Gambled on a second hand frame that needed new pivot bolts and bearings; purchased these and have test fitted the bolts while waiting for the bearings to arrive and discovered the rear (FSR) linkages are bent. I was able to get the frame together by putting the bolts in in an order that allowed me to fit the bolts to the easiest bit to pull on last and the frame builds up straight. But obviously the whole rear end is under a significant lateral load all the time.
It is the drive side FSR pivot that shows the bend, the two halfs when matched up are significantly out of parallel with each other when not held in place by all the other bolts, when built up this pivot is going to be quite stiff, the suspension action is very stiff now, though I don't know how much of that will be alleviated when I replace the bearings. I suspect not enough.
Anyway, that wasn't my only mistake; I paid cash on collection. I'm going to contact the seller about getting my money back, but not really sure how the ebay complaint process works if you didn't pay with PayPal; how do I get my money back if the seller just ignores me?
Cheers in advance, try to resist the urge to point out my mistakes as I'm already aware of them.
Don't know how you could have foreseen this if frame was supplied dissassembled, without seeking a promise that all faults were described.
Dunno about ebay protection.
I'm sure you'll get lots of helpful suggestions involving taking your mates/a crowbar etc.
contact seller in writing and explain the problem and ask what they want to do about it (refund/new parts)
if they ignore you/won't play ball then your only recourse is via small claims court etc.
do you have a receipt?
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Most intense and santa cruz blurs out there have this issue.
Rather than bent its more likely just how it came from shop
How much is it out by?
My old intense was out by about 1/4", and the current Turner is a couple of mm out. It's not as precise a science as you think it might be!
My ellsworth was always slightly out too, only noticed when i took all the bolts off to check the bushings.
It's not that it doesn't match up, but the pivot is twisted, so the two surfaces that should sit parallel don't any more. It is twisted enough that if I build it up and do that bolt last I can get the bolt through the pivot, but not into the threaded hole on the inside of the frame; the two holes are out of alignment by about 3mm.
I can put it together by doing this bolt first, twisting it a bit to do the second bolt, then twisting it a bit more to do the main frame bolts, but the mechanism is very stiff.
If it just needed bending in or out a bit then it would be fine, but there's no way of getting it together without this one pivot being very stiff, I suspect it will simply not work well, destroy bearings and slowly wear the frame. I suppose as a last resort I could have it machined back parallel and fit spacers, but then a cheap frame becomes and expensive one with a weakness.
Personally, if it's only 3mm out, and it was a cheap frame, I'd try gently teasing (OK bending!) it back into position. Alloy will bend a bit if you're gentle.
stick your new bearings in. at the mo you're measuring the movement with shot bearings aren't you? 3mm is a gnat's chuff ( engineering term 😉 ). you'll probably find it fine.
Get your mates and a crowbar.
No, it's not 3mm laterally, it's a 3mm maximum gap caused by the frame being twisted, not bent. New bearings won't make any difference.
i caught what you meant. up to you. 3mm on a frame bought cheaply? i'd live with it and put up with more frequent bearing replacements, so long as it moves up and down smoothly enough, or just take it back.
Got any pics?
Spesh did my mate a good deal on a new back end when he found a crack in his 03' Enduro.
(Incidentally he stuck the new back end in the shed till the old one completely failed...& 3yrs later his 16st is still blasting around on the original).
3mm is nothing, i wouldn't be supprised if it was like that from new to be honest.
ton will have a solution I think.
Seriously, it isn't just out of line, it's twisted. It wasn't like that from new, honestly, it couldn't be put together without a lot of difficulty and the rear end is stiff to the point that the suspension wouldn't work properly. Honestly, please believe me, 3mm might not be much when the mating surfaces aren't parallel, but it's a lot when it's been twisted.
bought as seen - you don't have a leg to stand on.
Get some pics up, folk might have ideas for a cheap fix.
OK. I suggested bending. But, no, it's twisted. Twist it back again then!
If it was cash in the hand no formal receipt, then its sold as seen and tested! You can always try and contact the seller and have a word with him about it. You never know he might offer you a solution. You have spent a bit on the bearings and bolts etc I bet. How long since you paid for it? Maybe buy an hardtail!
Just to ease your mind, Santa Cruz frames don't get their bearing seats to line up, because that's not how it works. You have to use the proper bearing glue, and use an alignment tool specific to the bike. Hence why so many bearing sets fail quickly if the bearings are incorrectly seated.
So why not use the same technique on this frame. Use the loctite (specific stuff, not threadlock) and forego the jumping up and down on the fram.
