[Closed] Tour de France stage 22 - The aftermath

I enjoyed the tour, the lack of mountain to finishes brought something new to the event.
Though the flat finishes after a mountain descent.. hmmm
a short sharp 1 to 1.5km rise at the end of these stages would be better. whoever was feeling freshest after a day's climbing would be able to take a good chunk out of those around them in the GC.

Ok Lads, a bit of an epic but these are my thoughts..

Overall:
The Course, I didn’t like it much. I felt there were too many Sprint Stages that lead to too much control by the Sprinters Teams. This lead to boring stages, no breaks were allowed to go, no punts off the front of more than 7mins, invariably 4mins max. Tootling down some stunning countryside with 1-2km gap between the forever doomed Break and the Bunch meant the only thing to watch was the stunning scenery, fabulous as this is it’s not race per se’ more of a series of Transition Stages. IMO the course needs to change, lets have some shorter Stages of 180k max, for 15 Stages of the Race, 3 250k Stages close together, then the mountains to top it off.

The Structure, TT’s should be banned. Dull as listening to Brian Smith’s inane whiney platitudes. Sprints, Fine have them but 2 max. Transition Stages, yes obviously because we need a Break to form and punt off the Front. Mountains, yes but not too many, I think this year got it right.

The Teams, quite what Wanty GG were there for I’ve no idea. The ASO’s ever burgeoning bank account and Accountants must have choked on their Croissant when the application and deposit cheque landed on the mat. Movistar, poor showing fellas. Take Quinty out of the equation for a second and they hardly performed at all, add Qunity back in and the support for him was weak and lacking in depth. Astonishingly accomplished they are, but for some reason lacked motivation. I can’t put that down to Valverde scooting out on the first Stage either, because even if he was in it would have been him only fighting for Stage wins and possibly a top 5. Fortuneo, my favourite Team, considering their budget of €3.5m they had depth, quality in both Flat Landers and Mountain men, and quality hard nuts like Dan McLay. Long may they return to fight for placings. Sunweb, awesome performance….makes me wonder why Degenholb left, but what a Team. Notable perfomances are obviously Barguil, but Mathews (not a fan) even got out of the wind once or twice to show he’s not just falling fowl of the wheelsucker moniker. But TenDam, Arndt and Geschke a formidable trio you couldn’t find anywhere. Trek, not bad lads, sad as it is Bertie isn't the rider of old anymore. Mollema is an all time favourite and he did bloody well all through and so did deKort, John was there early on but I think he's having settling in issues.. I think he's morphing into a Classics specialist and a Tour is too long for him, good effort all round and a solid performance in general. Cofodis, ye Gawds. Co’mon Lads get it together. Boot BullyBoyBuhanni out and get some depth in the squad or at least let them play to their strengths.. Edet and Navvaro were the only two we ever saw anywhere.. what happened to the other guys? C’mon ASO stop inviting them because you go to dinner with them all the time. FDJ, well.. sadly only 3 lads finished. But they tried, have to say they at lest put a decent Squad together and then fell foul of illness and crashes.. ooop’s.. Merida.. another pointless inclusion IMO. They do have strength and depth in numbers, some great names with talent but hardly going to do well with the courses they had to ride on.. TDD, brilliant performance overall, quality and talent a plenty, lit up many a dull stage and well worthy of being invited back. Stevo sadly didn’t perform even to his own utterly brilliant standard but his Eurosport comments made up for that, well do Steve. EBH, wow.. last we heard of EBH was his very lacklustre performance at Sky all those years ago, taken a whilst to get his smile back and thankfully he’s way better than before he joined the “machine”. Even taking out HeadbuttRenshaw and Cav they easily out perfomed their ranking and Powels IMO being the quality (another ex “machine’ rider) that held TDD together. Katusha, erm… I have no idea whats going on over there. Signed Tony to do the pulling only to find he’s lost a little of his spirit.. Politt was the star by a very long way.. out in the breaks (hmmm, what breaks) Machado of old occasionally flourished, Kiserlofski shaded a poorly performing Kristoff.. and Kristoff himself.. hum.. sorry but wheres that anger you once had.. hardly up there, hardly making contact with the sprint group and coming in two splits down? I think the regime is killing the team personally. Bora, have nothing much to say other than well done Burghart for taking it up and punting off the front and riding out front until your legs fell off.. Superstar and all round good egg, the others were lost once Majka, Sagan and his brother were out.. no direction, nowhere to go, no real need to break a sweat other than Burghart who took it up when the others lacked. Lotto NL, once Van Emden and Gesink went out that was it for them. Always up for a fight the sparky and sprightly LNL can be relied upon for Breaks and Frolicks in the mountains, thankfully they have Gronewagen and Rojlic which just goes to show even with 5 left yo can still out punch Katusha. QS.. well heres a thing, I thought they’d do extreeemly well and they almost did, but loosing Trentin and Gilbert kinda made them loose the firepower of a solid second row forwards with the wit and willingness to punt out. I’m ignoring Kittel because he rides a Mamil Bike and talks about himself in the third person, pretentious oik. Dan Martin is forever in the mountains on his own, he’s always been a singular fighter