[Closed] This really makes you want to wear a lid

You might get 70-odd virgins to have a pop at etc etc

Aye, but as Jo Caulfield put it, knowing my luck it wouldn't be 70 pliable nubile virgins, it'd be 70 maiden aunts on their zimmer frames.

Or 70 TJ's talking non stop about bike helmets

You simply do not know what the outcome would be otherwise - and it also clearly demonstrates the limitations of helmets - he still has a major head injury.

We all know the data re usage and participation and yadda yadda you will list but this would be about as clear cut a case for helmet usage protecting you as you will ever get in the real world.

EDIT:

several different studies have show that as helmet wearing rates increase across whole populations the head injury rate does not fall.

Junkyard - sorry squire but you do not know

It saved his life

You do not know it would be worse without one. too many variables.

Of course it shows the limitations - he was left with a major head injury. helmets to not prevent injury - they mitigate some

seen the vid before.
I probably wear a lid for about 5% of the riding I do and watching that video hasn't changed that.

Claiming that wearing a helmet makes the injury worse in 30% of accidents sounds like the kind of stuff a Flat Earth Believer/Creationist would come up with.

Not really. I'd actually say that promoting helmet use with the abscence of any hard research (based on simple belief that they must make things better) is far more flat earth.

The 30% figure is the kind of stuff that research might come up with. Wikipedia gives -

It has been suggested that the major causes of permanent intellectual disablement and death after head injury may be torsional forces leading to diffuse axonal injury (DAI), a form of injury which usual helmets cannot mitigate and may make worse.[68] Helmets may increase the torsional forces by increasing the distance from the centre of the spine to the outside of the helmet, compared to the distance to the scalp without a helmet: "Bicycle helmet crash simulation experiments carried out as part of this project indicated very high rotational accelerations for a fall over the handlebars at 45 km/h. The rotational accelerations were found to be 30 percent higher than those found in similar tests using a full face polymer motorcycle helmet."[69] A 1991 study by Hodgson, in which bicycle helmets were tested for ease of skidding, found that adding facial protection to a standard bicycle helmet (in effect making the helmet full-face) brought the benefit of reduced twisting forces on the brain.

I always wear a helmet off-road, wear one on my commute, I was wearing one when I was hit behind by a bus and knocked unconscious. Did it help? Who knows for sure.

I rarely wear a helmet when riding my Brompton and not wearing cycle kit or helmet may be safer in town - http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/articles/archive/overtaking110906.html

I struggle to believe that a helmet makes a large difference if you're hit from behind by a wing mirror at 60mph - it's so far outside the range of impacts they're designed to cope with.

Of course not using TJ standards but using this same standard I dont know the parachute saved the life of the person who jumped out of a plane - it just lessened the impact a bit

helmets to not prevent injury - they mitigate some

TandemJeremy - Member

DenDennis - Wrong

several different studies have show that as helmet wearing rates increase across whole populations the head injury rate does not fall.

Thats double the number of folk wearing helmets, no fall in head injuries once all other factors are eliminated

sorry TJ, i know you're a bright bloke and all that, but that logic does not follow, (unless all of the population has been surveyed for all crashes)

almost ALL of the failures are counted.
How would ALL (or any) instances of a helmet working go into such a survey? are there ctc people hiding out on the trails with clipboards?

You do not know it would be worse without one. too many variables.

Not many variables in getting a wing mirror to hit off the back of someone's head - that'd be an easy experiment to setup.

I probably wear a lid for about 5% of the riding I do and watching that video hasn't changed that.

that's cause 95% of you riding is going to/from school with a bunch of nippers...... and you want to look cool 😉

I struggle to believe that a helmet makes a large difference if you're hit from behind by a wing mirror at 60mph

no ones says it made a large difference, just enough to turn (almost certain [just to stop TJ being a nob again]) death into brain damage

DenDenis - follow the links.

What the studies look at is the whole population of cyclists. The number of miles cycled , the rate of helmet wearing and the number of head injuries.

As helmet wearing rates increased - in some cases more than doubled there was no reduction in head injuries per mile cycled.

Jeezuz - That Batman photo really works!

Question - why the bloody hell would you ride a bike fast and not wear a helmet?