Worth a go...
It was sold without the bolts, I couldn't check the frame alignment without bolting it together, so the problem was effectively hidden when I bought the frame.
The problem is that the top arm sits inside two metal plates on the bottom arm at the FSR pivot. As the top arm is bent, then this pivot is scraping on both sides of the lower arm pivot housing, bearing alignment isn't the issue, the frame simply doesn't fit together any more.
I will get a picture for you later as there seems to be a few issues in visualising the problem judging by some responses.
Twisting it back might be an option, but it would require some very complicated clampage, possibly buying a new and bigger vice and god knows how I'd go about applying the required leverage?
How long is it since you bought it?
My FSR used to wear out one side of the shock shaft - came the conclusion it was twisted from new. It was a bugger to re-assemble after bearing cahnges. the top bolt through the shock also ended up bent.
Build it up and see if it works, but expect fast wear on shock eye bushes and possibly the shock.
I can't see how you can do much more than suggest there is a problem and hope he gets embarassed.
essentially if he does not play ball your stuck with it.
Have you contacted specalized asking for a price for a replcement?
My idrive had a slightly twisted back end that ended up wearing one side of the shock but i got that all changed under warrenty.
ebay protection only works if you've paid by paypal
I would contact spesh, but as others have said 3mm is more than likely still in tolerance. All the spesh's frame i've owned have all been well out of alignment (and hence ate bushings and bearings)
my blur was 3mm out on the lower pivot link rode fine
[i]"Took a gamble on a second hand frame"[/i]
...so you gambled and lost. Isn't that the risk with gambling? Seems a bit unfair to start asking for your money back when you knew the frame wasn't in A1 condition.
It was sold without the bolts
For me that would have set alarm bells ringing! The bolts are of no use for anything else! Without a shock is one thing, but no bolts? I'd have walked away!
>wasn't in A1 condition
It should still be in serviceable condition tho'.
Get in touch with Spesh UK, they've been v. helpful with both myself and a mate in the past.
I said in the first post I didn't need replies pointing out my mistakes, thanks. I was told the frame was fine, just a few scratches, but missing some bolts.
3mm out due to twisting doesn't sound like normal 'tolerances to me.
I doubt you'll have much luck through eBay, unfortunately.
I'd contact Spesh about a new rear end and in the meantime try & twist it back. If it's unrideable as it is, does it matter if you completely balls it up?
You might be able to get an engineering/machining company to do a beter job than you could do with an adjustable spanner though so maybe look for someone local?
Alternatively could you get some kind of spherical bearing, similar to these:
http://www.igus.co.uk/wpck/default.aspx?PageNr=2503
that can tolerate the misalignment you have & still operate? It's hard to know without pics, but might be a solution.....?
That Santa Cruz info surprised me. When I had my 04 Endurp apart it wasnt exactly precision machining. When I had my Ventana apart...well lets say you could tell the difference. It was spot on.
Where are you ?
Do you know any machinists ?
What exactly is twisted, the sub-frame or the mounts for the sub-frame ?
It's the drive-side rear seat stay (equivalent) that has twisted, mainly. I think the best approach is to twist it back rather than machining it, it would loose a lot of thickness in the mounting to straighten as 3mm out of whack means 6mm of metal removed when both sides are done. I'm in South Manchester.
I don't think sperical bearings would help, the problem is the interaction between the seat stay and chain stay themselves, the bearings aren't having any impact on the problem.
Threaten the seller with a neg. It came without bolts? Sorry, yes some frames are slightly out but it is worrying if the bolts are missing etc.
You know. Some bikes arent secured properly on bike racks ...and sometimes drop off the back at speed.
Do you get where I am coming from and going to with this? You dont know how this came about- manufacturer tolerance or an another.
Sorry. I wouldnt trust it. It would always be at the back of my mind on a descent.
Send it off to Kaesae for a refurb.....
😉
You're saying it's the Horst link pivot on the seatstay section that's bent? i.e the small bit that drops below the seatstay at the wheel end and holds 2 small bearings? And this is bent about 3mm off vertical?
When I had to replace the chainstay section of my enduro it was a bugger to get the Horst link back together. However, the seatstay and chainstay section of the Horst link pivot were both perfectly vertical it was just that the chainstay section needed pulling apart/spreading by about 2mm to fit over the seatstay section. That sort of alignment issue I guess is due manufacturing tolerance, while a bent (off vertical) horst link bearing holder on the seatstay sounds like damage.
My chainstay unit cost £100 on crash replacement, worth having a word with Spesh UK to see if they can offer help.