I notice that the brake levers are now held on with Torx bolts, meaning I need another tool on my multi tool. WHY? What the heck was wrong with normal hex bolts? It's a conspiracy by Big Tool isn't it?
Guessing it’s sram brakes. Sram do use Torx bolts quite a bit. My multi tool already has 2 or 3 Torx bits on it as well as Allen bolts - only a cheap Topeak thing at that. In some ways Torx bolts are better as they don’t round out so easily - albeit I only put controls on the bars at 5nm of torque
Yes. Probably some guy/gal from the automotive industry got involved.
Brake levers (SRAM) have been torx for ages now. "In theory" they're "better" as it's harder to round off torx, so you should be able to get the bolt torqued 'just so' but in practice - unless you're a gorilla who leans on every bolt, the torque of brake levers isn't so high that they're in danger of rounding anyway. But rounded off hex are the work of Satan, so in that way, I guess it's an improvement.
In some ways Torx bolts are better as they don’t round out so easily –
my night before the trip brake bleed which required a drill to get that rounded reservoir cap torx bolt out says otherwise!!!!!!!
are the torx on the controls the same as disc bolt ones? if so I think all my multitools have them on there and my t-handled allen set came with one too
You can use a Torx on a hex head, but not vice versa...
No problems with torx. I think most multitools, unless very old, have at least a T25 on them, if not more. But it's not a bad idea to standardise your bolts if you don't carry torx tools, certainly for low strength applications like shifter and brake clamps.
Or on the flip side, why aren’t all the bolts on bikes Torx? A week doesn’t go by without someone on homers complaining they’ve rounded a hex bolt on their bike. Torx would help remedy that.
Also, why do they have to use so many different sized hex bolts on a single bike? I’m sure it’s not necessary all the time.
They're low profile dome head bolts usually and a hex would be shallow enough to risk rounding, especially in soft stainless. Old fashioned full size cap head - fine as a hex in those sizes.
Torx isn't that great, it has advantages, but mostly it's niche production line stuff like you can apply spinning tools to stationary parts, lower tool wear, the tool can be off-axis, the tool tends to shear off before the part. The peak torque it can deliver is actually only about higher than a comparable hex/allen head, and both are about 10x higher than would strip the aluminum threads or crush your carbon bars.
It's a PITA though, as no one carries a T20/T27 which seem to be what SRAM use.
You can use a Torx on a hex head, but not vice versa…
This is why I never lend out tools 🤣
Also, why do they have to use so many different sized hex bolts on a single bike? I’m sure it’s not necessary all the time.
Weight saving I suspect.
My roadie stem has steel M4 bolts (I'm guessing hi-tensile) as they'll be considerably lighter than most MTB stem bolts which seem to be M5 stainless, or even M6 because MTBers are fashion conscious magpies.
They’re low profile dome head bolts usually and a hex would be shallow enough to risk rounding, especially in soft stainless. Old fashioned full size cap head – fine as a hex in those sizes.
Which begs the question, why aren't disk rotors countersunk? I'm sure some used to be or am I imagining that?
I think Hope were at one point. When they were 5 bolt before Shimano came along and used their scale to set the standards.
Which begs the question, why aren’t disk rotors countersunk?
becasue the domed bolts hit the inside of the fork when they're loose, thus giving you an inbuilt aural warning of impending death. Don't ask me how I know this...Errr a friend told me
Guessing it’s sram brakes. Sram do use Torx bolts quite a bit. My multi tool already has 2 or 3 Torx bits on it as well as Allen bolts – only a cheap Topeak thing at that. In some ways Torx bolts are better as they don’t round out so easily – albeit I only put controls on the bars at 5nm of torque
Not consistently though. If you buy a set of aftermarket SRAM brakes they come with a very useful little Torx key that does the small Torx on the bleed screw and the size on the clamp (neither of which feature in most multitools). One lives in my pack and I've got pile of them after building up a load of bikes (if anyone wants one for the price of a stamped addressed envelope ask away).
All the bolts on the actual caliper are still hex.
Magura too.
I prefer them and wish shimano used them on cranks actually.
if you look at “well used” torx bits you can see that they twist rather than damage the bolt. I’d rather break a tool than have to extract a broken bolt.
