[Closed] Too lazy to build

and this thread has confirmed his suspicions

I hope I'm not included in his suspicions!

But I know local clubs and mtb groups where next to nobody does any trail work

None of these trails are 'illegal' AFAIK, they are in public land in Scotland

"The OP is not from England, and so, your quaint 'bridleways' are of no concern. He's actually pointing out that lots of MTBers are selfish ****, and this thread has confirmed his suspicions. "

I'm sorry but i'm really going to have to take issue with that statement.

I've been riding bikes off road for 30 years plus as have a few of my mates. For years and years we just got on with our thing riding around on bridleways and through private woods that allowed us access. Over the last 10 years or so I've seen a proliferation in trail building around the local woods that usually preceeds the woods becoming full of people pushing bikes uphill, litter, confrontation with other users of the woods and inevitably restricted access.

Just because some of you lot can't ride a bike without some kind of earth bank or wooden structure to launch your gnar off means I'm selfish if I don't join you? The woods were around a long time before your purple shorts and they will be there long after you've gone.

The odd bit of cutback and moving logs is fine and I'm happy to help but you can f'off with your shovels thanks.

Throwing this one out there for a kick 😀 ... remember Supernova? Which is selfish, riding it without digging or digging a kick ass gap in a well established busy trail used by all abilities and expecting everyone to just deal with it?

I'm on the fence a bit here as I see all sides and appreciated the gap and wanted to ride it myself, but also felt it seemed a bit selfish to just stick it where it was. And then would it be right for someone to fill the gap in because they don't like it? Is that selfish?

Just stirring things 😈

"The OP is not from England, and so, your quaint 'bridleways' are of no concern. He's actually pointing out that lots of MTBers are selfish ****, and this thread has confirmed his suspicions. "

I'm sorry but i'm really going to have to take issue with that statement.

I've been riding bikes off road for 30 years plus as have a few of my mates. For years and years we just got on with our thing riding around on bridleways and through private woods that allowed us access. Over the last 10 years or so I've seen a proliferation in trail building around the local woods that usually preceeds the woods becoming full of people pushing bikes uphill, litter, confrontation with other users of the woods and inevitably restricted access.

Just because some of you lot can't ride a bike without some kind of earth bank or wooden structure to launch your gnar off means I'm selfish if I don't join you? The woods were around a long time before your purple shorts and they will be there long after you've gone.

The odd bit of cutback and moving logs is fine and I'm happy to help but you can f'off with your shovels thanks.

I don't build jumps, read my last post. So there are no boggy sections where you ride? I'll need to come and ride there. Please feel free to add your nonsensical prejudices about enduro colours etc, makes you really cool mate.

Oh, and as for litter, XC racers and roadies are by far the worst for this, with their bloody gel packets and burst tubes.

I'm not selfish, I'm the opposite. I care about all the users of the trail. What is a nice jump for one person is a death trap to another rider.

Well I'm with Winston on this now. I too have been riding since well before trail building was around & if you want to break you back fannying around to give yourself something more, well crack on! But If I come across it & ride it don't expect me to 'pop down' a rebuild it. Put it where I can't find it or find somewhere private to do it.

So there are no boggy sections where you ride?

What?? I ride the Dales & North York Moors! Where shall I start the drainage?

Are you nuts?

If there's a boggy section I ride through it. Are you riding a road bike or something?

Not saying people shouldn't put something back into it and yes I wish I did do more, but in most cases outside of trail centres and official builds it's asking people to do something illegal to add to the illegally built trail anyway. Though obviously it's crazy that building may be illegal but riding it may not be.

Why is it crazy? I'm not talking about building kickers, booters, doubles etc, but drainage and sustaining the trail are not 'crazy'.

You lot will never, ever get your access issues changed if you sit on your hands and do bugger all. But that's another argument altogether!.

esselgruntfuttock - Member

I too have been riding since well before trail building was around

Raised eyebrow.

Maybe fair enough Northwind, but in 1990 I cant recall any trailbuilding where I was riding.