[b]fascinating but what this does not say is that wearing a helmet does not prevent injury if you crash[/b]

again [as not all studies show the same thing]you are cherry picking your data - I will give you the benefit and assume you missed my edit.

perhaps those people wearing helmets were really rubbish cyclists and they caused crashes?
I assume even you are not going to claim helmets cause you to crash are you.
Dont forget those who wear a helmet and are uninjured forget to go to casuality to let them know so they can be in the studies you link to.

No comment on parachutes then?

To coin a phrase...
Helmet laws:...Let Those Who Ride Decide......

I have no idea if this is relevant to the topic as I cba to read more than the first few posts,but have always like this phrase.... 🙂

As helmet wearing rates increased - in some cases more than doubled there was no reduction in head injuries per mile cycled. ...

10 people cycling, 5 wearing helmets. 1 has crash where helmet does nothing.
OK.

10 people cycling, 10 wearing helmets. 1 has crash where helmet does nothing.

doubling the number of helmets has not helped that one person.
why would it? same per mile cycled all round.

[whisper it] what if 9 of those 10 had 'minor bumps' but didnt report them?

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4689

Cracknell would probably have been better off not doing a ridiculous unnecessary 'challenge' that involved lots of physical exercise and lots of [u]sleep deprivation[/u].

I'd suggest sacrificing a helmet and instead riding when you are actually aware of the truck roaring up behind you at 60mph on a lonely midnight road.

In all the fuss about whether his helmet saved his life, the fact that he wasn't riding sensibly seems to have been lost.

You simply do not know what the outcome would be otherwise

That really sounds like straw clutching. Bloke smacks his head on the pavement, and you say 'well.. it MIGHT've been better without a helmet....' Ok.. well make sure you factor in all those times where people are knocked off their bikes because their helmet caught on a branch that they'd otherwise have cleared..

And really - what are we suppsoed to do? Stop before an accident, assess the accident we're about to have and decide whether or not to remove our helmets?

What I am saying is that it's a bit of a non-argument. There might well be cases where it doesn't help, but unless you can show that OVERALL you are better off without (ie in the statistical majority of likely situations) then I'll keep mine on and so should the rest of us.

Den - read the links!

Its really very simple. Helmet evangelists claim that helmets prevent a large % of head injuries. if this was so when helmet wearing rates doubled then head injuries should reduce. In actual fact head injury rates per mile cycled remain the same even when helmet wearing is doubled. thus there is no protective effect.

Why is a different debate.

I do enjoy these debates and can see exactly where TJ is coming from. Maybe we should collective ask the Mythbusters to do some research? 🙂

Some anecdotal evidence here, not sure what it says really though. My mum fell of her road bike last year and knocked her self out. She was wearing a helmet. She had also stopped breathing. My Dad and I had to clear her airways which we partially blocked. Initially we could couldnt get her mouth open because her helmet strap had ridden up her chin slightly and was clamping her mouth shut. Had we not been there she may of died from not being able to clear her own airways through coughing etc as her mouth was strapped shut. If she hadnt of had the helmet she may of had a worse head injury but she would of been able to breath. Interesting, eh?

The argument is difficult because [i]until someone does a study where people undertaking different types of cycling are randomly allocated helmet or no-helmet whatever their own wishes/intentions are, we will not have cohorts of people with matched demographics and matched attitudes that we can compare.[/i] And we are not going to get those studies. The studies of individual helmet usage will be flawed in having choice and attitude as confounding variables. The studies of whole populations and effects of legislation lump too many different contexts together.

Until then some of the leaps that some people sometimes take - generalising death rates from data mainly about road cycling where death may often be by mechanisms (eg squished by a Lorry - or very high speed impact) that no cycle helmet will ever mitigate - to other contexts (MTBing) is illogical.

Equally illogical is the frequent quoting of a study which says cars go closer to people with helmets, when that study was basically the observations of behaviour towards one single cyclist, sometimes wearing a womans wig... sometimes not... sometimes wearing a helmet... sometimes not...

In skiing - my other sport - we have the same issues. But where we are is:
1) Fatal head injury is so rare, that it is unlikely that any study will ever have the statistical power to show a death rate difference in Helmet wearers.
2) But we do now know that significant head injury is reduced in helmet wearers, that there is no increase in neck injury, and no evidence of "adaptive behaviour" (eg taking more risks because of the lids).

