[Closed] There were no girls riding bikes where I grew up

Could part of it be that if I had a 14 year old boy I’d be happy for him to go off and ride in the woods with his friends, but my 14 year old daughter really only rides with me. I wouldn’t be comfortable with her going that far on her own. Actually I don’t think my daughter would feel safe going to woods without me. Possibly that’s something I’ve influenced, not sure.
When I boy I was also allowed to go and play in the woods on my bmx with my mates.

But, well done Weeksy, that’s a superb display of misogyny right there. Maybe they just don’t like it? Maybe with attitudes like that, it’s not a surprise that it may take more time to demonstrate that cycling is for whomever wants to participate.

It's not though, is it. In the mad rush to push the idea that genders are no longer applicable and everyone is the same, the loonier end of the gender brigade just daren't accept that little boys and girls often like different things.
Not always, that's also nonsense, and some of it is societal norms as they grow up, but the mass of male kids and female kids have a natural urge towards different activities.
IT's just the way it is, no agenda.

most sports and youth groups like Scouts struggle to retain kids that age as other priorities and distractions come along.

Hormones do strange things to the youth (having watched a couple of generations as a South Leader). Then there are other past times that come along that are more fun and their own motorised transport (possibly the biggest influencer at 16/17).

I was only allowed to play out on my bike as a kid. Mind you, we did grow up next to Broadmoor so maybe our parents thought speed might be our friend if there was an escape.

Could part of it be that if I had a 14 year old boy I’d be happy for him to go off and ride in the woods with his friends, but my 14 year old daughter really only rides with me. I wouldn’t be comfortable with her going that far on her own. Actually I don’t think my daughter would feel safe going to woods without me. Possibly that’s something I’ve influenced, not sure.
When I boy I was also allowed to go and play in the woods on my bmx with my mates.

Last year a friends 17 year old daughter did a three night, 120 mile solo bike touring trip. I was a bit surprised, I'll be honest, but I'd have no problem with my lad who's the same age doing it, so I think it's about planning, training and parental confidence as much as safety.

Subject to Covid restrictions, after her A levels she's got a route round the country planned that will take her to every national park on her own. Though I think my mate is hoping to get a few days away with her for his own touring fun.

People have a very strong emotional bond with their horse which can’t be equated to having a bicycle and totally different things are at play between having a horse and riding a bike

Just got back from a ride in the Dales, on the trails between Threshfield, Malham Tarn and Arncliffe. Met five other riders - of the seven out, that's including my wife and I, four were women.

We're doing a lot of thinking and actioning at work around being outdoors and minority groups.

I do think mountain biking has an issue, no different to most other outdoor adventure sports.

We've still mainly got products designed by men, logo'd up by men, presented in a set of photos taken by men, with marketing wording by men, bought in shops run by men, ridden by groups of men, from clubs dominated by men, on trails built by men, discussed on a forum by men (etc).

Replace 'men' with 'white', 'affluent', 'hetrosexual' and more.

Such a dominance has an impact - and not to the benefit of anyone outside of the male, white, affluent and mobile MTB scene.

Is there more ‘inertia’ in cycling participation?

As compared to running was the comment.
My view is influenced by my partner taking up road biking and seeing how confident she has become. I think a lot of boys may well have been shown how to fix punctures etc as kids so are more confident. Even now worry about dealing with mechanicals is her biggest issue and it's why she likes riding with a club, they are trying to increase the women members and holding basic bike maintenance courses. There is no reason why anyone can't fix a puncture or mend a chain some are just less likely to have been shown.

This play she's doing might help a few understand!!

https://whatsonreading.com/on-track

I've got two young daughters, when we're out the youngest often has strangers tell her she's pretty, the eldest that she has lovely hair, never the other way round. They never have strangers tell them they are strong or brave or 'soldiers' so guess what they value. Same with TV programs and school, as the comment above there are societal norms that will take several generations to ease off. On the plus side there are some great riders making great content, Vero makes bikes look fun and that will do more good than me worrying about why the heroine in their favourite programme has to dress and look like that.

On the other side of the coin, wild/open water swimming seems to be a predominantly female activity.

This could be because it's becoming popular relatively recently and so doesn't have baggage associated with it.

