In 20+ years of being an Alpine guide, I've never found brakes that are quite powerful enough for my liking. Im talking about long (20m+, 1200m+) descents where any brake I've ever had starts to overheat, lose power, squeal and complain, and basically give up.
From memory, the closest Ive had was the original Avid CODE brakes from about 10+ years ago. They were beasts. But then again, it could just be looking back with rose tinted spectacles.
It might also be that 20 years ago I was much closer to 70 kg than I am now (achieving the century is no longer a "that'd NEVER happen!).
My long-time go-to option has been Shimano Saint running 203mm both ends, typically with genuine Shimano sintered pads (the finned version are way too pricey to be using for every day guiding though), but even they are often not up to the job sometimes, when its time to put the hammer down.
That said, in the ideal, Id be looking for a brake that just works every time - and doesn't need constant faffing and maintenance to maintain powerful performance.
Anyone got any recommendations I've not yet tried?
Hope V4
Trickstuff Maxima
Magura MT7?
Trickstuff, probably. If you can stomach the price.
Depends how deep your pockets are but the Trickstuff range are supposed to be the most powerful I think.
I think my Code RSC come close. I'd imagine with 200mm rotors both end they'd stop me on a dime, I run them with 200/180 and they're all I need for the UK and they've been pretty reliable in the few years I've owned them. (but I'm closer to your 70kg weight than you are I suspect).
Magura MT7's have been pretty damn effective at slowing my enormous bulk.
Ferociously powerful. When I get back on my hardtail, the Shimano XT's I've got on it feel like a set of old V brakes
I've had them for a few years and all I've have to do is stick new pads in them
A 4-pot with DOT fluid and 220mm discs?
In today's market there are only really three to choose from. Hope, Trickstuff or Magura. Magura and Hope were rumored to be bringing out 6 pot brakes but things have gone quiet for the time being. The Magura's were called the Stigma 6 and the Hope's were called V6Ti. There was a company a while back called Gatorbrake which made an 8 piston brake but I've only ever seen one pair for sale second hand.
If money isn't an issue i'm sure these guys could make you some custom one off brakes.
https://beringer-brakes.com/en/
Truck stuff Maxima (or whatever the top ones are called) seem to be the ones. Not cheap but I’d love a pair.
They're not mega powerful but I love my ancient Formula The Ones (2010). They're just ridiculously consistent and durable- never had any noticable fade for them except for one time with shit pads, otherwise they just keep doing their thing. Light enough to put on an XC bike, powerful enough to put on a dh bike, excellent feel without grabbiness but power on tape when you want it, they're just ace. I'm literally running them with the cheapest pads on the internet, bought from aliexpress, and they still do the job better than most brakes- tried and tested for a week in the alps including the mega, and at the other end through 2 scottish winters.
Buuuut, parts are super expensive, and they're old, and if you buy the model before it's properly shit and the model after looks almost the same but is a bollocks to bleed and even the first version of the model I like had ropey diaphragm seals, and the parts while still available are ****-me expensive. Still.
The only problem with Magura is that the hardware is made from Play-Doh and the hoses are Mcdonalds drinking straws.
Trickstuff Maxima are probably the best / most powerful brakes out there. Long wait to get them and mega £££ though. Would have though Code RSC and Saints are probably the next in terms of power / reliability / availability of parts etc
Magura look decent but all the talk of plastic bleed / grub screws and expensive pads has put me off buying any so far
I think heat dissipation not power is your issue, you need the biggest rotors with the most metal/surface area maybe pad fins too, put air ducting like on a race car too (lol)! I think there's a 220mm+ rotor about now maybe with a couple of brake adapters they'd fit? Hope did some vented discs that Guy Martin used on a gravity cart, would need bigger Calipers too but I'm sure they would fit you out for a price. Please nobody mention frame / fork warranty to fit oversized brakes!
You can get 203mm vented Hope rotors, or 220mm extra thick 2.3mm non vented rotors. Hope are pretty damn good for reliability too.
