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if you're looking at HR though, how do you account for the impact of adrenalin raising your HR at the start?
I disagree. if you know what your threshold HR is, then surely getting up to that as quickly is possible is best?
It's been said above - you actually need to ride to threshold POWER not threshold HR. They are generally proportional, though, but only after a few minutes. When you start your muscles are full of ATP or whatever it is, so you can go tearing off but in no time at all you'll be anaerobic and this causes a lot of fatigue.
I've got a fairly good idea of what my threshold power is (or was) because I use a power meter, and for the first minute or so it feels ridiculously easy. But it's well worth sticking to it!
what if you can't measure power?
what if you can't measure power?
Buy a power meter. Spend money on this before a pointy hat or new wheels. You will use it all the time, not just for racing, and it should make a big difference to how you train and how effective that training is.
HR is useless for pacing the first few minutes of a TT, ignore it and as said above, ride at what feels 'a bit too easy'. It'll soon become hard.
Without a PM or an innate sense of pacing (which you can learn, and the top TTers always had in the days before PMs) then it's very easy to get it wrong.
I helped a clubmate who was after advice once and after a chat I thought like it sounded as if he was starting too fast.
I leant him a PM disc wheel and we went off to a TT. I covered up the display and asked to ride as normal (pacing to HR and RPE). When we looked at the data he'd hit 420W average for the first 5 minutes but was crawling across the line at barely 200W. His HR was largely a flat line after 4 minutes, and he reckoned it felt just as 'hard' all the way round.
This is a 20-min '10' man and open event winner, not some chopper in a club event. So anyone can get it wrong, it's certainly worth looking at.
what if you can't measure power?
Experience and careful experimentation is your only option then.
I don't want to spend money on a power meter.
I've only done one 10TT and I know I went off too hard as I had to ease off between 3 and 6 miles to recover a bit. Having said that there was only 10s difference between my slowest and fastest miles.
I'm doing the same TT tonight so I will try and measuring my start a bit better - it doesn't help that the start is downhill.
I'm also experimenting with aero bars and a taped up pisspot lid instead of a road helmet...
Interesting thread this - thanks for the input.
I don't want to spend money on a power meter.
May be worth having a look at a [url= http://www.powertap.com/collections/powercal ]PowerCal[/url]. Uses some fancy algorithms to work out power from HR (rate of change etc.) I've just picked one up as I needed a new HR strap anyway, it wasn't much more cash (was 70 quid I think), and I was just curious and thought it may come in handy. The review over at [url= http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2012/11/cycleops-powercal-in-depth-review.html ]dcrainmaker[/url] was ok too. May work quite well for activities like a TT that doesn't involve sharp variances in power. I am a bit sceptical but shall be comparing the data to my PM over the next few weeks and see how it does.
I'd still consider a PM though. Maybe check out [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/which-power-meter-stages-or-power2max ]this thread[/url]. They can be had for not much more than 500 quid.
Some bargain powertaps on ebay. Mostly in the US though, for under £200.
You could always [url= http://http://mikesbikeshop.co.uk/DDT_ShowEntry_simple1.asp?GalleryName=Main_News&EntryID=959&ImageSeqNo=1 ]rent a powermeter[/url]?
Renting is a good bet, though I ended up renting mine for close to a couple of years. Thankfully it was through the LBS and they agreed to waive the rental fee if I agreed to buy one, despite there only being a few quid difference!
Sorry for the amateur question - but what clipons are worth a look?
I'm aiming to get the money together for a power meter by sept.
well I measured my HR and built it gradually but I still think I went off too fast with my mile times steadily dropping until mile 7 when they got quicker again.
only 10 seconds between fastest and slowest mile though so pretty consistent (the course is a mile loop) apart from the last lap which was beasted 8 seconds quicker than the the next quickest.
pointy hat next.
[quote=mrblobby ]it did wear down my gloves a bit
gloves in a TT? 😯
Special aero gloves obviously 🙂
I've got one more 10 mile TT on a particular course and I've got 12 days to train for it.
What's the best training I can do between now and then?
12 days?
Stick your feet up and rest, way too late for training, anything you do now with just leave you more tired!
I'd argue that any training up to 10 days to go gives benefit, and a week is plenty of time to get over being tired, so he's got a couple of days to train real hard. Then a structured taper with some low volume speed sessions also helps.
Stick your feet up and rest, way too late for training, anything you do now with just leave you more tired!
+1
If anyone wants to try the angry sperm helmet then I've got a medium Bell Meteor in silver, £15 plus postage or collect from me near Newport. The front edges where the ear flaps seam are split but it makes no difference to the helmet fit/safety.
So doing 200 miles 3 days beforehand isn't a good idea?
Shedbrewed - Could you send some pics of your helmet? Im only in Newport so happy to collect. Email in profile
rocco YGM
Well I did my first ever TT today - a 10. I borrowed some vision mini tt bars. I went flat out like everyone said and I'd toasted my quads inside the first mile, held on to the half way point / roundabout and recovered coming back pretty hard. Couldn't hold the aero position as I was resting just below the wrists so proper bars the next step. Also finished with quite a bit in the tank as had the garmin on HR and time rather than Distance and the finish line came up faster than I thought. Somehow there was a headwind out and back... 26:53 so I think that is an okay time.