In the mad rush to push the idea that genders are no longer applicable and everyone is the same

I think you've missed the point. We're trying to underline that everyone is in fact different, rather than the same as everyone else with the same gender/race/sexual preference etc.

Of course not everyone wants to ride, and it may well be the case that more men are predisposed to enjoy cycling.

But the key point is that we cannot assume that any given woman wouldn't want to ride. Or that latent women cyclists dont need encouragement just like latent men or whoever else.

What a fantastic video, I really enjoyed that.

They just look like they're havingfun in tshirts and shorts.

Aka "dicking about" i think mountainbiking in general would attract more people of any type of people actually looked like they were just having fun. A quick spin round glentress carpark looks like receday sometimes, all the gear,serious faces, planning.

What a great video. What struck me was the lack of MTB specific clothing/padding/shoes etc. and it looked so simple and so much fun. Just like when i first rode as a kid just messing around in the woods. the riding was awesome too.

There was me thinking FOD had done something right as when we were there earlier this week it was a pleasant surprise just how many woman and girls were riding. The ratio was much higher than we have round in other trail centres

We live here & would agree, there is actually quite a strong ladies scene of locals, and a chunk of them are not what I would even class as hobby bikers, they are pinners 🙂

Relatively, it's still not many, but they do push quite hard round here to be inclusive and encourage participation.

Although at weekends when the out of towners/punters descend on the cycle centre it's a bit of a bro fest.

Great video that. I see a lot of girls round here on step-thu bikes, not sure if they quite enjoy speed as much as the three in the video. Also, lately pairs of women on gravel bikes seems to be a thing. Pretty cool to see.
Anyone notice the film credits.. all men. Where are the women in "extreme sport" film making?? Makes you think.

True – does that mean young boys might be put off it, or not have it appeal, for that same reason – that they’re given the impression that it’s something girls do?

Still think horse riding is a bad comparison as there seems to be an attraction to the horse involved for whatever reason.
Although saying that, maybe men have an attraction to the bicycle (wheels, gears, carbon etc,.) that isn't their for women (nature or nurture, who knows) as it seems clear by number of women runners, as previously mentioned, that it is the method of exercise here.

What struck me was the lack of MTB specific clothing/padding/shoes etc

They also ate mud [i]in the video[/i]. If you catch my drift (no pun intended)

A quick spin round glentress carpark looks like receday sometimes, all the gear,serious faces, planning.

Agree, although Glentress top car park seems to have a great mix of all ages and sexes when I've been there. I've always enjoyed the fact that whole families seem to go there and find something to love.

Anyone notice the film credits.. all men. Where are the women in “extreme sport” film making?? Makes you think.

Women don't do all that techy stuff.....

I'm sure a great number are put off by being dragged round a trail centre on a bso weighing 20kg whilst their boyfriend is on 2 grands worth of bike. That's certainly a situation I've seen played out a number of times over the years.

The comparison with ow swimming is interesting. I did a lot last year due to pool closures and women were always in the majority. This is despite the fact that there are barriers that might be reasonably expected to impact women more than men e.g. lack of toilets and changing facilities.

Don't they just wee in the water like everyone else?

Don’t they just wee in the water like everyone else?

Have a little think about what women might need to use bathroom facilities for that would never be an issue for men

Is it to do their hair and makeup?

I’m sure a great number are put off by being dragged round a trail centre on a bso weighing 20kg whilst their boyfriend is on 2 grands worth of bike. That’s certainly a situation I’ve seen played out a number of times over the years.

That’s sexism, right there. Ascribing characteristics for preferences to half the world.

Ever wonder why they might not enjoy it? The adrenaline argument is bollocks because there’s far more to cycling than that.

Nope it's just what people have chosen to do.
You can hardly argue the UK doesn't have any female role models for female DH... (Tracey included) but of people don't find spending x months a year in physio then that's up to them.

I'm was just (as in 20m mins ago) chatting with a mate (female in her 50's) who just got her fibia and tibia pinned after breaking them last weekend. She was messaging me from post op.

Haha got oramorph in hospital but not sure how much that helped , the nurses would come around and say oramorph....ummm yes please . Not got anything better than co codimol to take home though. No not as bad as first thought. They guesstimate I will be back cycling in 4 months , they don't know me so hopefully sooner. High impact sports will take longer so cross fit and running hard to say for sure.