I think heat dissipation not power is your issue, you need the biggest rotors with the most metal/surface area
This makes sense to me. Also, when possible, apply and release the brakes rather then dragging them all the way down. This will allow air to flow between the rotor and pads to help cool the surface of the pads.
Unfortunately you will just have to cut down the cheese..
or alternatively stop and make some raclette halfway down to cool them off. 🙂
Formula R0's are nice, but I still managed to cook them on long n steep plus they did let out a massive fart once after being driven up from the valley to the peak, the decent was "interesting"
Also, when possible, apply and release the brakes rather then dragging them all the way down.
I think the op knows how to brake! Seeing as he says:-
In 20+ years of being an Alpine guide,
Can't believe people suggesting hope brakes when the requirement was powerful.
From everything ive read the trickstuff maxima are orders of magnitude more powerful than any other brake.
I reckon sram code rsc with 220mm rotors would be a decent real world/nnot breaking the bank choice.
There is only one answer...
To be honest, they're overkill even with my 95kg bulk on the bike, but my god they are lovely to use!
Problem is going back to any other brake (I have several bikes), they can feel woefully inadequate by comparison...
Its probably no so much lack of power but overheating, the energy has to go somewhere.
heavier disks will take longer to heat up but also longer to cool down.... once the grease melts out of your wheel bearings you are done for.
@freeride_addict Hayes Dominions - they are the only brakes I have used that lack that exact feeling you are describing: things just really not working that well for the last 1/3rd of some massive alpine descents.
Given I haven't tried trick stuff, but I find Hayes absolutely remarkable for just doing what they should regardless of conditions, with modulation and not having to grab huge handfuls at the end of the run to slow me down.
Stupid grub screws fell out from the cross hair alignment thing, which is annoying, but apart from that a big thumbs up.
My riding buddy back in Switzerland got a pair too and would report the same.
organic pads are not fab, sintered are amazing in any conditions anyway.
“ Im talking about long (20m+, 1200m+) descents where any brake I’ve ever had starts to overheat, lose power, squeal and complain, and basically give up.”
As a few others have said, it’s not what people normally mean by power (ie braking torque and/or force multiplication) that’s the issue here, it’s the power to convert kinetic energy to heat that’s limiting things.
Hope V4 with vented rotors should do the job.
Thanks for all the feedback fellas and fellaresses. I did expect that I might get a forum lesson on how to brake, but it could have been worse - at least no-on tried to tell me about braking with only one finger, looking well ahead to anticipate the trail, dropping my heels, bending my elbows etc, etc. 🙂
It could be time to try out a 220mm rotor, and see how that goes. Trickstuff were on the radar for sure, but aside from the price, Id heard from other Alpine guides that while they perform great, they need a lot of tweaking and maintenance, which would be even worse than sticking with sh*t / overheating brakes to be honest when you are doing 5000mD+ a day in the saddle 6 days a week, the last thing you want to do is a full re-bleed every night!
Will defo go and check out those Hayes brakes - thanks for the tip off, sounds like well worth a look.
Magura look decent but all the talk of plastic bleed / grub screws and expensive pads has put me off buying any so far
I ordered a job lot of Magura pads from one of the German shops and they were cheap as chips. Superstar do pads for them too.
I’ve had a couple of sets of Magura’s prior to these and never had any issues with them reliability-wise. They’ve been bombproof.
Have a read of the brake reviews on NSMB.com, the TRP DHR Evi, Hayes Dominion and Cura 4 in particular. Even really impressed with the ppwer of the Curas although not had the chance to try them on longer descents. The TRPs with thicker rotors might suit you.
If you've got the cash for new expensive brakes, but not finned pads for your current brakes, something doesn't add up... Just use the money you would spend on the pads that are designed to solve the problem you seem to have? Mebbe in addition to new 220mm rotors.
IMO
when its time to put the hammer down.
Isn’t this the exact opposite of when you’d need good brakes? 😉
Hope are pretty damn good for reliability too.
Ahahahaha this guys a comedian.
Lab test here could be of interest - https://enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy/
Yeah you want vented rotors, I'd say.