in what ever team he’s been in, but this is now a very sad reflection on Teams lack of support for him, Dan .. please move teasm to someone who will support your heroic efforts .. theres a lad. Direct Energie.. fabulous performance as always, can’t ignore Voeckler’s doomed breaks and heroic punts and the Tour will be a sad place now he’s unclipping. But notable performances form Sicard, great win by Calmajane, Chavanels form back in place (now that he’s retiring) and Petit and Tulik super support crew. UAE..hmmm another ASO toping up the bank balance squad. Hardly a day went by to see Ulissi and Swifty try something to only lack the depth they need. It’s early days, a new team yet to gel properly I know, can’t leave Attapuma out can I? Well yes, a couple of punts but too much pressure on young legs and a rider who lacks confidence in the mountains I feel. Astana.. Ok, who turned out the lights? What happened to the Aru support network? Where was the firepower and legs to drag the gaping Aru up the hills or tear the legs off the “machine” ? Not like they’ve not got any quality or ability, I think loosing Fuglesang killed the squad, Valgrens public spat and open chats with Sky upset the management so much I thought at one point Valgren would be found in a layby comatose with a suspect package placed in his inside pocket.. Grivko, a solid more experienced rider there isn’t. at least we got to see him grind aaaaaawwwwaaay.. occasionally. But Aru needs support, he needs a solid decent happy domestique to tag along with.. despite Nibb’s raised eyebrow I think they’d have made a great team together but Nibbs is his own man and off he went to form a squad around him.. Aru’s left to pick up the pieces and I don’t’ think he has the management skills to do that, he’s just a decent nice bloke who happens to ride bakes really bloody well. Lotto.. Well what happened here I ask? Greipel isn’t the only guy in the squad and thankfully he knows that, they work incredibly well as a tight nit team, quality in spades and intuitive too.. loosing Wellans was hard, but Thomas De Ghent turned out impeccably well, being a huge fan of his I’m biased but still.. superb effort Sir. Notable performances from Roelandts and Gallopin too brought the team well up there and worthy solid performance.. lets see how far TdG’s combative claim goes.. AG2r, well they came, they fought and they performed impeccably IMO. Flushes of brilliance, tactics typically French (and all the better for it) and some real quality and commitment. Bardet was Epic, a truly great performance worthy of a winner. We know he lacks a TT mentality, but who cares about TT’s? there should be more to the Tour than expecting a quality rider to hunkerdown in a stupid position whilst in pain. But I’ll never now forget the images of him in the gutter, totally drained. I go on about riding till you puke, but that effort was very touch and go for me to accept as normal. Come back soon AG2r, French Cycling is back where it belongs. I have one word of caution, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO FOLLOW THE ‘machine” Do your own riding, your own squad preparations and your own training regimes. BMC, they came, they tried something, they left without much. Another hugely experienced and intelligent squad left to try riding like thieyre riding on their own in a training camp. GVA, Schar, Wyss, DeMarchi, Kung and Moinard .. my word if you wrote that down on paper and said “I think we could sign these guys” you’d cream your pants at the possibility.. but they rode like they were on a training camp with flashes of brilliance let down by a lack of intelligence. Portes Punt was sad to see, but even with him in I don’t think they’d have done much more than they did, I don’t think Porte really has the depth to win a Tour, but I think given the support anyone of those other guys do. Cannondale, well yeah but.. but.. yeah kinda… Phinney did well, but not sparkling. Talansky is a great flat lander but there was hardly any flat in the Tour, where was Rolland? Hmmm.. I’m not the only one asking either and then Uran.. Uran of old Uran or quality and measured skill. Thankfully he quit the “machine” because frankly that regime wasn’t in his best interests, now Cannondale have the ability lets see some more support and direction to the management please. Orica, nah.. another ASO cheque deposit scheme, came, blurred a bit, floundered a bit, and left Yatesy to do it all himself.. That’s not fair nor very supportive but it shows Yatesy has a quality far more worthy of another team, please move. And we a re here, Sky. The ‘machine” a data driven network of power outputs and algorithms. Notable perfomances were Kyri now looking like hes ready for retirement and Kwiato to take over where Kyri once rulled effortlessly, Kwiato is the star of the squad IMO, without whom Sky would have faltered. Landa is one of my alltime heros and should get the hell out of Sky right now and take Nieve too.. two more quality riders shown the red card by the “machine” you’d not see. Thomas and his retirement didn’t seem to hurt anyone at all, begs the question why such a quality rider wasn’t missed more.. but then Sky were by far the best prepared and controlling interface of any squad I’ve ever seen in any Tour., even going back to the Discovery Days (but that was an era of bullyboy and nastiness) this era is just a numbers game and placing pieces on a moving chessboard at the right time, clinical and bloody boring. Froomy is not a winner of the Tour, the Sky Team are. Froomys lack of anything other than a squirt of 200mtrs, to catch a small break or stretch of the legs, is a typical of his riding abilities. Kwiato should have won this, or Landa. I don’t like the “machine” I hate their tactics and roadblocks and management style.

