[Closed] Trail side vandals

that does confuse me. why would a mountain biker do that? a bored little pikey kid i can understand but a biker?!?

Bored Pikey kid!!! 😆

I have recently seen loads of rubbish at glen tress and carron valley - more so at tres, why does someone think its okay to leave their leftover lunch packets on the side of the trail? Is it some new modern art that I am not aware of???

I remember seeing a program on the telly where the landowner would knock them over.

"I don't come into your back garden and build stuff, don't do it in mine" was his reasoning.

Lots of folk hate cairns being built

djglover - Member
Lots of folk hate cairns being built

isn't it banned in national parks? read something on the old man of coniston saying people will be prosecuted for trail vandalism?

I never go past a cairn without adding to it. That's what I was told to do when I was wee.

I suppose technically both building them and knocking them down is vandalism. Some people probably think it doesn't look natural, which in a managed forest on an armoured trail is a bit of a joke but hey ho.

Now litter I can't stand, it's not often I go for a ride without bringing home someone else's piece of debris. If you can carry it to the top you can carry the wrapper back down. But at the same time loads of people complain, not many people do anything about it.

I agree - I am one of the poeple that run over into the moor and pick up someone else litter - I cant bear the thought that I saw it and left it - there isnt enought warnings on trails without ruining them obviously - but if they can have a cafe selling cappucino then surely they should have signs saying take your bloody litter home! some people just need reminding!

the rule about always adding to a cairn made sense when relatively few folk passed, and they were used for navigation. not so much nowadays, perhaps

IM(H)O, consider moving a rock to the top, or doing some general tiding instead as a valid alternative. or removing a rock even in the case f some of the monsters that have grown up...

they did look pretty stylish ones thought!

I'd sooner not see cairns, particularly lots of em in one area. I cant understand why people feel the need to build them.
Litter is worse tho.

Lots of pikey kids up there- Skyline Cycles drop their shutters pretty sharpish on Junior Footy training night. On the final Skyline descent (Fast Forward? Jetlag?) I've been pelted with sticks and stones in the past. The cheeky chappies later strung a rope accross the trail that almost caught another rider. Police became involved and when they called at the culprit's home they had to warn his mum not to use so much force on him once she'd heard what he'd done.

They look pretty ugly to me. I would have no problem with people knocking them down (but wouldn't go out of my way to do it).

funny to hear the mother wanted to chastise at all! It is usually down to lack of parenting or bad parenting - obviously hitting your child is bad, but at least she made the effort! 😆

Hey Ambrose we should of used the excuse of cairn building for a crafty break going up The Gap today!!??!!

the amount of stone there we could have built a pyramid 😉

There was a rally up there a couple of weeks ago. The speccys use the trail to walk into viewing spots when it's closed, and they think it's amusing to demolish the cairns, and build stacks of beer cans in other sections of the forest.
I F$£%*in hate chavs!

In Scotland last week, I couldn't beleive how clean and tidy the carparks at the trailheads were despite a distinct lack of bins.
I can only assume it encourages users to take their litter home.( we do that anyway)
The bins around the GC trailhead are often left to overflow, and it looks terrible. I've raised this point with the management committee, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.
Scotland are so far ahead of us in terms of development in all areas. Even small changes like this could be the way forward for the Welsh Centres.

Well done to the Scottish Trail network team. It's always a pleasure visiting your trails. And the cairn on top of Minch moor is a sight to behold. Look out for the tiny stone on top, that's mine that is.

They look like artistic renditions of turds.

There has been a recent movement towards getting rid of lines of cairns on the way up some of the Scottish Hills - not the summit cairns. The reasoning is that it encourages folk with poor navigation skills to go further than they can safely return from in the event of inclement weather.

I'm a strong believer in cairns. They've saved my bacon a couple of times when the mist comes down.

It's kind of arrogant and elitist to do away with them on the grounds of people with poor navigation skills. My ancestors didn't wander around the highlands clutching OS maps, GPS, and mobile phones.

I'll continue to add to and repair them.

When I saw the picture I was genuinley unsure whether the vandalism was building them or knocking them down

With cairns on the hills - when I was wee then the rule was to add a stone to the cairn. Nowadays on some popular routes there is a huge cairn every 20 ft which is unsightly.