I was encouraging her by linking to my son's Aunt who got rebuilt with pins from the waist down a month or so ago after an avalanche .. this is her.

https://www.today.com/video/dramatic-video-shows-helicopter-rescue-of-5-buried-in-poland-avalanche-1435142211979

she lost the end of her finger last year... and was back on a bike in 2 weeks..
She's now pushing to be back on a bike ....

Her SISTER (brought up in the same house) however wouldn't wander off concrete... in a million years she wouldn't do the walks I did with my 82yr old mum last week... nor would their brother but mum and dad (sons grandparents would)

If someone of any gender doesn't like this then we shouldn't be trying to push them into something they don't enjoy. I find road very scary and totally lacking in joy... as does my 11yr old son... I don't see how that would specifically change if it was an 11yr old daughter...
Meetup before last we rode with 2 teenage girls, 2 dads and 12 mum ... and my lad was the only boy.. then 2 days later were riding with 1 boy + mum + dad (unfortunatly mum is the above so off a bike for a few weeks)

most sports and youth groups like Scouts struggle to retain kids that age as other priorities and distractions come along.

there is a transition in all these activities where it changes from "group childcare for anyone vaguely interested and competent" one night a week to the expectation that any given activity requires multiple weeknights, most weekends, and possibly some independent/homework aspect too. They have to pick one or two things to stick with.

Anyone notice the film credits.. all men. Where are the women in “extreme sport” film making?? Makes you think.

One of my ex's does this specifically. Anything extreme, especially if it involves climbing she's at it like a magnet.

If you watched life on earth you'll have seen her ... and if you saw any filmed from the most dangerous possible location that'd likely be her.

Up until the point that we spawned offspring my wife rode with our group most weekends and wasn’t the only female in the group. She was on the worst bike, but so was I, as money was tight and we had identical Saracen rigid steel MTBs and it wasn’t until she mostly stopped that I started spending more on my bikes. I wouldn’t dream of dragging her out now on a BSO while I’m rocking £5k of eGnarr so I’d stump up for a hire ebike if she wanted to ride.

there is a transition in all these activities where it changes from “group childcare for anyone vaguely interested and competent” one night a week to the expectation that any given activity requires multiple weeknights, most weekends, and possibly some independent/homework aspect too. They have to pick one or two things to stick with.

Very true, having been through it with our kids

there is a transition in all these activities where it changes from “group childcare for anyone vaguely interested and competent” one night a week to the expectation that any given activity requires multiple weeknights, most weekends, and possibly some independent/homework aspect too. They have to pick one or two things to stick with.

From when/where I grew up the difference is that today there is more of an expectation of organised activity. I was amused the other day to see a post by a much younger than me mum saying "I suppose kids today don't need as much organised activity".

Makes me think perhaps we are on a cycle ??? (pun intended)

We just had a week in N. Yorks where the kids (M/F) just went Enid Blighton/Arthur Ransome for a week. They came back wet from swimming in the river and full of mud every day.

Nope it’s just what people have chosen to do.

But why?

There are some people who will always do a particular thing because they are totally driven and single minded. There are others who will never do the thing, because they genuinely hate it. But there are a huge number of people in between who could pick it up if or not if the conditions were right.

Take me for example. I'm a cyclist, I do both road and off-road but the MTB is where my heart really is. However, I could have done pretty much any outdoor activity and enjoyed it just the same. And even indoor ones - there are loads of things I'm interested in (e.g. martial arts, to name one) that I could have done. But I was never really exposed to those things, I didn't know where to start, I didn't know other people who did them, so I never did. A good example is Rugby. I think I could have been pretty good at it, but attending an English state school we did no more than a taster series of 7s. Had I grown up in Wales, and done it in school, I might have progressed to a decent level.

Now I am ok with this generally because I was lucky enough to find fitness activities that I enjoy and it was easy for me to pick it up and take part. But if I hadn't had the opportunities (my parents used to ride recreationally, and I met friends who MTBed at college), the opportunities (my parents mostly funded my first entry level bike purchase, and I had decent riding nearby) then I would not have taken it up.