Shigura ? if you don't like the Magura levers
julians
Full MemberCan’t believe people suggesting hope brakes when the requirement was powerful.
Yeahhh but at the same time, from the first post it feels a bit like the reason for wanting mad power, is so that you've still got good power if it fades. So maybe less initial power, but keeping that power working for the long run, could do the job rather than basically wanting an excess of power so that it can fade and still work when faded a bunch
Please nobody mention frame / fork warranty to fit oversized brakes!
Most 'big' forks these days are warranted for 220mm, I've got one for my Rockshox 35's but ended up sticking with the Guides and Shimano 203/180 rotors as I couldn't quite get it to line up (I think it might be 220 and my adapters would only work with 223/225).
Big disks possibly make the most sense, they can transfer much more heat to the air (surface area goes up with the square of diameter).
Same reason they're used on cars, in principal you can get all the power you want in a car by adjusting the servo, you need big disks and pads through to dissipate all that heat. Drive a car with disks that are objectively too small and it'll still stop quickly if you stamp on the pedal. But it'll fade coming down a steep hill.
Magura MT5 with the 1 finger HC lever and 220mm rotors will see you right. Monstrous power when you need it, but good modulation (feels like halfway between SRAM and Shimano I reckon), pads are easy to get (I'm using Uberbike sintered at £8 a set but there's also a new EMTB version with better heat management than their Race Matrix) and also cheap. Running mineral fluid means you can also stock up on fluid fir a season without water absorption.
Running mineral fluid means you can also stock up on fluid fir a season without water absorption.
DOT 5.1 fluid can cope with high temperatures better than mineral fluid. Obviously, you need to keep it in a sealed container, but the water absorption thing is massively exaggerated.
However, I think the OP's problem is the pads overheating rather than fluid boiling. The only way to fix that is to improve the heat dissipation and try different compound pads.
DOT 5.1 fluid can cope with high temperatures better than mineral fluid. Obviously, you need to keep it in a sealed container, but the water absorption thing is massively exaggerated.
However, I think the OP’s problem is the pads overheating rather than fluid boiling. The only way to fix that is to improve the heat dissipation and try different compound pads.
I agree with this. The fluid will make a minor difference. And boiled fluid tends to be catastrophic, it doesn't cause fade, it just pulls to the bar and you're f***ed (and will probably have to put new seals in and maybe bleed them).
And DOT fluid will last year's in the bottle before it absorbs enough water to be an issue.
As for pads, organic pads fade. It's just their nature, the organic compounds get hot and turn to gas or burn. Adding kevlar etc makes then last longer in the wet and grit but doesn't do much for the fade. To deal with heat you need sintered pads.
The tandem folk did some testing on the most heat resistant brakes and hope vented with sintered pads came out best
Magyar mt7s with proper magura pads. I found Uber pads worked ok but wire quickly and squealed horribly. Magura just worked, well.
I too would be of the biggest rotor, cooled/finned rotor and pads is a priority over a particular brake.
Brakes wise we've MT5's and my son had one day in the Alps on Swiss DH track, third run, running nearly dead pads on a brake we hadn't bled for a year - funnily enough the paint actually burned off the pad backing they got that hot... Other than a couple of crash damage issues they've been faultless. Still like a stick in the spokes.
It sounds like your riding is pretty full on, in both intensity and quantity. Nothing survives working as an outdoor instructor IME, it just gets hammered. It is hard to remember that at times - I used to get frustrated by how quickly boots or jackets wore out, but that's just the cost of the job.
Not tried them so can't vouch for them but the Uber finned pads have the fins on a seperate plate so you only replace the friction plate and dont' have to buy new fins each time.
Not tried them so can’t vouch for them but the Uber finned pads have the fins on a seperate plate so you only replace the friction plate and dont’ have to buy new fins each time.
because of this design , they can also rattle like hell. depends whether this bothers people or not.
What you need is some Magura Gustav brakes. Job done!!!
In all seriousness bigger rotors - I never understand why people, especially those that live and ride in hilly areas, have smaller rotors. I fitted 205mm discs front and back a few years ago to my main bike and have done ever since. Repeated hard stops? No problem!