The ASO and it’s grip. Yes it’s theirs, yes the French Government support it, yes it’s a Travel Show, yes its French, yes it’s a Travel Show… is it a Race? I think it’s lost it’s way honestly. It’s now a media platform for promoting the French Countryside and it’s enviable location and variety.

TV coverage, Eurosport I’m a huge fan of. There at the beginning of the TV revolution and here to the end, great commentary and wit. Kirby-Kelly show was excellent, Matt Stephens is utterly fantastic, please let his humour come through it’ll be ace, kick Whiny Smith out please.. dear God what squeaky whiney bore of a man.. and Rob Hatch should eat more chips, speak less, stop regurgitating the same old platitudes and wildly exaggerated pronunciations.. But thanks lads and Jonathon Edwards for asking some pointed questions and showing just how nice a bloke should be.

All IMO.

And thanks to all that have taken the time to comment and criticise, punt and pundit and Lunge for encouraging us to get involved during our turbulent working days.

hell any chance of some paragraphs in that!!

Breathe Bikebouy, breathe man...

Theres full stops and commas and every fink...

I did set it out, but when posted it's crammed it altogether.

S
O
Z

But it is lunchtime, gotta digest [i]something[/i]...

A question, given that Landa finished 90 seconds down on Uran, if Froome wasn't there, would he have won?

We will never really know. Or care. 😈

more seriously I suspect he will be added to the list of Porte, Poels, Thomas maybe...

hell any chance of some paragraphs in that!!

