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We ran a little time trial round one loop of Ashton Court last weekend, and charged a couple of quid to enter. It worked pretty well as part of a larger event but it wasn't a huge draw, and crap weather didn't help.
In financial terms you're probably better off giving people a full day's racing or competition and charging accordingly, as it makes it easier to cover overheads like insurance but then you have the logistical issues of marshalling and timing a larger course.
I'd say the most successful events are races because there's always someone to race against, unless it's on a relatively technical course then going against the clock isn't quite the same buzz as beating the dude next to you.
I KNEW IT! - you're a racer boy at heart Mr_A!
I'm sure there would be issues, but Gawton manage it so it must be possible, although you have to pay a membership fee which is as much as some race entries, then the uplift costs etc, can't imagine many weekend warriors paying ~£45 to do it.
at gawton you hire a freelap watch from the uplift guys. the timing loops are built into the track.
only times recorded on the official watches count towards the dirt leaderboard. If you have your own freelap watch it'll work but the time won't count.
Not that i'd recommend issuing freelap watches to a whole field, they are mega expensive.
I think you're underestimating it.
No. you're simply judging everyone else with your own level of riding ability again 🙄
TJ 😳 - I did wonder 😕
Clubber, underneath the baggy shorts and the tubby belly I'm all about the racing. They're just to lull the oppo into a false sense of confidence. 😉
It works very well...
I remember getting passed by Liam Killeen on the tight singletrack at Drumlanrig XC NPS once - you couldn't have got a cigarette paper in that gap. Went past the chemists for a pregancy test on the way home. Sigh.
Not read all of this, but suggesting you can easily overtake on the Wall singletrack is dumb. You will be taking huge risks to do so, and the person will need to either let you or be riding very very slowly. Neither of which will happen in a race.
I know the hard way in a 'normal' XC race (one of the gorricks) the risks of going offline to try and overtake someone - took a serious faceplant in a hidden wheelsized hole....
But riding Gods like GW find it easy!
No. you're simply judging everyone else with your own level of riding ability again
There are certainly lines that top riders will find that 'mere mortals' wouldn't - I've ridden the 'July' trail at Afan with Rowan Sorrel, and he was very impressive indeed, but when you've got singletrack with a drop on one side you can't invent lines! I present the same hypothesis to you again... do you think you could pass 9 other riders, who are going maybe 5% slower than you want to (say 1mph), whilst they all try and pass the person infront, on something like the last descent of White's? I can think of a couple of places to pass slower riders, but they could make life extremely difficult for you if they didn't want you coming through.
Isn't there a bigger demand for off-road Audax style events like the HONC?
Cake, plus a challenge, plus a full day's riding, plus entry fees that aren't sixty quid is a winning formula, no?
Certainly the growth in Sportives on the road supports that. Surprised there's no 'long distance' trail centre marathons, all Afan trails in a day type thing.
Kielder 100?
Yes that's true! That's obviously only bits of trail centres though in one large loop, was thinking more of a cloverleaf course that takes in multiple trails at a certain centre. Not something I'd particularly want to do, but thought someone would have done!
Me and Clubber did an enduro at Afan a couple of years back which used bits of the built trails in a similar way to what you're describing. Unfortunately it also included way too much fire road, the weather was awful, and the relative lack of other competitors made it quite a dispiriting experience.
I don't remember there being that much waiting about after the first 20 minutes or so of the Dragon Afan enduro's.Start times were staggered to every 30 or so riders & about every 10-15 minutes.There was only one lap & it was 62K long baby !
Most trail centre singletrack has little or no opportunties for overtaking safely - generally just the switchbacks and/or chicken runs. I think there'd be problems with a mass participation race event, even with 30 second intervals. Riders being chased down would have to physically move to the edge of the narrow trail which isn't always easy and would ruin their flow.
Paceman - MemberMost trail centre singletrack has little or no opportunties for overtaking safely - generally just the switchbacks and/or chicken runs. I think there'd be problems with a mass participation race event, even with 30 second intervals. Riders being chased down would have to physically move to the edge of the narrow trail which isn't always easy and would ruin their flow.