Got code RSCs on the cheat bike with 220 rotors up front. They're pretty impressive. But they're not the V4's with vented rotors on the alpine. They're truly superb. If we weren't saving for a new house I'd have the codes on ebay by now.
I reckon sram code rsc with 220mm rotors would be a decent real world/nnot breaking the bank choice.
I'm running Code RSC's with Uber E Matrix pads (my bike isnt an ebike) in each end, using Magura MDR-P discs in 220mm front and rear, using the Magura QM45 mounts.
Brakes feel great, I like a solid feeling brake that doesnt wonder from my BMX ubrake days and these do that and stop on a dime! I noticed Danny Macaskill used the MDR-P on the front of his bike for the slab video.
Another thing some of the tandem folk did in the early days of discs was to use a motorcycle trials calliper
I reckon you could mod a brembo motorbike calliper + 320mm disc onto a fork without too much issue 😀
Problem then might be getting it up to temperature!!
Personally I would use some temperature paint on the back of the pads, disc and caliper.
See what your issue is and decide a solution. It may be pads with a higher operating temp, it may be heat dissipation etc.
Pad friction falls rapidly outwith a temperature range
The fact they are working, then start to lack power would point to a temperature issue (assuming the lever feel is remaining constant). If that is the case you need to decide if you are going to attempt to keep the current pads cooler, or switch to a higher temp pad compound. Pads with a higher operating temp normally have reduced friction at lower temperatures.
Although I personally hate the multiple bike standards I do wonder if we are approaching the point bike disc brakes need a new standard for extreme DH and E bike use.
Personally I would use some temperature paint on the back of the pads, disc and caliper.
See what your issue is and decide a solution. It may be pads with a higher operating temp, it may be heat dissipation etc.
All very good, and fine for cars (and presumably motorbikes) where brake pad vendors specify temperature operating range for their pads and have a variety of pads available for a variety of temperature ranges, but as far as I know no mountain bike brake pad manufacturer publishes this kind of data for their brake pads, all you get with bike brake pads is some kind of wooly "works well at high speeds and high temperatures" statement.
The only time I have had total brake failure has been at Pila, and it has happened twice, and both in exactly the same spot; a couple of hundred yards from point where the trail ends and you pop out onto tarmac at the very bottom. Both times I went non-stop from the top of Chamole to the bottom. In both instances the mode of failure was the same. Lever to bar and no amount of pumping changed anything. 30 seconds of "stream cooling" sorted it and the brakes came back.
Bike: Scott Gambler
Brakes: XT 2pots
Rotors: 203mm front & rear
I have some Shimano 4 pots to fit to my 140mm trail bike. I don't think the issue will re-occur for me - I am older, and maybe wiser.
I have Guide REs on my Levo and they have been great on 2500m --> 800m descents. The bike and I must be nudging 120kg combined.
brake failure has been at Pila, and it has happened twice, and both in exactly the same spot; a couple of hundred yards from point where the trail ends
ISTR a very scary fast, loose runout with three successive braking zones from 50+kmh down to ~28.
30 seconds of “stream cooling” sorted it and the brakes came back.
Did you also "stream flush" the detritus from your undercrackers?
braking with only one finger, looking well ahead to anticipate the trail, dropping my heels, bending my elbows etc, etc. 🙂
😂😂 I was hoping for this.... blimey, short of 203 f/r Hopes or trickstuff (which are crazy expensive!!) where do you go!?!
DOT 5.1 fluid can cope with high temperatures better than mineral fluid. Obviously, you need to keep it in a sealed container, but the water absorption thing is massively exaggerated.
what counts as a sealed container? the screw up bottle it comes in? otherwise I've just wasted 2/3 of a bottle.
I also insists it lives in the house, not the bike shed with all the other fluids, for condensation reasons. (possible bollocks)
ayjaydoubleyou
Free Memberwhat counts as a sealed container? the screw up bottle it comes in? otherwise I’ve just wasted 2/3 of a bottle.