They must have just appeared, did you see Paul Daniels and Debbie Magee round every corner?

What is a nice jump for one person is a death trap to another rider.

Proving you can't read, again.

Why is it crazy? I'm it talking about building kickers, booters, doubles etc, but drainage and sustaining the trail are not 'crazy'.

You lot will never, ever get your access issues changed if you sit on your hands and do bugger all. But that's another argument altogether!.

I'm with you with the drainage stuff and subtle maintenance. There are some great trails that don't have obvious big features, have much work on them and yet people think they're just natural trails. If trails in busy public areas were more of this we'd have less of the access issues anyway. It would still be illegal for me to even do drainage work if it's an illegal build anyway. There are enough issues already in places I ride with locals and rangers threatening to get the police in because some badgers have been disturbed etc. I don't want to get a shovel out and then find an angry owner pointing a gun at me.

As for the big jumps build, I'm not knocking them either, but I do have a concern about the level of activity at the moment in busy places used by all abilities, illegally built and the whole thing is going to reach breaking point, likely only on the negative side when it comes to access.

Enough of the "you lot". We're all on the same side. We ride bikes.

I don't build trails but do spend the time now an then to remove fallen tress from the paths that make up my local rides
Does not take much time to drive and walk a bit with an axe/saw to clear things a bits

I don't want to get a shovel out and then find an angry owner pointing a gun at me.

I agree with lots of your post, and orangeboy too, but in reality how often does this ^^^ happen? About as often as the much vaunted 'suing' of riders.

Edit - you lot was meant in terms of the archaic access laws in England and Wales, not people who don't build trails mate.

orangeboy - Member
I don't build trails but do spend the time now an then to remove fallen tress from the paths that make up my local rides

Likewise, though I don't carry a saw etc, but if it's something I can clear by hand or with help, I'll do it. Ditto with litter, though sometimes it just pisses me off so much I feel why should I clear up after others. On that point, jumps spots in some places where kids do the digging, litter everywhere from the kids doing the digging 😥

Edit - you lot was meant in terms of the archaic access laws in England and Wales, not people who don't build trails mate.

Fair point 🙂

Who's selfish now?

I'm not disagreeing with you, pisses me off the amount of red bull style cans that are left at local jump spots, but at least they have the excuse of youth and ignorance, go and follow a sportive, see how many middle agers leave shite after them.

They must have just appeared,

When did they 'just appear' then?
It actually makes no difference to me when they appeared. I don't use them so don't feel any urge/need/want or otherwise to build or maintain trails. I ride what's there & enjoy it, simple. The worse that bridleways get because of wear & erosion just make things more interesting & I wouldn't like to be involved in the sanitisation of some of our ROW.

(NOT that I want to see B/Ways & ROW become impassable I might add, but that's what local authorities & my taxes are for)

When did they 'just appear' then?
It actually makes no difference to me when they appeared. I don't use them so don't feel any urge/need/want or otherwise to build or maintain trails. I ride what's there & enjoy it, simple. The worse that bridleways get because of wear & erosion just make things more interesting & I wouldn't like to be involved in the sanitisation of some of our ROW.

(NOT that I want to see B/Ways & ROW become impassable I might add, but that's what local authorities & my taxes are for)

Ah, the taxes argument. Do you shout this at commuters too?. As I said earlier, your trail structure is pretty irrelevant to the discussion, do catch up. I hope England and Wales eventually get some decent access, but attitudes like will probably stop it. I'm guessing you're over 50?.

tbh I like th look of the silky boy saw..

I've had a few close incidents of broken branches that you only see when they're about to impale you.....

I hope England and Wales eventually get some decent access, but attitudes like will probably stop it. I'm guessing you're over 50?.

The fact that I am over 50 & you actually knew, astounds me. How did you know that?
I'm guessing you're Scottish.

I don't really know what your'e getting at here. Do you expect very offroad cyclist to put in some work on the trails/bridleways/rights of way that they use? Please enlighten me, a long term offroad rights of way user, what you'd like ME to do.