I have to disagree - although I have not ridden loads of trail centres those I have been at have plenty of overtaking opportunities
But riding Gods like GW find it easy!
don't be so ****ing over dramatic, there's no such thing as a "riding God" the phrase is masively overused on STW by lackluster riders with inferiority isues.There are certainly lines that top riders will find that 'mere mortals' wouldn't
Rowan is a very good all round rider and seasoned DH racer but so are many many many many riders all over our country and that's exactly the point I was making about you judging others against your own level of riding ability.- I've ridden the 'July' trail at Afan with Rowan Sorrel, and he was very impressive indeed
It's not as simple as that, you need to judge each and every rider individually, for instance there's no way they will all ride the whole trail exactly 1mph slower than the chasing rider will.I present the same hypothesis to you again... do you think you could pass 9 other riders, who are going maybe 5% slower than you want to (say 1mph), whilst they all try and pass the person infront, on something like the last descent of White's?
so in order to pass you need to make the decision when and fully commit to the line you've chosen to pass on. making that pass will generally be when the rider in front is braking too much, going wide through a turn, taking a slower line or doesn't have good enough knowledge of the track to know when you can cut corners, go inside or jump a section off the main line etc. so forget hypothesis, what I can tell you is there were way more than 9 places to pass the rider in the video I posted within the first minute.
The top riders will always find somewhere to pass and generally will pass while demonstrating good grace, top riders will be able to pass in places you wouldn't expect and without fuss.
Wannabe winners often give problems though.
Most trail centre singletrack has little or no opportunties for overtaking safely - generally just the switchbacks and/or chicken runs. I think there'd be problems with a mass participation race event, even with 30 second intervals. Riders being chased down would have to physically move to the edge of the narrow trail which isn't always easy and would ruin their flow.
I have to disagree - although I have not ridden loads of trail centres those I have been at have plenty of overtaking opportunities
I've ridden almost all the welsh trail centres, but very few in England and none in Scotland admitably. However, I'd still say most red/black graded singletrack trails have few safe overtaking spots. Yes, riders would move over when asked, and yes, the top riders would seemingly flow past without fuss, but wouldn't this spoil the flow for alot of riders?
I find if someone is really holding you up it's worth striking up a conversation.
My mate Andy does it to me all the time and I invariably let him past...
Wouldn't you be better setting an unofficial TT race up with just 6-12 mates? In fact why not run a mini series... Got to be more fun, more competitive and less po faced than anything with the stiff unyeilding fingers of officialdom slowly scraping away every gram of enjoyment.
Wouldn't you be better setting an unofficial TT race up with just 6-12 mates? In fact why not run a mini series... Got to be more fun, more competitive and less po faced than anything with the stiff unyeilding fingers of officialdom slowly scraping away every gram of enjoyment.
Nice idea 😀
Rowan is a very good all round rider and seasoned DH racer but so are many many many many riders all over our country and that's exactly the point I was making about you judging others against your own level of riding ability
So are you saying that he's typical of your trail centre rider? Because I would take massive issue with that!
It's nothing to do with 'judging others against my own level', I don't know why you feel fit to judge 'my level' anyway, as you don't know me, but hey ho. If you went to White's (for consistency!) over a weekend, how many riders do you think would be faster down the hill than Rowan? 1%? 0.1%? 0.01%? One all weekend? Honestly.
In my many visits to Afan Forest I can safely say a vast majority of riders are NOT even close to the riding ability of Rowan Sorrell. One quick spin round Whytes level on a typical summer Saturday afternoon would be enough to tell you that.
However, what you would find is a wide variety of riders of different abilities, all enjoying riding their bikes in their own way, and for the most part... not judging each other!
"physically move to the side of the trail" - what, as opposed to using The Force ?? Thats what I do.
I'd agree with that! As Rowan is an Elite DH racer I'd say that you'll not find many people at DH races who are up to his riding ability either! But GW knows "many many many many", who presumably just don't race, but could actually be professional DH racers!
However, what you would find is a wide variety of riders of different abilities, all enjoying riding their bikes in their own way
+1
Which is why a) trail centres are great and b) racing on them wouldn't really work!
FFS! Njee, read what I actually wrote instead of making up your own fantasy about what you "think" I meant. FWIW Yes I do know Elite and Ex-Elite DHers who regularly ride trail centres but it's fairly irrelevant as good riders are obviously not always current or former Elite DH racers which is why I said Rowan is a very good [u]all-round[/u] rider.
I'm not judging your riding ability, you've openly admitted in the past on here that you are not a very good rider technically and shown in this thread that you don't have the confidence to make passes.
FFS!! of course racing on trail centre trails can work, it already does!!Which is why a) trail centres are great and b) racing on them wouldn't really work!
Rowan is a very good all round rider and seasoned DH racer but so are many many many many riders all over our country and that's exactly the point I was making about you judging others against your own level of riding ability
You are suggesting there, direct quote, that whilst Rowan is a good rider, he is nothing special, and there are "many many many many" riders like him.
