

Get some decent mtb shoes. Trying it out in running shoes or hiking boots and you'll be coming back here next week saying its terrible.

I've cut my shin while riding a grand total of once, in a crash that also involved hitting my nuts on the stem to give you an idea of how bad you need to mess up to get your shin. (failed bronco hop over a 1 ft tall obstruction, caught the back wheel, stopped dead in the air)

Watch the pins when pushing the bike though, they stick out more than your spd pedals.

I went through this process about a year ago and I'm 100% on flats unless I'm on the drop bar bike now.

You will feel like you have lost tons of skill but give it time.

A really sticky shoes and pedal combo help when you're learning - Ride Concepts, FiveTen and apparently the new Specialized shoes are the stickiest, I went for RCs as they fit my feet.  These mated to DMR Vaults give proper Poo on a Blanket levels of grip.

Bunnyhops - this was a major issue for me and there are a million "How To Bunnyhop" videos on youtube, some work for some, others work for others.  This one worked for me:

Rough stuff - If there is another thing that helped me it was making sure I was putting enough weight through my pedals with my feet far enough forward (pedal in the middle of the foot length ways) with my heels down.

Drops - Foot in the middle and I think looking at videos that front foot is heel down and rear is heel up, but that just sort of happened and wasn't consciously learned.

use flats on the pump track bike - tried on the downs but hated it. much prefer being clipped in. Don't see why someone would swap between either after 30 years unless you are having issues on certain trails.

use flats on the pump track bike – tried on the downs but hated it. much prefer being clipped in. Don’t see why someone would swap between either after 30 years unless you are having issues on certain trails.

Ruined meniscus drove my decision.

Honestly though I really like flats now!  Improved my riding no end!  I wish I did it years ago!

Don’t see why someone would swap between either after 30 years unless you are having issues on certain trails.

I suppose it's down to a distinct lack of progression over the last few years - spds have been fine for many years of local xc rides, but I and a few mates are frequenting bike parks which are still a new thing to me & I guess I'd like to have the option of using flats at them.

You’re about to have all of your bad habits laid bare in front of you.

Alternative take; all the techniques you currently use to move the bike around aren't going to work necessarily equally well, and you may have to learn different techniques to do that. Criticising one or the other pedal interface for either "teaching bad habits" or lazy technique" doesn't really add to the conversation IMO. We should try not to frame it that way.

Start on easier downhill trails until you're used to them. A pump track is a great place to learn on but any nice flowy trail will do.

Alternative take; all the techniques you currently use to move the bike around aren’t going to work necessarily equally well, and you may have to learn different techniques to do that. Criticising one or the other pedal interface for either “teaching bad habits” or lazy technique” doesn’t really add to the conversation IMO. We should try not to frame it that way.

Nah - my technique for jumping and bunny hopping in particular were absolutely dogsh*t.

nickc
Full Member
Alternative take; all the techniques you currently use to move the bike around aren’t going to work necessarily equally well, and you may have to learn different techniques to do that. Criticising one or the other pedal interface for either “teaching bad habits” or lazy technique” doesn’t really add to the conversation IMO. We should try not to frame it that way.

Nah – my technique for jumping and bunny hopping in particular were absolutely dogsh*t.

This was the sort of thing I was thinking of. Using SPDs to help manoeuvring is one of the main pros of using them, absolutely not a "bad" habit

spds have been fine for many years of local xc rides, but I and a few mates are frequenting bike parks which are still a new thing to me & I guess I’d like to have the option of using flats at them

are you actually wanting the ability to stick your foot out, or are you just not liking your current xc shoes for bikeparks? A more downhill style clipless shoe with more rearward clip position, more protection, and the ability to walk normally might be what you want?

A more downhill style clipless shoe with more rearward clip position

"enduro style" shoes/boots are much better for moving the cleat back and walking with.

This was the sort of thing I was thinking of. Using SPDs to help maneuvering is one of the main pros of using them, absolutely not a “bad” habit

nah - it absolutely is a bad habit IMO. When you've learnt techniques on flats your riding on clips instantly becomes way better as you are using proper weight distribution to move the bike - it's a mile away from being an equivalent (but different) skill as you suggest. Lots of bmx racers do the winter on flats to keep their skills in shape but wouldn't dream of racing without clips. I started on clips and went to flats in about 2002. Now I can use both equally comfortably, but generally only use clips for racing/XC rides/bikepacking/road/commuting.