~fair enough to have a few for navigation but the over proliferation of them is unsightly.

They are not really needed on a trail center route. Pointless really, Im glad its not encouraged.

I never go past a cairn without adding to it. That's what I was told to do when I was wee.

I do the opposite partly for the reason Druidh mentioned and partly to put the stone back on the path from where they came. Cairns are on OS maps so can be used as navigation aids so its confusing when they are everywhere, also paths on some popular routes are eroded enough without people dismantling the paths!

surfer - Member
I do the opposite partly for the reason Druidh mentioned and partly to put the stone back on the path from where they came. Cairns are on OS maps so can be used as navigation aids so its confusing when they are everywhere, also paths on some popular routes are eroded enough without people dismantling the paths!

Anyone who is picking stones of the path is doing it wrong. Unless you can prove the stone came from the path, dismantling the cairn is even wronger.

The hills are for everyone, not just the superior people with outstanding navigation skills. Cairns serve a useful purpose - especially in winter - which becomes more obvious when the visibility draws in.

Of course, maybe it's different in England. (I'm talking about the highlands)

the hills are for people who can use a map and compass. Anyone trying to navigate the highlands by cairn is an idiot.

random cairns are vandalism

Involved in a quality 'incident' in my local park yesterday. Playing a game of football with a few mates, heard some shouting and a bloke walking his dog with wife and kids was telling a load of chavs that they'd left their litter behind (was a pile of Muccy D's wrappers)

Quickly turned into chavs shouting abuse at this family and walking up to them for a bit of a confrontation, so we decided to go and help out, was fun watching the little scrotes go from bolshy to meek litter pickers in .49 seconds.

Penrod Pooch - Member
the hills are for people who can use a map and compass. Anyone trying to navigate the highlands by cairn is an idiot...

Possibly so once the elite have come up here and dismantled them. If the ruperts want to do something about the aesthetics of the highlands, how about concentrating on getting rid of the plague of subsidised windmills.

The highlands are not a wilderness playground for the leisure classes, they are a depopulated (by force) area. The traditional method of navigation was by cairns and it is still a good low tech means of navigation.

When things turn nasty, I'd sooner have a series of cairns to rely on than a map and compass. They'll still be there after my map has been ripped to pieces and the batteries on my GPS have died.

But cairns won't tell you which way you're going, just that you're following a line of cairns. Map and compass for me, and wtf are the 'leisure classes'?

Lifer - Member
But cairns won't tell you which way you're going...

They do, especially if they're old.

When things turn nasty, I'd sooner have a series of cairns to rely on than a map and compass.

And you know the cairns are leading where you want to go... how? 🙄

Yes, some cairns are useful, more so in winter when paths can drift over. But the mahoosive ones every ten yards on wide easily-followed popular routes up popular hills are a pointless eyesore. There are plenty of places where multiple cairns built randomly by idle passers-by on sunny days are *less* useful than a few well-placed ones at critical turnings.

Of course, maybe it's different in England. (I'm talking about the highlands)

that is the crux. I have seen lakeland walks with a 3 ft cairn every 20 yds and some of this is appearing on more popular Scottish routes

epicyclo - Member

They do, especially if they're old.

How?

Lifer - Member

epicyclo - Member

They do, especially if they're old.

How?

Moss and lichen on the north facing side, is what he's going to say.

Which doesn't necessarily help you figure out which valley they're taking you down into.

We climbed Ben McDui via Lurchers yesterday.It is the wrong side of the Cairngorms for me,so the first time I have used the popular route from the Ski centre.There were mini cairns every 10m,near the top where it is featureless they are an eyesore.

The hills are for everyone, not just the superior people with outstanding navigation skills. Cairns serve a useful purpose - especially in winter - which becomes more obvious when the visibility draws in.

Cairns serve a useful purpose which is exactly why creating new ones because youve managed to walk 100yds from the car park is not a good idea and should be discouraged. This would then leave those that exist on a map, hence their usefullness!

I have taken stones off cairns when I have seen them placed there after being taken from the path.
Unlike you I dont jump to conclusions.

surfer - Member
Cairns serve a useful purpose which is exactly why creating new ones because youve managed to walk 100yds from the car park is not a good idea and should be discouraged. This would then leave those that exist on a map, hence their usefullness!