My point is that the environment in which you grown up has a huge effect on what you end up doing - because you do the things that you can 'see yourself' doing. And if people of either gender don't 'see themselves' doing it then they wont.

You run the risk of assuming that because female participation is low, that means that women just don't want to. But there are many reasons not to assume that, if you just think about it a bit. As a cycling male assuming there's no problem with female participation could be considered as sexism or at least gender issue blindness.

You can keep try molgrips, I don't think he will get it though!!!

That is one of the brilliant videos I watched with my seven year old daughter, Amber; she really likes anything like that and loves watching the Sophie / Lyon vids and anything with girls / females having fun on bikes.

Opportunity and exposure to mtb is a big issue. We live in Shropshire, surrounded by amazing places to ride and you rarely see young girls riding, but then their parents never give them the opportunity to be exposed to it. At best they get given a heavy piece of rubbish with ribbons and tat strapped to it when they could buy a decent second hand mtb for the same price. We would ride alone, but I put in the effort to find a decent second hand mountain bike for Ambers best friend so she could at least try it, I'm also the one who looks after the bike and we just keep it our house now as her parents wouldn't be bothered to do anything with it. This does mean that her friend had the opportunity to try biking, absolutely loves it and so now rides with us. I will be collecting them both from school today and we will head out to the trails for a few hours of fun!

Someone mentioned above that it could be harder for smaller girls as strength might be a limiting factor. I would say the opposite can be true once they've got a bit bike fit; biking is a great leveller. There are hills around here that some of my low to moderately fit friends can't get up without pushing the last little bit, my daughter at seven and on 20 inch wheels goes up that in fourth gear now and they wouldn't try and keep up with her down a fast technical trail, especially if its a bit slippy.

When we are on the trails, I've not had any of the appearance comments as some have had, usually its exactly the opposite; people tell her she is brave and amazing on a bike!

I just wish more girls had the support and opportunity to try something that could really change their lives. It makes me wonder if people have undertaken qualifications and started a club at a local school for example? I realise some staff at schools have done that, I mean people who have completely different careers... the flying squirrels group in the US looks amazing 🙂

You can keep try molgrips, I don’t think he will get it though!!!

That is the main issue across gender and race, a lot of white men don't get it and if white men don't get it and don't want to change things then nothing is going to change very quickly.

The easiest response is just "well maybe they (insert race or gender) just don't want to do it"

@Bedmaker, isn’t the question why do they want to do different things? Is it ‘genetic’ as someone suggests, or is it because society expects them to like different things. I know my mother-in-law doesn’t understand why the wife took up riding and isn’t that impressed that my 2 year old loves her bikes more than her toys.

They might not have been subject to conscious bias from society but it’s there. The same as a lot of my friends and colleagues Donna understand why my wife went back to work after having twins and I chose to stay at home (or at least go very very very part time) to look at them. No other guys at work would even consider this because ‘it’s not the normal thing’ ( and I work in a job that is 50:50 male and female and there is no gender bias from a work point of view).

Personally I think it’s more about social norms and expectations rather than a biological cause. And us (as parents) are the people that can help change this.

But what do I know as a 40 year old guy? If any women on here who have first hand experience think otherwise I’m inclined to believe them.

We’re going to experiment with our boy/girl twins and expose them to the same things and try not to push any gender stereotypes (if we can) on either of them and see what happens.

That is one of the brilliant videos I watched with my seven year old daughter, Amber; she really likes anything like that and loves watching the Sophie / Lyon vids and anything with girls / females having fun on bikes.

Opportunity and exposure to mtb is a big issue.

This in a nutshell! It is a lot easier to imagine yourself doing stuff, if you see other's who look like you, doing it too. 15 years ago I started biking, encouraged by my PhD supervisor (and in an act of rebelion against an ex bf who restricted my love of the outdoors!), and in doing so met p20 who loved bikes and exposed me too it further, could advise on stuff, show me how to ride features and mend my bike! There was one other regular lady as part of our group, but really she was one of very few female mtb'ers who I knew. It really has been only in the last 5 years that the profile of female riders has had a lot more exposure (e.g. womens riding videos on YouTube etc), more womens only events have cropped up etc etc, that for many more girls and woman can see that riding can be for them. Even for an 'old timer' like me I still regularly remark on how great it is to see more womans groups/events/videos etc. For 7-year olds like Amber, this is brilliant as it already is becoming more normal, and the growth of womens cycling with hopefully continue to increase. I have already thanked STW mag a lot for what they do to promote woman's cycling. Whereas even now you can pick up some months issues of some of the highstreet mags you find in WHSmith and see no woman at all in it!