As others have said, but a shorter summary:
1) Good sticky shoes
2) Heels down!

That about covers it - oh, and be more careful when pushing/walking the bike. ****ing pedals/pins area always where you don't expect them to be!

Fairly recent convert to flats and 5:10 shoes after first riding with clipless pedals in 1996 (Onza HO pedals no less!). I've not mashed my shins yet but it's only a matter of time. I've found the change easy enough but one thing I don't like is how occasionally I put my foot wrong on the pedal and its difficult to adjust my foot position quickly if I'm on a technical section. Not sure I could go back to SPDs now...

I don't really agree on the technique issue, you can have bad habits with clips but doesn't mean you will have. I can bunnyhop just fine on flats or clips and always have been able to. I prefer clips as I like my feet to stay in one position, even when I'm riding flats I rarely ever take my foot off the pedal and I'm no quicker at taking my foot off than I am with clips.

I actually feel safer being clipped in as slipping a pedal or losing my footing is something I don't have to worry about, I can keep light over rough terrain knowing the bike will stay with me.

Overall I still ride flats occasionally at somewhere that is jump focussed but clips everywhere else.

I don’t really agree on the technique issue, you can have bad habits with clips but doesn’t mean you will have. I can bunnyhop just fine on flats or clips and always have been able to.

Absolutely agree, clips don’t mean you have bad technique! But if you can ‘bunny hop’ on clips but not on flats I’d argue that you do have bad technique.

Firstly, with decent shoes and pedals you’re unlikely to slip, my whole childhood was filled with torn apart shins but 5.10’s mean I haven’t hit my shins once since going back to flats. My biggest issue is riding through chunder where I struggle with keeping my feet from bouncing. I also find it really annoying that it’s difficult to move your feet once they’re on the pedals, when you’re used to an exact position like with SPD then having your foot just slightly out can feel very disconcerting.

K and I both went over to flats after decades on clips. She stuck with it and it improved her confidence and riding. I went back to clips after a few months as found the 'wrong position' thing impossible to get over (and that gave me more knee issues). I've never had any issues getting out of clips to put a foot back and getting back in. I *did* switch to enduro/flat style shoes and pedals though.

Now I can use both equally comfortably, but generally only use clips for racing/XC rides/bikepacking/road/commuting.

Ha. I switched my commute and city bikes to flats and have considered swapping my road bike (which has mtb pedals and touring shoes anyway).

I’ve whacked my calves more than once but not the damage you might expect on your shins

Almost all of K's pedal injuries are while pushing or carrying rather that riding. Flat pedals are evil things - which are also prone to hooking on other bike wheels when you lean them against each other.

These are a great investment to keep on your bike for transport and storage - https://singletrackworld.com/shop/nox-sox-pedal-covers/

Went to flats after about 20 years about 3 years ago on my mtbs.

Spds I do think are a bit better for riding, but flats are better for falling off and the pub. I'm sticking with flats.

Nah – my technique for jumping and bunny hopping in particular were absolutely dogsh*t.

This is exactly what i'm talking about. The purpose of a bunny hop isn't to have "good technique" (whatever that actually means) while doing a bunny hop, it's to clear a trail obstacle by lifting the bike up off the ground, and over the thing in front of you. Did you achieve it? Great then your technique works, failed to clear it? then your technique needs work. Regardless of your pedal interface, and that those may be different if you're clipped in or on flats

SPDs can make certain things easier and that's not necessarily bad technique, things like quickly moving the back of the bike around or being able to pedal much easier across choppy terrain.

But I myself absolutely did learn some shite techniques. My chief offence was just hanging off the back of the bike. I didnt need to worry about proper foot placement or weighting the bike the right way I was just relying on my clips to hold my feet in place and i just slithered around.

I don't regret moving to flats as I'm now comfortable on either and I'm much more confident on techy stuff

Tried it a few years ago after being on SPD's since mid-91.

Hated it. I'd genuinely rather use Mt. Zefal toe clips and straps over flats.

Superstar El Plastique with 5:10's, so sticky as a sticky thing thanks to the long, thin pins, but that meant that if my feet were in the wrong place (as they often were) it meant I had to lift my feet off rather than just slide them around. And was still twisting to get my feet off thanks to 25+ years of muscle memory.