I had to highlight each part as I read it.

^ ****ing hell looks like someone's been typing for 3 weeks solid.

"The Giro-Tour double is buried for a generation I think."

Don't agree, I fancy that Yates lad for the double.

Don't agree, I fancy that Yates lad for the double.

well if the yellow and pink jerseys fit whose to say that Adam can't ride as a super domestique for Simon? Or the other way round.

Love the headline that popped up on my FB trending (aka yesterday's news today)...

Chris Froome Wins Tour de France, Again

Sums up the ennui that the mainstream media outside the UK must feel.

Heroes: Team Sky for fielding a team with such strength in depth & single-minded will to win. Other teams take note - you need your top riders here with their egos left at home.

Special hero mention for Michael Matthews. He was already closing the gap to Kittel before he Kittel crashed out. He showed utmost consistency throughout - reminds me of Thor Hushovd.

Villains: Not that impressed with the Sagan decision but perhaps "villain" is pushing it.

Highlights: seeing such a strong list of GC contender who got themselves in the right condition at the right time and took the fight to Froome.

Lowlights: Gee, Porte, Cav & Kittel crashing out.

General thoughts: see the conclusions thread, but in short this was a parcor designed for Bardet, who I think looked stronger than last year. That said, Sky saw this too & responded with a Froome who can now handle his bike incredibly well when compared to years gone by & a team of winners who left their egos at home to pursue their given task.

Chris Froome Wins Tour de France, Again

🙂 Quite amusing that. It's a phenomenal achievement that the public seem fairly blasé about. To put it into perspective, the only riders who have (officially!) won more TDF than Froome are Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault and Indurain. Some company to be keeping.

Kinda disappointing tour for me overall.
Too many mountain stages not finishing up mountains.
Gutted we didn't get to see what Richie Porte and 'G' had to offer.

Things i'd like to see, more mountain finishes - particularly ones suited to out and out climbers - mountain stages finishing at the end of long valleys are a total waste of a stage.
1 steep mountain TT, maybe something like:
[img] [/img]
And one long (60km) pancake flat TT

So 21 Stages:
4 Sprinters stages
6 middle mountain stages (2 of which with a glimmer of hope for sprinters)
7 High mountain stages (with 5 summit finishes)
2 Classics style stages with punchy uphill finishes
1 Mountain TT
1 60km Paris TT to finish

I'd maybe start with a short ITT again, maybe one flat sprint stage, but then go straight into some mid-mountain stages. Always good to see breakaway chancers in yellow 🙂

I want more cobbles

I like your stage list Fifeandy!

I want more cobbles

That's a tough one. Makes for great spectacle but it usually also means bad crashes and abandonments, which can be to the detriment of the race. Think I'd rather they leave the cobbles to the classics.

Fifeandy - costal crosswind stages please. Always fun and a real leveller bringing the light climbing machines back down to earth, hopefully making sure they need to attack when it goes up.

costal crosswind stages please. Always fun and a real leveller bringing the light climbing machines back down to earth, hopefully making sure they need to attack when it goes up.

tidal causeways 😈

But they're fun.

A Lindisfarne finish on the next GB grand depart Aracer?

Guy Smiley:
[img] [/img]

Mikel Landa:
[img] [/img]

Can you do Aru and Ed Miliband?

My thoughts are that people seem to be forgetting people ride bikes not machines.

Also can the Yates brothers swap blood between each other without anyone knowing? Bit like Tyler Hamilton and his "twin"

Hillclimb TT yes please.
I like the final stage, all those sprinters who've dragged themselves over the mountains deserve something.
A couple of classic type finishes yes please.
Could the flat stages be made more interesting by giving breakaways more chance to succeed? Narrower roads, lots of corners, radios banned?
Also bigger gaps between GTs would be great ideally resulting in the last week of le Tour being the first week of the school holidays so I can take the kids over!