The easiest response is just “well maybe they (insert race or gender) just don’t want to do it”

Exactly. The most common counter to the police shootings of black people I see in the comments is 'well maybe if they did what they were told they wouldn't get shot'. An easy way to blame others and never have to admit you were wrong.

Anyway. It's extremely difficult to unpick nature Vs nurture. Active suppression is easy to spot, but social conditioning is much harder. If people are conditioned not to want to do the thing, then they'll never take it up matter how many how many times it's offered in later life. But that might be simply because at age 2 all they saw was men riding bikes and women riding horses.

Question everything. Social conditioning is everywhere in life and is perpetuated by the thought or suggestion that 'maybe girls just don't like it'. Maybe we will never get 50/50 participation - fine, but what you must never do is ASSUME a girl isn't going to like something just because only 20% of the people doing it are girls.

Molgrips

But why?

As you say a million and one reasons (sic). I didn't get to play rugby until Uni... turned out I rather enjoyed it (as a team sport)

there are loads of things I’m interested in (e.g. martial arts, to name one) that I could have done. But I was never really exposed to those things, I didn’t know where to start, I didn’t know other people who did them, so I never did.

I spent most of my teenage years doing martial arts and meeting (girls) there... I'm being a bit glib because really it was just about meeting people there though probably the ratio wasn't far off 50/50. Certainly the club disco's would have been less interesting if they weren't.

I got dragged into roady stuff through Toni . short for Antoinette (which was a very exotic name in NE lancs in the 80's)

My point is that the environment in which you grown up has a huge effect on what you end up doing – because you do the things that you can ‘see yourself’ doing. And if people of either gender don’t ‘see themselves’ doing it then they wont.

You run the risk of assuming that because female participation is low, that means that women just don’t want to. But there are many reasons not to assume that, if you just think about it a bit. As a cycling male assuming there’s no problem with female participation could be considered as sexism or at least gender issue blindness.

My son's mother, uncle and aunt grew up in the same house with the same family.
His aunt does any and every endurance/adrenaline sport on the planet... his mother and uncle nothing. (Camping on an organised campsite is an extreme sport for her)

All of them grew up in the countryside, next to a mountain and forests... but aunt was 10yrs younger. You can ride from their parents home to the ski/bike uplift without going on a road.

When he was younger Jnr used to try and get his mum to come with us, he still would but she just doesn't want to. We just booked the summer hols and he was still trying to get his mum to do something other than "lie on a beach" .. he'd like to Windsurf/surf and take the bikes out and beaches for us mean snorkelling or cliff diving .. his mum wants a sunbed and sand.

A lot of upset later we are doing sunbed and sand because nothing could get her on any sort of holiday we'd enjoy. Couple of years ago we met the Aunt in Ibiza and we spent our time on bikes/snorkelling and wind surfing/cliff jumping with his mums sister but we had to put up with a lot of unpleasantness due to him trying to get his mum to come along.

You run the risk of assuming that because female participation is low, that means that women just don’t want to. But there are many reasons not to assume that, if you just think about it a bit. As a cycling male assuming there’s no problem with female participation could be considered as sexism or at least gender issue blindness.

Yes because her usual excuse (women don't do that) was shattered by having her little sister along and her saying very unkind things to her sister.

In other words its not because I or he are male or have expectations of what is a male/female activity. Probably 1/2 his MTB mates are girls... most of the mums come along... Rachel and Becci are his hero's... no idea why not Tahnee ???

His mum is in my opinion sexist but apparently not because being female she's allowed to have an opinion on what women can and can't do???? I'm sexist because ..erm I have a penis.

But what do I know as a 40 year old guy?

Presumably you know all about it, because you're claiming society has brainwashed you into liking boring old biking when your real interests should be cross stitch, and reading chicklit or shopping or choosing scented candles or doing dance routines or whatever else it is you think society has brainwashed you out of wanting to do.