All-in-all it made riding not fun and I didn't want to spend time having shite rides to try and sort the issues, and I wasn't going to spend hundreds of £ trying to find a Goldilocks combination of shoe and pedal.

I'm not bothered if others think SPD's are bad technique for jumping, hopping, maneuvering etc. If it works, it's all good.

Absolutely agree, clips don’t mean you have bad technique! But if you can ‘bunny hop’ on clips but not on flats I’d argue that you do have bad technique.

I used to be able to bunny hop both - no idea if I can still bunny hop on flats as I've not tried in 20 yrs. I guess we'll see what happens at the weekend.

i used flats on my fat bike, then when summer came 3 years ago i put the pedals on the new bike i was building. i’ve dabbled with flats in the past, but this time i’ve not even thought about going back. i’ve enjoyed the change after 30+ years of spd

my tip would be to get some 5:10 or similar.

Use to ride with both flats and spds.
Then spent about 15 years on just spds.
Now both but mostly spds.

Didn't forget how to bunny hop but do keep bouncing off the flat pedals a lot.

Flats are more fun for short local rides.
Spds are much better for power and long rides.

I gave up after a year of trying flats. I could not get out of the habit of lifting my rear foot when accelerating and on any technical climb where a lot of drive is required. The back of my calves ended up a mess.
I had no issues descending, but felt more confident that I could get a foot down riding clips.

Foot position is everything on flats. Axel behind ball of foot so your foot can go into flexion as you and the bike move about. As you jump your feet point down, as this happens if your feet are in the wrong place you kick the pedal away from your foot

All-in-all it made riding not fun and I didn’t want to spend time having shite rides to try and sort the issues, and I wasn’t going to spend hundreds of £ trying to find a Goldilocks combination of shoe and pedal.

I’m not bothered if others think SPD’s are bad technique for jumping, hopping, maneuvering etc. If it works, it’s all good.

It's easy to get swallowed by the 'not a proper rider' mantra in MTB if you let it, but the reality is that there are plenty of people content with their level of development who get loads more from riding than the concept of 'being better'. I suppose it just depends on personality type.

As well as being able to ride flats I'd like to be a much better jumper than I am, but I'm honest enough to recognise that it doesn't represent much of my riding, sessioning bores me and I'm too old and brittle to deal with the pain and inevitable consequences of feet coming off pedals and landing badly on or off the bike.

But I'm cool with that, because I enjoy my current rides immensely and don't return from them wishing I'd ridden it on flats or sent that massively intimidating double.

Children ride bikes with flat pedals, not clipped in. Ergo, if you can't ride without being clipped in, children are better riders than you..

<tosses grenade, runs away>

🤣

Anyways.. Its not that hard. Heavy feet, light hands. Ball of the foot over the innermost front pin/corner of the pedal. Get used to both feet occasionally not being in exactly identical positions. If you're getting bounced off, you're not weighting your feet enough. Heels down!

CB Mallets on my FS e-bike - so not as 'clipped in' as shimano etc and flats on my HT. I've never struggled switching between the two, but have mostly ridden with my feet held to the pedals in some form - used to use these years ago

It’s easy to get swallowed by the ‘not a proper rider’ mantra in MTB

Also it's easy to be evangelical about radical changes you've made personally that have made a big difference to your riding and get a bit "I've seen the light" about it all.  Add in endless YouTubes about How to do a proper Bunny Hop or How to Jump for miles  or whatever, and people can get caught up in a cycle of "I'm rubbish/not doing it right/not having the fun I should"

Heels down!

i came back to say this to discover that it had already been said.

Children ride bikes with flat pedals, not clipped in.

See this is the thing - we rode bikes without spds until we started mtbing "seriously". I moved to flats when riding with my son at the DH park (after using spds since the 90s), tried a few rides beforehand and didn't really find anything new or strange about it. Pedals and shoes are so grippy these days, it's not like your feet slip around.. I now alternate, depending on what ride I'm doing.

Keep.ankles relaxed ,don't keep heals down

Keep.ankles relaxed ,don’t keep heals down

are you saying to not force your heals down?

Just ordered some deity defftraps to see if any better than the tiny burgtec penthouse flat composite pedals

Went back to flats on MTB after 25ish years because of an ankle injury which made unclipping from SPDs painful. Wish I'd done it years ago.