I also think you're mistaking "Not having the confidence to make passes" with "not wanting to be a total prick". If you want to barge past people on narrow trails then I'll leave you to it, you've already shown from various replies that you're thoroughly antisocial anyway, I imagine you just push off any beginners who aren't as epic as you.
As for the racing on trail centre trails it can of course work when you intersperse them with 'normal' trails, or on certain trails with a bit of variety, but in this context, merely following a waymarked trail there are not all that many where it would work as a format.
"physically move to the side of the trail" - what, as opposed to using The Force ?? Thats what I do.
Riding up a trail like Whyte's Level climb on a typical Saturday afternoon, a fast rider will have to overtake many other riders. Due to the nature of the trail, many of those will have to pull to the side of the trail and stop to allow enough room for the faster rider to pass, and particularly on the exposed sections where one side of the trail has a steep drop. That's what I meant.
This would cause problems in a racing situation I think, but is manageable on a typical Saturday afternoon as we're all just out there enjoying getting muddy on our bikes.
No, not like him, I'm suggesting there are many more very good riders than you seem to think there are.You are suggesting there, direct quote, that whilst Rowan is a good rider, he is nothing special, and there are "many many many many" riders like him.
if we're talking about racing, no I wouldn't **** about getting past a slower rider (being a race you'd think everyone there has paid to ride as fast as they can rather than bimble along waiting behind others at a slower pace) but I wouldn't push anyone off either beginner or not. if we're not talking about racing I'm one of the most curtious riders you'l ever meetI also think you're mistaking "Not having the confidence to make passes" with "not wanting to be a total prick". If you want to barge past people on narrow trails then I'll leave you to it, you've already shown from various replies that you're thoroughly antisocial anyway, I imagine you just push off any beginners who aren't as epic as you.
I disagree but out of interest which trail centres have you actually ridden?merely following a waymarked trail there are not all that many where it would work as a format.
OK - an interesting topic.
We have just held a 12 hour overnight event at our local if rather tame trail centre - Bedgebury.
Issues
1) Places to overtake is a legitimate concern if you want to allow a range of different standard riders to be able to compete together.
2) Bottlenecks also develop - I've queued to do bits of an otherwise excellent Gorrick event.
3) Bridleways which form part of the normal trail - no racing on those.
4) Respecting the needs of other cyclists who want to use the trails
5) Respecting other users (horse-riders, walkers, dogs, sprogs etc) especially if you are dealing with a land owner like the FC who are very reluctant to stop anyone doing anything.
For our small race series this means using a separate circuit - off the usual singletrack.
For our 12 hr event it means doing things after the FC has shut its gates, and having an adapted trail using some different bits, some fire road and some singletrack.
So I suspect for the OPs idea to be workable you have to take some of these elements, ie when you do it, altered routes etc etc...
Trail centres I can think of where it wouldn't work:
- Afan
- Brechfa
- CyB
- Haldon
- Cwm Carn
- Dalby
- Penmachno
Off the top of my head! You could make a workable course at most, if not all, but to say "right... the course is the red trail" just wouldn't work IMO.
Anyway GW this 'discussion' is petty, I have my opinion, you have yours. I really don't like your online persona, you may be the nicest person in the world in real life, but online you just seem like an argumentative idiot, I wholeheartedly disagree with most of what you say and find you hypocritical and ignorant. I imagine you feel exactly the same about me, so I'll bow out! Lots of love xx
Nah, I just find you narrowmided and stubborn to the point of blind ignorance 😉
X x x
Ps. isn't all discussion on here "petty"?
Well if nothing else i did manage to stimulate some interesting discussion!!
As I said in my original post it was just[i] an idea which will now remain just that, I totally respect most of the comments and thank you for them ... looks like some Enduro's might have to be on the cards for next year then 😀
Well the whole point fo Drumlanrig was to race; the SXC raced there after the FE wouldn't open up after foot and mouth ten years ago (that's why the trails we're started there in the first place) and has returned every year since then. There have been two NPS and marathon enduro type events also.
No problems overtaking at any of these events yet the trail is generally very narrow by comparison to the FE trail centres. P'raps its because the trails are naturally surfaced so the centre line gradually turns into 'off' trail so is predictable, if you know what's what, rather than there being a 'ridden' line with loose shaley nonsense on each side, then bog or brash outside that.
I can usually get past people quite easily if I'm out enjoyoing the trails of and evenin; and in a race situation it can be a bit of a parade for half of the first lap, then it all kinda settles down and you slot into your placing and ride on your own to the finish or the cramp gets ya and everyone goes past pishing themselves.