You've wallpapered over your ridiculous taxes argument. If you think you have absolutely nothing to do, and are happy to keep taking, taking, and taking some more, then fair do's, enjoy your riding. I'm out, happy new year, and keep taking. 🙄

esselgruntfuttock- Member

The worse that bridleways get because of wear & erosion just make things more interesting & I wouldn't like to be involved in the sanitisation of some of our ROW.

You do realise that it's often wear and erosion that causes sanitation?

Just to point out, I never wrote that! 😀

You've wallpapered over your ridiculous taxes argument. If you think you have absolutely nothing to do, and are happy to keep taking, taking, and taking some more, then fair do's, enjoy your riding. I'm out, happy new year, and keep taking.

I still don't know what you expect from your everyday user of ROW in England & I only mentioned taxes because that's where ROW maintenance in England is funded from IE local authority (except when private landowners fund maintenance for their own interest, IE shooting & personal access)
& 'taking, taking, and taking some more' What do you want people to do on England? I'm talking bridleways & other ROW open to cyclists, do you expect me to start drainage work on a clarty track used by farmers every day? (as an example)? Honestly, give me an idea of what you'd expect of the average English offroad rider who doesn't use purpose built venues.

Big fat slow ninja edit

boggy and poorly drained bits ftw. they'll erode and make it more interesting. eventually the loggers will come along, f*** it up beyond all recognition anyway, and eventually put gravel down to make it passable again. then it'll bed in and erode again.

trees down? leave them. walkers and bikers will make a new path round it. only in exceptional circumstances have i had to maybe snap a branch off to get over/under/past a fallen tree on a hillside. park rangers will eventually chop it up or drag it to one side.

plenty of fallen trees that have eventually "evolved" in to the trail.

most standing water I've seen is the "manicured" man-made trails. always a puddle before every single roller, jump, double. do they put them there on purpose?

not lazy, just tend not to ride purpose built or illegal/cheeky trails. maps ftw.

Can someone sort that big wheel sucking puddle out under the bridge on New Rd tomorrow morning please.I'm after a Strava PB in the afternoon.Cheers.

Can someone sort that big wheel sucking puddle out under the bridge on New Rd tomorrow morning please.I'm after a Strava PB in the afternoon.Cheers.

I'm on it Nick, always carry a big **** off pump in me Dakine just for these occasions.

You don't have to know how to build trails to help out maintaining them. It's just basic courtesy to do things like pat down the lip of a landing if you've come up short etc.

To think your above doing this is downright rude and arrogant.

Also, I had to laugh at the bloke saying he doesn't ride smooth trails because he has a decent enduro bike.

smooth trails are like bald fannies..

they're for little kids and perverts

It's just basic courtesy to do things like pat down the lip of a landing if you've come up short etc.

When should one do this? Immediately after the event, later that day?

If one is riding with friends does one wait for their friends to jump or fix it first so they have a perfect jump to use too?

As already said, there's an assumption going on here that we all ride dirt jumps.

^^^^ knowing some of the local Scottish posters I'd disagree, we largely ride natural trails in the west of Scotland where many of us do some regular pruning, tidying, drainage works etc to maintain them. We also try to avoid the soggy sensitive bits in wet and poor weather, hence acting sustainably and responsibly. That really just ties in with The Scottish Outdoor Access Code..

Meh. Does it really matter? Something i've read lots of times along the lines of "don't get upset if others don't hold the same beliefs in such high regard, they won't".

People who want to dig will, people who don't want to dig, won't.

If you don't want to dig, fine, just say, no need for excuses including rights, busy, legality, paying etc etc. If you feel morally obliged to help out, you will.

I'm sure everyone deep down would agree the morally right thing to do is contribute if and when they can, can be as simple as litter picking or clearing the branches walkers have put across.

I went though the whole being a trail nazi thing, set of dirt jumps, were my babies, whenever i was not there was getting wound up they were getting littered and trashed, being a bit arsey to people who came and did not want to contribute, ripped the fun out of it. Take a far more relaxed approach now.