Ah, I see where I'm going wrong. Carpark, 100 yards, etc, I didn't realise how navigationally challenged some folk are.

A cairn is useful whether or not it exists on a map. I wouldn't expect to find a given cairn on a map, but if it does, then that makes the map more useful.

Don't you recognise the shape of a cairn when you're on the mountain? Shape, height, individual rock features, distance from the path etc. If you've been past it before, you should recognise it and know where you are. When snow and mist change the face of the landscape, cairns are a godsend.

Ah, I see where I'm going wrong. Carpark, 100 yards, etc, I didn't realise how navigationally challenged some folk are.

What is your point?

A cairn is useful whether or not it exists on a map. I wouldn't expect to find a given cairn on a map, but if it does, then that makes the map more useful.

A cairn is a pile of stones, what use does it have to someone unfamiliar with the area unless it also exists on a map to confirm your position?

Don't you recognise the shape of a cairn when you're on the mountain? Shape, height, individual rock features, distance from the path etc. If you've been past it before, you should recognise it and know where you are. When snow and mist change the face of the landscape, cairns are a godsend.

But if you have been there before you would not necessarily need the cairn in the first place! if you recognise the shape of a cairn then you would likely recognise other more unique features of the area/path and although it may not occur to you given what you have said but what if you are not on first name terms with the cairn in question and, heaven forbid you are actually in an area that is unfamiliar (this bit is called navigation!)

surfer - Member
...But if you have been there before you would not necessarily need the cairn in the first place! if you recognise the shape of a cairn then you would likely recognise other more unique features of the area/path

You don't need cairns in conditions of perfect visibility which is when most visitors are on the mountains.

Let's go back to the points of visibility, eg snow & mist. The whole landscape can and does look totally different and you can't see far enough for the usual major visual clues, eg shape of terrain etc. A path can totally disappear with a few inches of snow. (A few feet of snow and you have an entirely different problem). Or you can be off in the heather away from the track, and the sight of a cairn will tell you where it is.

If you are in a new area, then you should be taking note of cairns you are passing. If visibility then gets compromised, you have to be a real numpty to keep going, but you can use the cairns to get back, and probably will, even if you do have a map.

Or how about I don't interfere in your method of navigation, and you don't destroy mine?

Or you can be off in the heather away from the track, and the sight of a cairn will tell you where it is.

I'm not sure if you are trolling but I'll try again.
If you have never been there how would you recognise the cairn from one of a dozen other piles of stones nearby?
The only way you can rely on a cairn (if you are new to an area) is if it is marked on a map. If it is one of many nearby then that benefit is lost, hence why those not on a map shouldnt exist.

If you are in a new area, then you should be taking note of cairns you are passing.

Thats fine if you are returning the same way but on your outward journey helps not one bit!

I wont destroy your method of navigation (although you may need more than one!) but I will continue to knock over or dismantle those that are created by walkers along the most popular routes. Hopefully you can see how me doing the latter helps you with the former.

Sigh...

[url] http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2008/11/13/nevis-cairns-job-done-now-leave-ben-in-peace-pleads-trust [/url]

Not all cairns are useful. Even in Scotland.

“These cairns should not be used as a primary feature for navigation,” he said. “There is no substitute for a map and compass, and if you are not confident with your navigation skills, do not attempt to walk to the summit of Ben Nevis in poor weather. The cairns are spaced too widely apart to be followed in poor visibility.”

What a sensible man!

Whatever happened to 'take photos, leave footprints'?

Why do people feel the need to start erecting things in the wilderness?

If you are walking in the mountains, you should be following a map and using a compass. Random piles of rocks are for muppets.

Andy Goldsworthy - what a c*nt.

[img] [/img]

one of the most thought provoking artists i know of. and mostly, it's just piles of rocks.

(and twigs)

7hz - Member
...Why do people feel the need to start erecting things in the wilderness?

It is NOT a wilderness. It is part of an ancient country that was forcibly depopulated in recent times.

Cairns are the traditional waymarkers. They are not random piles of rocks. They are part of our landscape, mark routes effectively, and have worked for thousands of years.

If you are serious about removing them, why not start by removing signposts on trails first - they are more artificial. (I am not suggesting this, just wondering why the more natural method is suddenly a target).