Hill climb tt with no rules on weight of bike!

eBikes allowed 😆

eBikes allowed

... and you have max 30 seconds of "power up" you can use during each stage and once you use some of your power up you can't use it again for 60 seconds.

How about two dedicated 'bike swap zones' per stage. Scrap the weight limit too! 5kg hill climb machine for the mountain then onto your disc-braked aero bike with 32's and a dropper for the descent?

Brilliant, you could recharge them in a Zone going downhill (for instance) but only for a couple of turns, then you've had it until the next Zone.
And we need a Guru who could run the whole show, make billions and influence the world TV networks that it's "like the best thing eva" and command a high fee. Then, that income could be distributed un-equally favouring the big teams Obvz.

I'm writing to Mr Cookson with a Scope and Approach document I've just put together on the back of a Gel Packet I've found in the bushes,

Heros: Bardet for exciting racing, Uran for never say die attitude, Martin for constantly attacking

Villains: Aru for attacking le Maillot Jaune whilst having a mechanical - and the French fans for booing and being not good sports

Highlights: The race up the airstrip where Froome was in trouble - the only time it looked there was genuinely a race on.

Low lights: flat stage tedium

Your general thoughts:
Strangely this has been the most exciting - and simultaneously - the most boring, Tour in recent years.

Exciting that the top 4 were separated by less than 30 seconds entering the final week - so all to play for and the promise of great battles to come.
Boring because those epic battles didn't occur - plus too many tedious flat stages.

What I want from sport is excitement and I think most people do. We want epic battles, we want toil and suffering, jubilation, heroism, intrigue and suspense. We want to be on the edge of our seats, or jumping up and down screaming at the telly.

I'm very glad Chris Froome won - but I would have preferred he'd been put under extreme pressure and this his victory was hard-fought, hard-won and that we'd witnessed epic battles along the way.

Sadly, we didn't.

They should add an extra jersey

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/07/commentary-case-red-combativity-jersey-tour-de-france/

Reducing team sizes may help spice things up but not unless they are drastically smaller. Sky still won with a super domistique missing for most of the race in any case.

I agree about the comment higher up. Every stage needs to have an impact on a major part of the race. A jersey needs to be fought over or the days racing needs to be exciting in itself not just break, catch, jersey leaders fight it out.

I quite liked the short punchy stuff - good near he start to let some new faces wear yellow. Also the really steep stuff compared to the long drags seemed to mix things up.

I'd sooner see an exciting race then Froome win.

They should add an extra jersey

I'm all for the Thomas De Gendt jersey. Even though he somehow didn't win it. Which maybe is the problem with such a jersey. They'd need to figure out a more transparent method of awarding it.

I agree about the comment higher up. Every stage needs to have an impact on a major part of the race. A jersey needs to be fought over or the days racing needs to be exciting in itself not just break, catch, jersey leaders fight it out.

Genuinely not sure that could happen every day for 3 weeks, riders would be falling over with fatigue!

Part of the point of those transition days is it's all a scripted act. Breakaway goes, everyone sits up and relaxes, chills out and the scenery becomes the star of the show.

The race-defining moment was a recovery from a mechanical. Sadly that sums it up for me. Kwiak was excellent. Bardet needs to TT, see IL pirata for past lessons. And the green jersey was won by the last man standing/sprinting.

A classic it was not.

But the threads have been great. Thanks lunge.

We want epic battles, we want toil and suffering, jubilation, heroism, intrigue and suspense

I saw all that.

It was just close, that was all. There were plenty of attacks, it's just that no-one could get far enough away. If Froome had been able to leave Aru in his dust then he'd have won by miles and it would have been far less interesting.

They definitely need more shorter stages (120km max) and mountain top finishes. I like a good descent as much as the next person but it is getting borderline dangerous to have finishes shortly after a descent, you're basically just testing which riders are willing to take the most risk.

Shorter stages would also mean more chance to have a women's race before which can only be a good thing (I think it needs to start as a 5 day Tour for them, probably starting in the second week of the men's Tour and build from there).