Lessons learnt and now looking for some kit 🙂 I'll start my own thread 😛
If you don't vomit when you cross the line you haven't gone hard enough 😉
DT78, was that the Sotonia P140 King Sombourne course? It's quite a draggy course with a horrible return leg.
Sotonia yes - down the A3057 to Romsey from Compton manor, to the roundabout and back. Head wind on 1st leg, and somehow the supposed tail wind on the way back also felt like a head wind!!!
Fastest on the day was 23. My mate who I'm of similar fitness to (though he used to do a lot of TTs) was 90 seconds faster so I reckon with a few simple changes I can make a lot of difference.
From speaking to an experienced chap it was probably a warm up issue - I pootled there (15 miles) and then signed on / sat waiting for my turn for 45mins. Didn't do anything to get my heart rate up / legs running smoothly so a ballistic sprint from the start hurt. It was quad pain that slowed me down rather than feeling sick or not getting oxygen in if that makes sense. I rode the 15 miles back home and set several prs so had plenty left in the tank.
Warm up is key to any TT event. I generally do a 30 - 45 minute progressive warm up and aim to arrive at the start line with less than 5 minutes to go.
Didn't do anything to get my heart rate up / legs running smoothly so a ballistic sprint from the start hurt.
Bad idea on that course as you found out last night. Although a downhill start makes it a bit easier, it's the looooong flat sections that will catch you out. 😀
Fastest on the day was 23.
I did the same event last year and won it with a 22.49. 😀 Should have been faster but like you, I miss judged the finish line. It comes up quicker than you think!
Thats a rapid time. Presumably on a tt bike with all the gear...! I asked people for advice and they said pedal like buggery. No one mentioned the warmup or anything....which i have found out the painful way is important. I hit 39.8mph by the end of the ramp looking at the stats...not too shabby. Shame i couldnt hold on
Have ridden two 10's in the past week; a sporting open and a 10.4 mile 11 laps of Hillingdon. Rode on HR-estimated power trying to maintain 10-second averaged 280 Watts on the PowerCal. Results for Hillingdon are [url= http://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/543091392 ]here[/url] if anyone is interested. I think the Powercal gave reasonable results for a course I know well. This ride was the equivalent of being off the front of a 4th cat race. Putting out higher power that 280W is probably related to my position (it was a TT bike). I didn't go off all out.
For £70, it provides more useful data than just HR and certainly changes with effort, even when HR looks locked in at "I'm dying" levels. I like it and think it is well-suited to constant efforts like TT'ing.
I like it and think it is well-suited to constant efforts like TT'ing.
Makes sense that it is most relevant for 'steady state' stuff like TTs. Interesting the spike right at the beginning, which doesn't correlate to spikes in HR (unlike the others - which I assume are anomalous?).
Spike at beginning is me starting off from rest up a modest incline. A relatively big effort in terms of HR acceleration will show as a high power output (it wasn't really that high!). When at steady-state it tended to move from about 240-300W, with increases when I worked harder. Not as bad as one might think. I was riding on a 10 second averaging, so it will start high and decline.
Recall Power = f(HR) + f'(dHR/dt)
Starting a TT with a higher HR than I did after warming up harder would probably give an even more accurate reading - peak power would be lower at the start and still approach steady-state faster than HR does.
NP compares well in races to my Stages, but I seldom look at Power when racing, just confirmation that I worked hard.
Done a few tens this year, for the first time - surprisingly enjoyable in retrospect. Some helpful stuff on this thread.
The whole measuring your effort thing I've found really challenging. Each one I've done has felt like a very hard effort, but never a completely empty yourself, vomit on the bars affair. Seems like you need to get quite strong and focussed to attain this state - although I guess really knowing the course also helps.
A relatively big effort in terms of HR acceleration will show as a high power output
Neat.
Been using the PowerCal for a couple of weeks now. I've got the Garmin to give me 30 second averages from it. Going by PE (I've done a lot of riding with a PM so have a good idea of watts for a given PE) I reckon it's reading a little low (maybe 10-20 watts) but it's not bad at all on a training rides, seems to track efforts reasonably well, and gives a good approximation of NP and TSS. I've not ridden on the road with it and a PM to compare data though. Happy with it so far for a relatively inexpensive purchase.
Which sums up my experience. I've bought an extra one to pass around the club, just to give a flavour of power measurement.
Neat.
It is, isn't it. I did some regressions of HR and delta HR/delta TIME to try and reverse engineer their algorithm. I also added speed as an additional covariate to try and improve accuracy. Garmin could easily license the algorithm.
I also added speed as an additional covariate to try and improve accuracy. Garmin could easily license the algorithm.
Get in touch with them 🙂 I think if you included rates of change of speed and possibly cadence then you could get a better approximation (even altitude if the barometer is good enough.) They may not be so keen though seeing as it's not one of their products.