The one that still gets my goat, if you can contribute one little thing, that's to not ride the boggy trails, particularly ones which when dry are really good. You're simply destroying them for when it dries up.

"The one that still gets my goat, if you can contribute one little thing, that's to not ride the boggy trails, particularly ones which when dry are really good. You're simply destroying them for when it dries up."

Most sensible thing posted so far

Yes that above about respecting trails

I dont dig but I ride natural so no need.

The problem with MTB is that it falls down the gap between CTC style bridleway letter-writing / hand-wringing midle class angst and the dirt jump "no dig - no ride" suft-spot ethos.

Maintaining a dirt jump spot / mini DH trail can be a lot of work - and it can be ruined in any number of ways - normally outside of the control of the riders. I think the golden age of these kind of spots is on the wane - the teens and twenty-somethings who used to seemingly live in these spots seem to have better things to do nowadays.

So were left in the middle ground - you want to ride some distance on natural singletrack, but trail centres have led you to expect a berm on every corner and a "feature" every 200 yards. Now clearly this isn't going to be viable - you're pretty lucky if the nettles / brambles even get strimmed. In the ideal world everyone would adopt a section of trail and 2-3 times a year take the saw and shovel and do a bit of sensitive tidying all along the route rather than spending a weekend building a set of doubles on a footpath.

But I know local clubs and mtb groups where next to nobody does any trail work

Dan, quite agree. You'll know that at Mugdock, GMBC do regular trail maintainance work, in close liaison with the Park Rangers. The other main club has also helped out with these sessions. Unfortunately there are also many selfish/inconsiderate riders who cause unnecessary trail damage and erosion by then riding unsustainable sections in the wrong weather conditions.

None of these trails are 'illegal' AFAIK, they are in public land in Scotland

Come to think of it I never seen Dan on any of these maintainence days 😉
Also cant help thinking its a wee dig (no pun intended) at us that have been riding Aberfoyle recently 😀 , I would be more than happy to help out at a dig with Dan if I had the time but unfortunately we dont all get weeks off at this time of year, I regularly carry a small saw in my backpack, more so when I ride at mugdock which in last couple of years its not as often as previous years but still prune back some trails when needed.Your work is greatly appreciated though Dan 😉

Junkyard - lazarus
I dont dig but I ride natural so no need.

Bridleways, public footpaths and the like aside, a lot of so called "natural" trails are actually dug by people. Much is subtle and you wouldn't realise that there's been some scrub clearance work, strategically placed debris from branches and bushes to block off eroding lines, berms that you wouldn't realise are berms, drainage, etc.

Depending on location of course. Some areas existing paths are just ridden a lot and bed into a trail but still people clear them at times.

Round my way, there are places like Tunnel Hill and surrounding MoD lands and all the trails there have been created with much effort from volunteers. Many as part of Gorrick & Brass Monkey races. Yet people think they are just natural and have been worn in by people riding them. Been riding some today which were created a month or so back. Before there was nothing there at all, but the magic pixies cleared lines through and now it's a trail but still looks like it's some natural path.

I ride with some of these guys and they do it in their spare time and know what they're doing whereas I would not. They might appreciate volunteers but don't ask for them and no one says "no dig no ride" or expect people to dig.

iainc - Member
None of these trails are 'illegal' AFAIK, they are in public land in Scotland

I'm not certain on land ownership in Scotland but as I understood it, though the land is public access that doesn't make it public owned. Maybe some is, but I was under the impression pretty much every scrap of land in the whole of the UK is effectively privately owned. More so in Scotland, owned by lord this or that (or Scottish equivalent). Even Crown land in England is a private ownership entity effectively run on behalf of the government raising funds to the treasury, and then the Queen has a right to claim the lands back if she wanted. Common lands are generally privately owned or are shared ownership by a local group or council.

Even if you can say "we" own a bit of land because it's in council or state ownership, it's still not legal for anyone to go dig up the land or build on it.

What the "public" attribute gives you is access rights. Different thing.

^^^^

What the "public" attribute gives you is access rights.

a lot of so called "natural" trails are actually dug by people.