The surprise was when I stuck them on the cross bike to do a route I thought would have a bit of hike-a-bike in it and got up something I'd never got up using SPDs. Something about confidence to cope with tenuous balance I'm sure rather than the pedals themselves but it worked so I'm going to stick with it.

yep, dont force heals down.

Or, indeed, your heels.

I went for my first mtb ride in about three years clipped in last night (nukeproof horizon cs, not cheap by my standards. This could become a stealth ad), and have a slightly sore elbow to prove it.

In the words of Amy Winehouse I'll go back to flats.

Thought I’d try flats last year after 10+ years riding clipped in. It took a few months to unlearn all the bad spd habits but feel much more confident now. Really depends on the shoe and pedal combination to work properly, I’m using specialized 2fo and burgtec composites that are great but I mistakenly tried a pair of normal walking boots for a muddy winter ride but had hardly any grip on the pedals. Now have a pair of addidas goretex boots for winter. Was really surprised at the lack of waterproof flat shoes compared to spd.

I switch to clipless on dry tracks or over the summer. It is sublime when grip can be trusted and you do not have to worry about foot placement and just commit. The minute local gets slippy in fall/winter I am terrible on them and back to flats! No idea how racers in the UK do it in the slop. Just mad skills really. See Liam Moy or Joe Barnes up here. I scratch my head.

Some steep areas where I live and it is more about safety in the mountains I may go to flats. For me it is terrain and weather dependant I guess. Maybe I just suck.

Jedi is right - I should have clarified! Don't force your heels down, but if you weight through your feet and keep your ankles relaxed then your heels naturally drop rather than the heel-up/toe-down position that seems to be more prevalent when clipped in.

Also, set your extended saddle height to be a bit lower so you're not hyper-extending and/or lifting your heels as you go through the bottom of the pedal stroke. Helps massively I find.

yep, dont force heals down.

thanks

i’ll be watching to see what i do when i next ride

Foot position is everything on flats. Axel behind ball of foot so your foot can go into flexion as you and the bike move about. As you jump your feet point down, as this happens if your feet are in the wrong place you kick the pedal away from your foot

Really, is that correct? (I've absolutely no reason to believe it's not)

But why would your foot position be different riding flats over SPDs ?

I've been riding flats for ever with the ball of my foot squarely ON the axle after having it drilled in to me for 15+ years of my yoof on horses that the ball of your foot is on the stirrup.

Been happily doing drops, jumps, climbs, descents on flats forever with this approach (ride spds on xc bike).

Has always felt wrong when I've had to ride out a section with the axle behind the ball of my foot. I'll give this a shot next time out and see how it goes.

You never know, maybe time for a new trick for the old dog 🙂

Just a fitting note. Size matters! If you have big feet, big platforms are in order.

I've seen big-footed people with unfortunately undersized, inappropriate pedal purchases, because aggressive, small-footed riders demanded they purchase them.

Actually I think the "relax your ankles, don't force them down" is a pretty good advice. Combine that with "heavy feet, light hands" and you're set.

The problem with the "force the ankles down" thing is that then you see plenty of people doing that but with their weight too far forward. By keeping your weight on your feet the ankles will naturally drop down.

The only time I forcibly drop my ankles in when braking

Actually I think the “relax your ankles, don’t force them down” is a pretty good advice. Combine that with “heavy feet, light hands” and you’re set.

How does "light hands" fit with modern (long) geometry? I used to try to ride so my arms didn't carry much weight, but I think that puts my weight too far back now. Just pedalling along the flat, my arms take some weight even if I sit up as tall as I can, which is not how my mountain bikes used to feel. Obviously on a lumpy trail the upper body is working whatever and so it is not so simple to work out what the average weight is, but I definitely feel that heavier hands are required these days.

Been riding bikes with reach numbers between 475 and 500mm for the last few years and I feel like the "heavy feet light hands" thing works perfectly well on longer bikes. You just need to assume a more aggressive position, say lower shoulders but strong hips slightly behind the BB. Picture Greg Minnaar, he is the perfect example of that body position.

On shorter bikes one can stay planted on flat pedals with a more relaxed position with straighter arms and more upright torso, but its mostly a matter of habit