Or does gender brainwashing only work on women because men have the strength of character and wisdom to resist the brainwashing? If so, shouldn't we all be over on mumsnet mansplaining to them that they're interested in the wrong stuff and typically male interests are the 'correct' interests?

I have a son and a daughter. We leave any gender roles completely out of it and always have. All the toys are in one big lump and they can play with whatever they want. We don't tell them what to watch on youtube. Yet you'd know immediately from their youtube history which tablet belonged to a lad. He hasn't been brainwashed, it's his nature.

Lots of girls rode bikes when I was about 5-7. By age 11 there were none, by age 16 I was the only one (boy or girl) riding bikes for fun and to get around. For the rest it wasn't cool.

In our MTB club in 2005-2010 there were about 2 regular girls/women compared to about 10 regular blokes and a lot or irregular (in every sense) ones. The girls were treated no differently to the rest as far as I was aware.

2010 - 2012 roadie club there were no girls.

2012 onwards I've ridden solo for the most part, but there are currently substantially more ladies riding than there were even 2 years ago. It's a great thing.

My Wife will NOT ride a bike. I have had her out on the bike a couple of times but she doesn't enjoy it. She doesn't like the faff, the motion, the need to remember to do things at certain times (brakes, gears, etc). I wish it were different, but hey ho. My daughter (3.5) likes her bike, but likes climbing more.

Question to any ladies (or anyone that can answer I suppose) - from my anecdotal evidence, women do seems to spend much more time in the drops than men do. Why is this? I don't spend much time in the drops as it hurts my lower back over a long period and only tend to do it into a headwind or when descending.

Maybe these women aren't so hung up on looking "pro" and hence ride a bike that actually fits them.

Or maybe they don't have a beer gut getting in the way.

Or does gender brainwashing only work on women because men have the strength of character and wisdom to resist the brainwashing?

I dunno about anyone of the other men in my life but I learned the most about this topic from talking to actual women - my mum and my wife. And reading about it. But yes, it does apply to men as well. For example, my Dad wasn't into football. If he had been, there's a good chance I would be too.

from my anecdotal evidence, women do seems to spend much more time in the drops than men do. Why is this?

It is more common in women to have longer arms relative to torso, I think.

We leave any gender roles completely out of it and always have.

Yes, but society doesn't. It's what they see going on around them, not just what you do as parents. I like to watch cycling, so there's lots of men riding bikes on telly. I do watch women's cycling when it's on but it's not on a lot is it?

Do you watch motor sport? How many women doing that? How many lovely ladies standing by handing out prizes? What's a 3 year old going to take from that?

Yet you’d know immediately from their youtube history which tablet belonged to a lad. He hasn’t been brainwashed, it’s his nature.

Sample size of 1. No-one's saying that boys AREN'T going to like traditional boy things. But the point I am trying in vain to make is that some girls will like them too and not all boys will like them. So don't assume.

But yes, it does apply to men as well.

So why are you still riding bikes? If it's just something society has brainwashed you into just stop and get on with what you *really* want to do.

Do you watch motor sport? How many women doing that?

Yes regularly at grass roots level and I take my daughter and there are always women drivers and I always make sure my daughter actually talks to them so she can see women are participating. (I don't believe brainwashing works in this context but I'm willing to try it!)

But the question isn't why aren't women interested in Motorsport, I can't help that, what I can do is help *you* give up the boring stuff society makes you interested in like Motorsport and bikes and get into the things you really *want* to do. Like, craft and dancing and interior design.

I dunno about anyone of the other men in my life but I learned the most about this topic from talking to actual women – my mum and my wife. And reading about it. But yes, it does apply to men as well. For example, my Dad wasn’t into football. If he had been, there’s a good chance I would be too.

My Dad loved football and cricket... it was on the TV every bloody weekend. Hence why I got into cycling and outdoors stuff to get away from it.

I like to watch cycling, so there’s lots of men riding bikes on telly. I do watch women’s cycling when it’s on but it’s not on a lot is it?

You're obviously not watching our TV...
Priority for womens DH (not as fussed if I overhear the mens results) Red Bull letting the womens result slip before we watch is a bloody disaster! ALWAYS watch womens first... end to end then probably skip part of the mens..