Which begs the question, why aren’t disk rotors countersunk?
You want the rotational alignment to float so you don't get the bolts fighting each other, tolerances of the rotor holes would need to be tighter with 6 csk bolts and more machining required.
I think Hope were at one point. When they were 5 bolt
Correct, and many seized in, which were an utter nightmare to remove. Involved filing flats on the tiny bit of protruding head and using mole grips to get a purchase on it.
If only we had torx bitd.
Stems that have 4mm bolt on the faceplate and 5mm on the steerer are my bugbear.
try changing/removing a shimano front brake. which I think uses every tool up to the 5mm.
Yes, these are the SRAM brakes on my new bike. Pleasingly, they supplied a free multi-tool in the box with Torx bits for both the rotors and the controls, which was much appreciated. So another 'like' for Nukeproof.
Specialized put a Torx on the lever clamp for my Command Post as well. Until now that was the only one in that size on any of my bikes, utter bastards.
Yep, torx is chosen because better for manufacturers, much the same reason that Phillips screwdrivers were adopted. People think it's better for us and maybe it is on day one but once it's been out in the world, filled with mud, maybe corroded a bit or had the edges scraped, it's not.
It's doubly annoying when it's in an alu bolt- I love my Formulas but this is crap. "Hi, we've given you a soft bolt in a location you'll only undo once a decade or so, and to make it worse we've used the smallest possible tool we can with the worst depth of engagement. Good luck!"
5mn is crazy high for controls
Mine are at 3mn max I'd guess, as I always thought you were meant to leave them loose enough to move in a crash
M not n.
Every pivot, shock mount, seat post clamp, stem bolt, compression cap, lockon grip clamp, and rear axle is torx on Scott.
I don't have a tool without t25 and almost every synchros tool I have has all the relevant t-sizes for the bike.
I like it as I've lost most of my ball end Allen's but my torx set is still complete
benefit of this type of tool that you add/change bits to suit your bike (and that riding buddy who never has tools...)#
and are so much better to use than the penknife style of tool.
See I got one of those and I do like it but I went back to my old Hexus, just prefer it most of the time. But then it's a relaly, really good multitool
You want the rotational alignment to float so you don’t get the bolts fighting each other, tolerances of the rotor holes would need to be tighter with 6 csk bolts and more machining required.
That makes some sense, but then so does the way car's do it, two countersunk bolts to make sure it's perfectly aligned, and then the wheel nuts.
If only we had torx bitd.
Torx pre-dates Hope's first hydraulic brakes by over a quarter of a century.
try changing/removing a shimano front brake. which I think uses every tool up to the 5mm.
Which is all the more annoying as PRO (i.e. shimano's finishing kit brand) made a big deal of using all the same sized heads when they did the Atherton's kit.
Especially as I can't even see what the little release pin brings to the party? It probably saves a few seconds in assembly with the operator holds the lever in place and tries to align the bolt/tool. And it's a lot more friendly than SRAMs matchmaker clamp. But still, it must cost them a few pennies to make, and then it just infuriates every user from then on.
Still, could be worse, what is it with car brakes? 7mm allen keys and 7mm heads on bleed nipples. Neither of which generally exist in a normal set (....2, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10)!
Stems that have 4mm bolt on the faceplate and 5mm on the steerer are my bugbear.
mine is why I need a 6mm for the front axle but a 5mm for the rear. Why?
That makes some sense, but then so does the way car’s do it, two countersunk bolts to make sure it’s perfectly aligned,
I've only ever seen 1, but 2 would work. I assume this isn't an alignment feature though, I assume this is to stop the disc flapping around during production and it needs to be csk to prevent the head fouling the wheel. Car discs are also a lot thicker so there's enough thickness for the taper. Alignment of a car disc radially always seems to be on a bore anyway and a little bit of runout on the edge probably doesn't make any difference, it just needs to be true to the mounting flange face.
Stems that have 4mm bolt on the faceplate and 5mm on the steerer are my bugbear.
Considering the respective forces they need to resist against rotation, I'd think the steerer needs to be held tighter than the bar. That means more torque (e.g. 8Nm vs. 5Nm), which requires larger bolts.
I don't mind torx but I like to be able to use the ball end of an allen key to spin bolts out quickly