Yeah, it'll be fine. It's not best practice, but that's ok. Thing is even without a 100% perfect seal there's nothing driving air past the seals- no big pressure differences or anything- so it's OK. It'll soak up whatever moisture is in the air in the bottle, but that won't be much.
I don't think where you store it makes any difference personally for the same reason. The humidity of the air outside the bottle shouldn't ever matter.
Thing is even without a 100% perfect seal there’s nothing driving air past the seals- no big pressure differences or anything
Don't think this is true - if the vapour in the bottle goes into the fluid then there'll be a vapour pressure differential so vapour could work it's way in without air having to.
I put a bit of plastic film over the top then screw the lid on. I squeeze the bottle and nothing comes out so I think it's reasonably well sealed.
Hope V4's or Magura Gustav's
molgrips
Full MemberDon’t think this is true – if the vapour in the bottle goes into the fluid then there’ll be a vapour pressure differential so vapour could work it’s way in without air having to.
Only the water vapor in the air in the bottle will be taken up by the fluid and that's a microscopic amount- if I remember rightly even at 100% humidity there's under .1ml of water in a litre of air. So that's not going to suck in more vapour past even a halfassed seal in a flexible bottle. (the fluid will expand a little as well, I assume, but again by tiny amounts)
https://epicbleedsolutions.com/blogs/faq/what-is-meant-by-wet-and-dry-boiling-points-of-brake-fluid
The master cylinder reservoir in cars is typically vented to the atmosphere. "Wet" brake fluid is apparently defined as 3.7% water, which is typically 2 years exposure to the atmosphere (but will obviously vary according to humidity). From this figure, the higher performance DOT 4 fluids will still have a boiling point of over 200 degrees C after 2 years left in an open container.
Bike brake systems are sealed, so there is no transfer of moisture from the atmosphere to the fluid. If you flush and bleed them with fresh DOT 5.1 fluid, they should be good for years. The water absorption thing is hugely exaggerated.
According to manufacturer claims, Shimano fluid has a similar boiling point to fresh DOT fluid. Magura fluid has a strangely low boiling point, I suspect that is mistaken.
The (probably only theoretical) concern with mineral oil is that it does not absorb water like DOT fluid, so any water in the system will pool at the lowest point, which is the caliper, which is also the hottest part of the system. In DOT fluid, if moisture does get into the system (for example, if you pressure wash your bike and blow water past the caliper seals), the water will be absorbed by the fluid and distributed throughout the system. It will reduce the boiling point, but only by a small amount. With mineral oil, because the water isn't absorbed into the fluid, it will still boil at 100 degrees at atmospheric pressure, which is much lower than wet DOT fluid. So, if water actually does get into the system, mineral oil is probably worse than DOT.
I personally think this is extremely unlikely to happen unless you abuse your bike horribly, but the theory that DOT fluid goes bad after a few months and that mineral oil has a higher boiling point just doesn't hold up. They both work fine if you don't go doing anything really stupid. I have a mixture of Hayes, Avid, and Shimano brakes on my bikes. They all work fine (but I don't ride in the Alps, so not much chance of boiling the fluid, even if I filled them with tap water).
Formula Cura 4 must be up there with the best, they seem to be quite rare so don't get many mentions. Even the Cura 2 pots are meant to be incredible so the 4's can't be far off Trickstuff but considerably cheaper. Formula also seem to be very reliable.
There was a company a while back called Gatorbrake which made an 8 piston brake but I’ve only ever seen one pair for sale second hand.
I have a set on one of my cargo bikes, 230mm rotors front and rear. Horrible levers that you could fit all your fingers on but I just want to be able to stop when loaded up with me (90kg + 2 25kg kids)
Loic Bruni likes his brakes
https://www.magura.com/en/components/news/2018/development-story-loic-brunis-lever/
Give me Bruni's paycheck and I'll tell you how awesome Magura brakes are.
I won't mention the self tapper wood screw in the bar clamp or the plastic lever body with more flex than your Apollo V brake levers.
Are the V4s noticeably more powerful than the E4s or do they just deal with heat build up better. Toyed with the idea of swapping my E4 caliper for a V4.