I suspect that for much MTBing - with rocks and trees in proximity and relatively moderate speeds, a properly conducted randomised trial would show a significant reduction in head injury severity, as has now been shown in skiers and boarders.

For pootling along a canal path (low risk) or cycling on the road where lots of things you hit will squish you like a bug, there may indeed be no point.

It does remain a personal choice though. And my personal choice is not to ride in the woods with anyone with no lid.

For pootling along a canal path (low risk) or cycling on the road where lots of things you hit will squish you like a bug, there may indeed be no point.

Is the point!

I wear one sometimes and not other = depending what I am doing.

When I wear one I wear it fastened and fitted properly - unlike the vast majority of cyclists I see wearing helmets. even at Glentress I reckon its a minority who wear the helmets properly

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Helmet evangelists

Wearing a cycle helmet [b]may[/b] increase your risk of a collision, because drivers leave less of a gap when overtaking cyclists with helmets than those without, according to recent research.

Using HEAT (Health Economic Assessment Tool) for cycling, as published by the WHO, and the Cycle Safety Study's estimate (which CTC disputes) of between 10 -16% of fatal injuries prevented by helmets,

Double post

TandemJeremy - Member

When I wear one I wear it fastened and fitted properly - unlike the vast majority of cyclists I see wearing helmets. even at Glentress I reckon its a minority who wear the helmets properly

If you mean that the straps look loose when they aren't riding their bike (which you mentioned in a previous helmet debate), that doesn't mean that the helmet doesn't fit properly.

My strap tends to become tight only when I assume a bike riding position - hunched forward, jaw loose to suck in all that O2, neck extended, etc. If it was tight when I was off the bike, I wouldn't be able to breathe properly when riding.

Of course if you are looking at riders' helmets when they are actually riding, then that's just a little weird! 🙂

Junkyard - Member
Wearing a cycle helmet may increase your risk of a collision, because drivers leave less of a gap when overtaking cyclists with helmets than those without, according to recent research.

In some research where no one was hit. It is conclusive of nothing and needs to be done in areas outside of Bath as well- unless of course you are suggesting we all move to Bath and cycle with a blonde wig to get a few more inches of clearance- I bet it is not matched for location or time of day,vehicle, driver age etc.

My favourite piece of poor research! 🙄

Strangely enough, when a man rides along wearing a blonde wig, people gave him more room. I could have told him that would happen for free.

Stoatsbrother - Member
For pootling along a canal path (low risk) or cycling on the road where lots of things you hit will squish you like a bug, there may indeed be no point

Friend of my other half fell off her bike while cycling through the village. There were no vehicles involved, I don't know the exact details of the fall, but she hit her head and was knocked out. She wasn't wearing a helmet & when she came round, found herself blind in one eye. This was several months ago, the doctors don't know exactly why she has lost sight in that eye, but it doesn't look like it's returning anytime soon.

Would a helmet have stopped her losing her sight? Who knows. I'd rather not take the chance.

A few months ago I had a stupid crash on the road & hit my head hard. I was OK (once I'd gathered my thoughts) & cycled home. My helmet had split up the middle of it and was wrecked.
It takes quite a lot of energy to split a helmet. I'm glad that energy went into my helmet & not into my skull.

Oh, and if i didn't wear a helmet where would my spokeshirts light go!?

I can't believe people still trot out that: "head injuries rates don't fall when helmet use goes up" statistic.

I've broken 3 lids. In each case, my head was fine. In each case I am certain I would have sustained a head injury without one.

The only guy I know who refuses to wear one smacked his head on the ground and was carted off in an ambulance last year.

I still think that helmet use should be voluntary but non wearers need to get real - it IS self evidently more dangerous not to wear one and furthermore, if you do crash, the people you are riding with are the ones that have to pick up the pieces!

idlejon - thats a helmet that is not fitted properly you are describing. I think from observation eh majority of folk have their helmets far too loose. My helmets strap is tight when stood up and does not get any tighter in a riding position.

Junkyard - parachutes are not a reasonable comparator. I am not referring to you as a helmet evangalist but the hysterical fringe of people who make these massive inflated claims and who want to penalise all people who do not wear them

I still think that helmet use should be voluntary but non wearers need to get real - it IS self evidently more dangerous not to wear one

Shame the actual evidence does not back that up.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

TandemJeremy - Member
idlejon - thats a helmet that is not fitted properly you are describing. I think from observation eh majority of folk have their helmets far too loose. My helmets strap is tight when stood up and does not get any tighter in a riding position.