The 200km+ flat stages are just a snooze fest when the weather doesn't cause drama. I get it's a wearing out process but what's wrong with sprinters arriving with fresher legs?

I think it's 8 man teams next year isn't it? 6 would be better IMO, with 8 you can still control the flat and mountains (as Sky essentially did when Geraint crashed out). With 6 then there'd be more tactics and more chances for the best laid plans to evaporate.

Ultimately though a 3 week Tour should test a rider's all-round ability which is why Froome is still the best. Bardet may have been a better climber this Tour but until he sorts his TT out he won't be winning the TdF (in it's current format anyway).

Shorter stages would also mean more chance to have a women's race before which can only be a good thing

I don't think it'd increase the chances. On a 120km flat stage the men would be absolutely hammering it and you'd have to set the women off at 9am or something like that as the caravan two hours ahead of the men at the start.

One problem with this "women racing before the men" is I don't think TV audiences would sit there from 10am to 5pm watching the women's race AND the men's race so you'd end up like the Ronde with 5 mins here and there during the normal coverage. Don't get me wrong, it's worth trying something like the last 3-4 days of the tour have La Course running ahead but the timing is going to be nigh on impossible to run exactly the same stage on the same day.

but it is getting borderline dangerous to have finishes shortly after a descent, you're basically just testing which riders are willing to take the most risk.

I think descending should be part of it, so I'm the opposite to this.

If the comment is about Porte's crash, then he stacked it because he's not a good descender, not because he took risks per se, IMO. He was poor on the same descent (Chat) in the Dauphine too.

Just to give an idea of time differentials, despite the lauding in the press that van Vleuten went up the Iozard in a time that would land her in the top 10 of the men's race, it depends on when you judge it from. If you just take the steeper end section then it's a pretty big difference:

7.3km, 588m, 8%

Bardet - 22:00
van Vleuten - 27:16 (124% of Bardet's time)

On the run in when the men were taking it easy the women were LOADS faster without a doubt as they had less distance to cover and they were firing people out the back like a machine gun.

Not to take anything from the women but the broom wagon attrition rate would be pretty brutal if the race wasn't to start too early in the morning.

Heroes

Froome and Sky for finding a way to win on a course designed for Bardet

Froome again for riding back on after his mechanical on stage 15 despite Ag2R going full gas

Kwiatkowski for emptying himself again and again. Could he turn himself into a GC rider?

Villains

The French for their disrespect of the yellow jersey

I thought this tour was much better then is being described above, the GC wasnt decided until the TT with lots of riders in the mix. I do think the other teams need to challenge Sky more, AG2R did this somewhat on the last couple of stages.

Apart from that, I think I want the power meters to be banned from racing. I have a small doubt in that I don't want to block progress but I think this would open things up more than most of the other ideas. I want to keep the radios as to me that adds more than it takes away.

I don't agree with this or what Boardman said (remember they have a daily show to fill and need content to get people engaged) if you watch Froome going backwards on the airport finish climb, his power meter didn't really help him there! It showed Froome and Sky to be human instead of cyborg winning machines which can pedal hundred of watts for 6 hours a day, hopefully teams noticed this and will smarten up to how they could win the TDF next year.

Last night was quite empty without the hour highlight show, I even miss the music from the intro...

I thought this tour was much better then is being described above

Agreed. People seem to have unrealistic expectations.

A bike race like this is a combination of factors - the parcours, the riders taking part, their team priorities, their form, the weather, accidents & illness, tactical nous...

It could have been a thrilling race if Porte hadn't crashed out (and ****ed Dan Martin up in the process). As it was, it was more than adequate IMO.

Tweak one element, like making teams smaller for example, and then people will be whinging that teams aren't supporting their GC contenders adequately because they've concentrated on their sprinter instead, or there are loads more pro conti teams doing doomed breakaway attempts.