Nope. My helmets fit when I'm riding because the position of my head is different when I'm riding. I'm surprised that yours doesn't get any tighter - do you cycle with your head in the same position as when you are sitting? Of course when I say looser/tighter, I'm not talking about huge loops hanging below chins...

[b]stumpy01[/b] - fair points - and I wear a helmet for everything. But anecdote isn't proof. There may be - in a road context - negative safety things about helmet wearing or drivers attitudes to helmet wearers which may balance the obvious advantages. I could give you tons of examples in medicine where the obviously intuitively safer/correct option was actually wrong...

[b]jimification[/b] - I was wearing a helmet which I broke, was knocked unconscious and was carted off to hospital and scanned after a fall at Swinley a few months back. Do I blame the helmet, say it saved me, or say it did not help? I prefer to think it saved me - but I don't [i]know[/i]. As I said above - we know that skiing helmets mitigate severity of head injury - we also know motorcycle helmets reduce death rate. We don't actually know this properly for cycle helmets, I personally suspect it does for MTBing in woods. But the "self-evident" is often wrong

And that statistic someone else happened to trot out is part of the current state of knowledge.

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dratted double post

+1 jivehoneyjive
I'd venture that 30% of people I see wearing helmets don't have them fitted/placed right, i.e. tilted way back on their head with their forehead exposed or, in the case of a guy I saw last weekend, riding along with the helmet unbuckled.
If there were a way to factor in data on ill-fitted/improperly worn helmets into the number of injuries excacerbated by wearing a helmet, might present completely different stats.

Few years ago I came on a scene where a woman who crashed while not wearing a helmet--just a simple sideways fall going around a tight turn and she smacked the side of her head on a rock, caving in her skull above her ear. Not a pretty sight--she ended up partially paralyzed and lost ability to speak---with a helmet it would have likely not resulted in any injury. Got my attention---I won't even ride around a neighborhood street without a helmet.

if the chinstrap is in the right place and the helmet is in the right position then the strap tightness will not alter significantly in different head positions. I suggest your chinstrap is too far forward

For me it's not necessarily about whether helmets would help in some circumstances, it's whether everyone should wear them at all times in case those circumstances come about. For me it's not really clear that [i]in general[/i] that's much more likely for cycling than it is for any number of other things where wearing a lid would appear laughable.

I still think that helmet use should be voluntary but non wearers need to get real - it IS self evidently more dangerous not to wear one
Shame the actual evidence does not back that up.

Most can see points 1 and 2 and weight accordingly. TJ can see point 2 and every accident in point 1 cannot be proved to have been helped[ reduced injury] by a helmet

The other point is the relative risk Junkyard. risks are low. Millions to one. Drinking helmets would prevent more head injuries as would driving helmets

On your third point junkyard

In short, we estimate that a law making helmets compulsory for cyclists may result in an overall increase in 253 premature deaths (265 more from reduced cycling, 12 fewer from the reduced pool of cyclists receiving fatal head injuries), with the overall costs of such a law between £304-415 million per year. In addition, there would be a one-off cost to the remaining cyclists of £180 million to equip them with helmets, plus replacement costs. A similar figure, of $400 million was estimated by de Jong (see right) for the costs of helmet compulsion in the UK.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=5339

Friend of my other half fell off her bike while cycling through the village. There were no vehicles involved, I don't know the exact details of the fall, but she hit her head and was knocked out. She wasn't wearing a helmet & when she came round, found herself blind in one eye. This was several months ago, the doctors don't know exactly why she has lost sight in that eye, but it doesn't look like it's returning anytime soon.

Would a helmet have stopped her losing her sight? Who knows. I'd rather not take the chance.

That's very unfortunate, but it's not really evidence of anything. I knew a kid at school we got hit by a car while walking on the pavement. He had some pretty serious problems for a while (including tourettes) but eventually got over it.

Wearing a helmet probably would have helped him a lot. But I don't think many people would start wearing a helmet for walking to the shops because they'd rather not take the chance.

I'm sure lots of people on here could come up with anecdotes about people getting head injuries doing all sorts of things. For cyling to be a special case I think it needs to be shown that it IS a special case, and AFAIK that hasn't happened.